audiophyte needs specific upgrade advice

R

rembetis

Audiophyte
Hello audio mavens,

Now, I imagine these types of question gets asked all the time, but on just about every online forum I've ever attended there live kind, knowledgeable folks willing to help out, so hopefully some of those will spy this request and lend a hand. Forgive my long-windedness, I just like to be specific and thorough.

I'm a neophyte to the world of quality components now looking to upgrade my system one section at a time. I realize that isn't always the best way to go, because components should match up in quality and sound, but my bank account will not allow a wholesale upgrade. Nor will it allow a jump into the realm of the true audiophile, so please keep your suggestions reasonable. I also know the individual ear should decide, but my twin infants give me very little time to shop around, so I need a head start in the right direction.

I'm basically looking for recommendations on a pair of front speakers and possibly a subwoofer and center channel that will match my current AVR receiver well, but leave room and flexibility for the eventual upgrade. My price range is somewhere in the neighborhood of $1000. Here is my current setup (try not to laugh):

Denon AVR900 receiver (60W per channel, Pro Logic only)
Denon DCM 360 disc changer
Toshiba SD-4900 DVD/DVD-A player
Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble II w/passive subwoofer
Bose 301 bookshelf as rear

Here are a couple of my main considerations:
A) I am an avid collector of unofficial live music (soundboard, stage- or audience-mic'd) recordings, mainly improvisational rock but also jazz. Therefore, "presence" or an accurate reproduction of the "soundstage" is important.
B) These days, I am mainly playing my CDs through the Toshiba SD-4900. I don't know if the DAC is superior or what, but it sounds a hell of a lot better than my Denon changer. It also plays DVD-A, which is important because more and more "field recordings" are being made available in 24bit.
C) I don't need or want earthshaking bass (which would probably just scare the bejesus out of my twins) but I do want a well-rounded sound that can handle demanding film soundtracks. If this be done with floorstanding speakers alone, all the better.

OK, and here are my specific questions:
1) Aside from the occasional iconoclast, I've heard only wonderful things about Paradigm speakers. I definitely plan to audition something from their line, but what other manufacturers offer excellent quality-to-cost ratios and efficient speakers that would work well with a middling quality, low-power amp/receiver?
2) Does it make it sense at all to start with a pair of Paradigm Titans and than move them to the rear when I can afford higher quality fronts? I know about dipoles but am not convinced I need them.
3) I've heard you need to match the "timbre" of your fronts, center, and rear. What does this mean exactly and is there something on the spec list that would tell me this, or is it all about my ears?
4) Is it possible or worthwhile to improve the sound of a middling AVR receiver with a separate dedicated amp? Any recommendations?

Bountiful thanks in advance to anyone who has actually read this far and might be willing to offer some advice.
 
J

joelincoln

Junior Audioholic
1- Paradigm Monitor series is an incredible value. Also check out PSB.

2- A reasonable plan. Dipoles are not critical. This really depends on what you ultimately want to buy for mains/center.

3- There are no "numbers" you can use to match speakers except in the broadest sense. I would strongly recommend buying matching center and mains. The rears are less important but it does make a difference there too. The problem is due to the fact that different speakers (even from the same manufacturer) 'sound' different. If you have a different sounding center from the mains, as the sounds pan from side to side, you will notice a change in the sound that can be distracting and undesireable.

4- You have a reasonable quality receiver now. This would really depend on listening level. If you have a large/dead room and you want to listen to loud music, then you might want to consider a separate amp or a whole new receiver. This would also be true if you intend to drive speakers with low or difficult impedences. Does your current receiver give you all the features you need?
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Cambridge Soundworks speakers also have a generally good price/performance ratio. When I needed "cheap" speakers for a small room that woudn't be offensive in spite of their low price, I was quite happy with the old Ensemble III for many years. The Newton series bookshelves have had some good feedback here.

