Audioquest or Cattails?

[boe]

I can get some audioquest bedrocks for about the same price as cattails for my front speakers. My fronts are VonSchweikerts with biwire connectors and may amp has biwire connectors on it as well.

Thanks - total price about $450 either way for two pairs (4) of 10 foot cables.

 

[jaxvon]

So...why would you spend that much money on speaker cables? Save yourself some money and get some speaker cable from Impact Acoustics,Blue Jeans Cable,Cobalt Cable, or River Cable. Now, both Cobalt Cable and River Cable make a lot of their stuff out of Belden and Canare cable, stuff you can get much cheaper from Blue Jeans or Westlake Electronic. For example, RiverCable's Starflex SPX is just a spiffy looking version of Canare's 4S11 Star-Quad Speaker cable.

For terminations, check out Parts Express or Cobalt Cable.

If you haven't already, check out these articles.

 

[boe]

Thanks - I read some of the articles and the responses on the forums but they got into some discussions that were more like electrical engineering 201 than an audio quality discussion - and there was a great deal of debate - no clear cut analysis by an impartial source with a final conclusion. I realize it isn't always black and white, I think the best would be a panel of 5 or more members giving ranks in different categories - the key would be an actual audition of the cables not just a benchmark of electrical tendencies they monitor. I do of course appreciate the electrical characteristics they measure as they can effect an different types of amps transfer.

I am open to other brands - I'm doing research on the ultimate and river cables thanks to your suggestion. The starflex gauges don't match the canares unless it is an aggregate since Starflex lists them as 11 gauge..

 

[jaxvon]

Yeah, the 4S11 is 4x14ga cable. When using a pair of 14ga for + and a pair for -, you get an aggregate guage of 11. This is how River Cable wires their cable (for a standard configuration). Also, if you check the electrical characteristics posted on River Cable's site and those posted by Canare, they match. Plus, if you are into biwiring, the Starflex can be used as a single cable solution.

BTW, while it may seem like electrical engineering 201, I would advise you to read on. I particularly recommend that you check out the Dunlavy Labs Thread. This explains the relationships between LRC and what you hear. It's long, but very informative.


River Cable Specs:

StarFlex SPX: Quad Cable Rules
for Pure Performance

* Conductor DC Resistance: 2.6 ohms/1000 ft
* Nominal Capacitance: 45 pF/ft
* 11AWG 4 conductor double balanced paired cable
* 14AWG annealed copper stranded conductors: bi wire

And the link to Canare's Specs. If you look, you can see they are electrically identical.

 

[boe]

Thanks - for giving more info - it is appreciated.

I did read through the forum posts of the face off but I'll admit it seemed like I was just staring at the pages not reading. It was like looking at a list vs. a paragraph - so many specs tossed back and forth made it hard to follow. The article listed above was worth the read as you say although some of the items might need an * or two since I don't believe all of the items listed were completely black and white.

I tried the DIY cables but I'd prefer something more secure than I make. (Funny since I make my own phone, data and cabletv connections all the time. As I get older I'm starting to appreciate better fittings such as the snagless molded pre-made cat5 cables.

The ultimates got some pretty good reviews and are a lot cheaper. I guess I'm looking for a comparison where they listened to the audio (hard to give metrics on) qualities as much as the conductive properties of the cables.

 

[gene]

We recommend the GLOB cable. It has batteries like the Audioquest and best of all it glows


You can also review the extensive articles and cable face offs we have done to assist.

 

[jaxvon]

If you're looking for that, you're not going to find it on this site. Not to be rude or anything, but Audioholics is all about measurements when it comes to cables. If you sit yourself down and really read the speaker cable faceoffs, you can see how the different electrical characteristics contribute to signal loss, high frequency rolloff, etc.

Now, Audioholics does have subjective reviews regarding speakers and amps, but not cables (well, they do rate the aesthetics).

It should be important to note that the electrical characteristics Inductance (L), Resistance (R), and Capacitance (C) are all based on sound science. The engineers that designed all the rest of your equipment rely on a very good understanding of the effects of these metrics. The same thing goes for the engineers that designed cables for companies like Belden or Canare.