Matching center to your mains is important because the three speakers need to "blend" together to create a coherent soundstage and image. The ideal (from what I've read) is three speakers that are identical in frequency response down to the subwoofer cutoff, if that applies -- but unless you have good measurements you can't know that. Getting your center speaker from the same model series is the easiest way, as already mentioned. Otherwise, instruments in the center (and those that bleed from center to either left or right) will sound different in character (timbre, or tone). Also, dialog pans across the front will get weird in movies as Joe already pointed out. Matching the rears to the front, while desirable, is less critical; partly because our ears are less sensitive to the nuances of sound behind us, as well as less sensitive to front-to-rear pans (again, according to some reading I've done. YMMV.) If they are to be used mainly for ambience (hall sound in acoustically recorded jazz/classical music) matching becomes even less important, IMO.

If HT is not your thing (or a minor consideration) see if you can buy three identical speakers for the front. Not always possible, but worth a shot. Otherwise, try placing your center channel speaker vertically if you can. The horizontal placement gives poor horizontal off-axis behavior which can audibly compromise the sound. It's only that way to fit atop the TV! There's a reason most speakers are vertically aligned, after all. Has to do with "lobing" and stuff...you probably don't wanna know!

Peruse previous posts to this forum for more opinions on speakers. Can't argue with Paradigm and PSB suggestions. Also pick up a Consumer Reports; they tested speakers earlier this year. An inexpensive Sony model was a top pick!
 
Last edited:
R

rembetis

Audiophyte
Thanks much for your feedback Joe and Rip Van Woofer. Much appreciated. I think I'll try to audition the Monitor 7s and CC-370 from Paradigm. Unfortunately, I won't have a PSB dealer near me (I'm moving soon to CT, Hartford area). I have been relatively happy with my Cambridge Soundworks, given their cost and size, so maybe I'll give their floorstanding speakers a listen as well.

One last question, do subwoofers need to match the fronts/center as well?
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
rembetis said:
One last question, do subwoofers need to match the fronts/center as well?
No. Subs reproduce only a narrow range of low sounds that does not "overlap" with the other speakers. Assuming a decent quality sub, bass is bass. But balancing the output of a sub (not too much bass, nor too little, optimum crossover frequency, etc.) with the speakers can be a chore; if you can get an integrated sub/main system from the same mfr. you'll have an easier time of it IMO.
 
J

j-man

Guest
designer

Buy the B&W (Bowers & Wilkens) "DM" series speakers, they will sound great.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Quite a few occasional iconoclasts accept that speakers are a personal decison, and that Paradigms are fine speakers for those who like a little brightness to their sound.

Now, one mans brightness is anothers detailed.

Listen to all speakers in your price range before making a final decision. Pejudging based on what you hear from other people can lead to buyers remorse..
 
R

rembetis

Audiophyte
Well, I have to say, that certainly was a diplomatic and civilized way of being an iconoclast ;)

Actually, at this point, I'm leaning towards Axioms (specifically the M60 towers, VP150 center, and QS8 surrounds). Anybody got a strong opinion about them pro or con? (Unfortuntately, as a stay-at-home dad of twin infants, I simply don't have time to audition every speaker line in my price range. Fortunately, Axiom has a 30-day return warranty).
 
W

Westrock2000

Junior Audioholic
j-man said:
Buy the B&W (Bowers & Wilkens) "DM" series speakers, they will sound great.
I have a pair of DM302's (I don't know what the current version is, but they look like this)



Anyways I bought them as extra speakers. They were $250/pair. But when my Maggies had to go to the doctor after a unfortionant kitten mishap, I hooked up the 302's and did some extended listening. After about 45 minutes I would get a headache, it was my first experience with "listeners fatigue". Eventually I took them apart, pulled out the woofer and put a carbon fiber driver I got from PartsExpress on a buyout in there and ran it full-range. I was much more happier with this setup. Although it may have been the $0.40 caps and iron core inductors in the crossovers. Needless to say it reaffirmed my assertion that my $500 Maggies were the best value around. For $250 I guess they were OK, and I never listened to the larger tower models.

I would look at maybe Audiogon and see if yo can get something used, since it sounds like your a stickler for good value (who isn't!?!?). Go to search, type in the 3 first number of your zip code and see what comes up! Alot of my stuff is 2nd hand or demo'ed and it all works great!
 
zipper

zipper

Full Audioholic
I have the Axiom m60's & they're a great value.I have posted a review on this site. The Paradigm Studio series is an excellent choice,can't say as much for the monitors as I have only a short experience with them. Be aware that stepping up your speakers may require more power to fully enjoy them. From my experience an underpowered speaker,even some efficient ones, can sound bright,sibilant & bass-less at most volumes. I'm not trying to discourage you,just letting you know that whatever you decide on will probably not sound their best w/o proper amplification. As long as you realize that, you can enjoy them & know that there is room to grow with the same speakers in the future.
 
R

rocketman

Audiophyte
I agree that Paradigm makes excellent speakers for the money. I own a pair of Atoms, and at the $200 price point, they are hard to beat. Also, check out Energy speakers (also made in Canada). I own a pair of their XL-150 speakers ($200) and they sound great. The Atoms are warmer and produce more bass, but the Energy XL-150 is more detailed and brighter.

Consider also B&W DM series speakers, as already recommended. Their DM303 sounds great and is priced at around $300. It's hard to find a better buy. Also, I've read good things about Infinity's current line of speakers which use CMMD drivers. Their Primus 150 ($200) just got a glowing write-up in Stereophile magazine. I used to own their IL-10, which had the same drivers. The midrange is butter-smooth, and bass is ample from the CMMD mid-woofer.

Your idea of using the Titans as a front, then later as rear, speakers is a good one. Sure, they are not dipoles but they will give you fine sound and for multi-channel music, direct-radiating rear speakers are generally recommended.

As far as timbre-matching is concerned, there is nothing on a spec sheet that will tell you this. The safe thing to do is stick with the same manufacturer for your front, center, and rear channel speakers. Most manufacturers make sure that their speakers are timbre-matched by using the same drivers in all speakers (or at least very similar ones). They also "voice" their speakers by ear while in development, thus the term "voice-matched" which you will sometimes see. If you are going to buy speakers from different manufacturers, then your ears will have to guide you. When listening to sounds that pan across your front three speakers or pan from rear to front, make sure that the tonal quality does not change greatly. If it does, your speakers may not be well-matched.

You can improve the sound of a mid-priced receiver with a dedicated amp. However, you may need to spend alot. You could use the old receiver as a pre-amp if it has "pre-amp out" jacks in the back. Your best bet may just be upgrading your receiver to a 5.1 (or more) channel model, many of which are priced for less than $400, and many less than $300, which are still good performers - or you could invest more in a $400-$800 model which is likely to provide plenty of power and features.
 
Last edited:
R

rembetis

Audiophyte
Thanks, again, to the recent posters. I have a follow-up question that again stems from a) my desire to upgrade slowly but with decent results and b) my interest in the Axiom M60s, which are supposed to be excellent in all respects except deep bass. Any feedback would be most appreciated.

As mentioned in my initial post, I have been using the Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble II (satellites and passive sub set) as my mains, due to space and economic constraints. On the whole, they've given me what I needed at the time, with the exception of any real bass. This particular passive sub is reputed to be very placement picky, but regardless of position, it delivers very little real oomph.

Anyway, here's my question (forgive my lack of technical vocabularly to ask it properly). My receiver only has pre-outs for center and subwoofer channels, so a seperate amp to drive all channels is not possible. However, I have heard of some people using a dedicated, run-of-the-mill amp to drive a passive subwoofer. Would anything about the intrinstic design (crossover point, etc.) of a sat/sub system prevent me from separating them and using the satellites as rears and driving the sub with a dedicated amp to augment the M60s?
 
R

rocketman

Audiophyte
I guess much depends on whether you can adjust the crossover point should you decide to move the Sats to the rear.