If you ever wander into a major TV network, you'll find that they use Belden and Canare wiring. It's not because they're cheap, but because they demand the best signal transfer possible. For instance, check out the big-time customers Cobalt Cable serves...

This isn't to say that a cable cannot have a "sound", but the holding on Audioholics is that "Only poorly designed cables sound different". For example, the Goertz cable from the first Speaker Cable Faceoff had really high capacitance that caused a high-frequency rolloff. The effect was measureable and, if one had good enough hearing, audible. What hasn't been proven is the claim that cables introduce distortion. When used in audio, this is commonly referring to non-linear distortion (Harmonic). I could go on, but you're better off reading the articles in the cable info section of the site.

 

[boe]

Thanks for sticking in there.

I'm guessing for ee dropouts such as myself I'd want someone to spoon feed it to me with a chart and say here are the major factors resistance, capacitance etc.- and the score they achieved. Anything with a score of less than x in any of these categories is less than desireable. I realize some items such as build quality are somewhat subjective but if you see it comes with frayed materials, burrs or loose connectors it would be easy enough to make note of why it received a score of y.

e.g.
Brand model Capacitance Resistance Const Quality
audioquest XBR 85 70 80
monster ESX 80 75 75
MIT X22 90 70 70

You mentioned the "RiverCable's Starflex SPX is just a spiffy looking version of Canare's 4S11 Star-Quad Speaker cable" - is this true of the ultimate speaker cables as well? If so I would imagine I could save some money purchasing them over the Rivers.

 

[gene]

high capacitance that caused a high-frequency rolloff.

Actually the high capacitance will cause frequency peaking in amplifiers with a high unity gain crossing, and may cause instability problems in some amps. It will cause roll off in amps with high output impedance such as esoteric tube amps.

But yes, the bottom line is only poorly designed cables are sonically distinguisable. We plan on proving this in a controlled DBT next year after my new Home Theater room is completed.

The 4S11 cable is used in the River Cable Starflex. The Starflex IMO is the post cosmetically appealing cable compared to others such as Bluejeans and Ram Electronics version of this cable. However, the latter alternatives are cheaper. Since the wire is usually out of sight after installed, you may wish to save some cash and try one of the listed alternatives I mentioned.

Here is a list of cable vendors we recommend, some of which offer Audioholics readers discount incentives:

Audioholics Approved Online Cable Vendors

 

[boe]

Thanks for the info.

 

[jaxvon]

Whoops! Sorry for the missinfo (and thanks for the correction Gene).

To answer your question Boe, no, the Ultimate Speaker cable is a 10ga 2 conductor cable (last time I checked).

 

[boe]

Since they were mentioned twice, I rechecked their web page - I noticed the Blue Jean Cables can come terminated at a very reasonable price - BJC Ten White (5T00UP) (White jacket, 10 AWG)

Does anyone own these? Did you get them with the connectors already installed - what was your opinion of the quality?

Thanks!

PS - I should start a new thread for this particular topic please let me know.

 

[jaxvon]

I recall Gene stating that he plans on doing all the wiring in his new house (for speaker cables) with the Belden cable you mentioned. PM him if you wanna ask about that stuff. Also, there's a thread regarding Blue Jeans that can be found here.

Good luck. Keep the questions coming!

 

[mtrycrafts]

Thanks - I read some of the articles and the responses on the forums but they got into some discussions that were more like electrical engineering 201 than an audio quality discussion - and there was a great deal of debate - no clear cut analysis by an impartial source with a final conclusion. I realize it isn't always black and white, I think the best would be a panel of 5 or more members giving ranks in different categories - the key would be an actual audition of the cables not just a benchmark of electrical tendencies they monitor. I do of course appreciate the electrical characteristics they measure as they can effect an different types of amps transfer.

I am open to other brands - I'm doing research on the ultimate and river cables thanks to your suggestion. The starflex gauges don't match the canares unless it is an aggregate since Starflex lists them as 11 gauge..

There have been a number of DBT listening of cables published over the past 25 years or so. So far, no one has been able to differentiate between comparable cables, 12ga-16ga. Yes, 24ga and 16 ga can be differentiated

There is no interest in testing cables by impartial panels. Who would benefit from it?
Where are the DBT listening tests from cable makers to support their claims of audible superiority? They know there isn't one.