Does your Cambridge passive sub have a crossover control? My guess is that it's likely not adjustable but fixed to match the crossover point they recommend for their accompanying Sats. But, if it is adjustable, that would help.

If not, perhaps you have an adjustable crossover in the receiver - though I doubt your present model, a Pro-Logic model, has one.

Even if there is no adjustment either way, maybe simply adjusting the sub's low-pass frequency control may help. If the Axioms reach lower into the bass region than the Sats (which is likely), running both full-range with no crossover, while simply dialing in a lower low-pass frequency is possible.
 
R

rembetis

Audiophyte
Thanks much for your reply, Rocketman. You are correct in assuming that neither my sub nor my receiver has crossover control. I take it from your reply, though, that it's at least possible to use a separate amp to drive a passive sub and get some better results. Forgive my ignorance (the term "crossover point" has been in my vocabularly for, like, two weeks), but what exactly do you mean by "dialing in a lower low pass frequency"? How would this be accomplished, and would it be a function (or feature) of the amp used to drive the sub or the receiver, or both?
 
R

rocketman

Audiophyte
The "Low-Frequency Crossover" control on the back of some powered subs, like my Velodyne CHT-8 (Inexpensive by the way at only about $350 list) is actually a control knob labeled with frequencies from 40-120 Hz. It actually governs the operating range of the sub. Mine is "dialed in" or set at about 120 Hz (high on the scale) because I have small satellite speakers. If your sub has this control, you can vary its setting depending on which speakers you use with it. But, it's not really a true crossover in itself.

With no other crossover, you are actually running your sats then at "full range", with the natural roll-off of your sats sort of acting as a crossover. The problem with this arrangement, that is, with no crossover in your receiver and none in your sub (perhaps) is that you are feeding full-range signals, including low frequencies to your satellites. Even though your sats may naturally roll-off the lows at, say, 90 Hz, they may still be straining to produce bass.

The control mentioned above does not solve that problem but merely sets the subs operating range. So if you set it at, say, 100 Hz, and your sats roll-off at 90 Hz, you kind of have a smooth transition from sats to sub. But again, your sats are still being fed full-range signals.

With a true crossover, also called a "high-pass" crossover, you are only sending certain frequencies to your sats. Let's say you have one (in the sub or your receiver) and set it to 100 Hz. That means that the sats are receiving input at only 100Hz and above, sparing them from producing low-frequencies better handled by the sub.

You may have such a control in your passive sub, but it may be non-adjustable. When you use speaker-level hookups (ruuning speaker wire from your receiver to your sub, then to the sats) the sub likely uses a fixed internal crossover, and since your system is a Cambridge and was packaged together, the manufacturer may have chosen a crossover that fit best (maybe 120 Hz in the case of very small sats).

Running a seperate amp to your sub won't change any of this, unless your amp has its own crossover. Even if you buy a home-theater amp with 5 channels, it probably won't have a crossover because that's a function of a pre-amp (or the pre-amp....ie "control" section of a receiver). So I doubt that using an amp to drive your passive sub will change anything.

Keep in mind too that many new home-theather receivers have crossovers that may not be labeled such, but rather are enabled when choosing your speaker setting. For example, choosing "small" (as in small sats) engages the crossover in the receiver, which may be fixed at, say, 80 Hz. Or, some receivers do actually allow you to adjust the crossover frequency. For a pair of Paradigm Titans, for example, you probably could dial-in (adjust) your crossover to 60 Hz, since the Titans have a 6.5 in woofer and can handle bass down to 50 to 60 Hz or so with no strain.
 
R

rembetis

Audiophyte
Ahhh... much clearer now. Thank you kindly for your detailed reply. I guess the easiest thing would be to just keep the sats and sub wired in series (if that's the right term), i.e. as intended by the manufacturer. That way I'm not messing with their intended crossover point, and still getting some bass to augment the M60 mains, thought not the deep rumble. Soon enough, hopefully, I will upgrade to either a newer receiver (with bass management) or a sub, or both. This was just intended as an interim plan anyway...

thanks again for your help.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top