Audioholics OOPS?

[zumbo]

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/avhardware/audiovideosetup.php
"DVD Player setup:"



"Bass Management: Large/Small speaker settings. Only one component should handle bass management. Receiver, DVD player or another specialty component such Outlaw’s ICBM. If another component is handling bass management set all speakers to large or turn off bass management.
S/PDIF: Use your DVD player’s digital audio output only (coax or optical). Do not use the RCA stereo output if you already have the digital output connected to the receiver."

Using dvd-a/sacd 5.1, you need to set bass management in the dvd player due to the fact you are bypassing it in the receiver when choosing m/c in.

Also, the bass management in the dvd player is only used with the analog output. It is bypassed with the digital out.

 

[j_garcia]

I think what they meant for setting speakers to large only applies to using something like an Outlaw ICBM, which would subsequently handle the bass management for all channels (selectable per channel) prior to going to the pre/pro or receiver. So you WANT those channels to be sending a full range signal to the ICBM.

For the second part, you don't need to use the RCA connections for DVDs if you are using a digital connection, but you can use it on another input for odd cases like additional zones that accept only stereo analog inputs. You wouldn't connect both RCA and digital to the DVD source because it will only use one or the other; my receiver gives priority to digital so RCA would be ignored.

It isn't 100% clear, but it is more or less correct.

 

[RLA]

Using dvd-a/sacd 5.1, you need to set bass management in the dvd player due to the fact you are bypassing it in the receiver when choosing m/c in.

Keep in mind that this is true if your pre/pro or receiver doesn’t have analog
BM capabilities

 

[zumbo]

I think what they meant for setting speakers to large only applies to using something like an Outlaw ICBM, which would subsequently handle the bass management for all channels (selectable per channel) prior to going to the pre/pro or receiver. So you WANT those channels to be sending a full range signal to the ICBM.

Not if you are using sacd/dvd-a with small speakers.

For the second part, you don't need to use the RCA connections for DVDs if you are using a digital connection, but you can use it on another input for odd cases like additional zones that accept only stereo analog inputs. You wouldn't connect both RCA and digital to the DVD source because it will only use one or the other; my receiver gives priority to digital so RCA would be ignored.

The analog input is not ignored when you have selected m/c in on the receiver. You have to use "rca" analog connection for sacd/dvd-a. And, you have to use digital connection for DD & DTS. So, both connections are needed.

 

[zumbo]

Keep in mind that this is true if your pre/pro or receiver doesn’t have analog
BM capabilities

How can you tell?

 

[zumbo]

New Findings

I was trying to determine if the bass management was indeed bypassed for sure in my receiver while using m/c input. Here is what I discovered and how I came to my conclusion.

1) I set my speakers to SMALL in my dvd player menu. I set my sub to +6.(as loud as my player will allow)

2) I popped-in a concert dvd. I switched the dvd to 2.0 channel using m/c input on the receiver. Sub works and the dvd sounds better than ever.

3) I set my speakers back to LARGE in my dvd player as the link recommends, and using the same concert dvd set to 2.0 channel with m/c input selected on the receiver, it is indeed sending full range to my mains and the sub is off.

 

[RLA]

1) I set my speakers to SMALL in my dvd player menu. I set my sub to +6.(as loud as my player will allow)

For DVD-A and SACD there is a net 8-10 dB loss in the subwoofer channel
Many new DVD-A/SACD players take this into consideration and provide an adjustable gain. It varies but generally +6 to +12db will get you back into the calibrated ball park when using the analog direct MC.This is the reason you hear so many complaining about dry sounding bass using MC
Denon 5805 and 5803 have analog BM there are a few others

 

[zumbo]

Denon 5805 and 5803 have analog BM there are a few others

For 6k, I may log a BM myself.

It looks like the best solution is a dvd player with superb BM features.
Denon 3910 & 5910 universal players.
50/100(SACD) 40,60,80,100, & 120 multi channel

Yamaha 1500 & 2500 universal players. 60,80,100, & 120(SACD only)

I only researched the two brands. (bias, I know)
Denon gets the knod for dvd-a. Yamaha for SACD. While Denon does offer somewhat of an adjustment for both.

 

[shokhead]

For 6k, I may log a BM myself.

It looks like the best solution is a dvd player with superb BM features.

My 2805 has in the menu a Ent. in sub level. Isnt that helping the mc sub db?

 

[zumbo]

My 2805 has in the menu a Ent. in sub level. Isnt that helping the mc sub db?

I have looked through that manual 'til I am blue in the face. I don't see any m/c inputs.

 

[j_garcia]

Not if you are using sacd/dvd-a with small speakers.

No, the ICBM DOES the bass management, so you need to send it a full range signal (Large). That is (was) it's only purpose in life. It has been discontinued however.

The analog input is not ignored when you have selected m/c in on the receiver. You have to use "rca" analog connection for sacd/dvd-a. And, you have to use digital connection for DD & DTS. So, both connections are needed.

That would be two DIFFERENT inputs. I said you wouldn't connect both digital and analog to the SAME connection, such as "DVD".

 

[zumbo]

No, the ICBM DOES the bass management, so you need to send it a full range signal (Large). That is (was) it's only purpose in life. It has been discontinued however.

I understand that. But, the way the link reads, you shouldn't use the bass management in the dvd player and the receiver. You most certainly should for dvd-a/sacd if your speakers are not full range.

That would be two DIFFERENT inputs. I said you wouldn't connect both digital and analog to the SAME connection, such as "DVD".

Yes you do. You have to connect digital(optical or coax) for dd & dts, and you have to connect analog 6ch out for sacd/dvd-a. You have to set bass management in the dvd player for dvd-a/sacd.

 

[j_garcia]

The "EXT IN" and digtial for DVD are two different source inputs is what I was getting at. On my receiver, like most I'm sure, I have either an assignable digital input or a dedicated analog input for each source such as DVD. You would NOT connect both the stereo analog to the "DVD" source input and then also connect and assign a digital input to that same source in the receiver. My receiver allows this and the ability to switch between them, but since it gives priority to digital over analog, the analog would never be used unless I manually selected it. "EXT-IN" is a completely separate source from DVD, the same as TAPE, CD, VCR, etc... are.

I understand that. But, the way the link reads, you shouldn't use the bass management in the dvd player and the receiver. You most certainly should.

ONLY if you use an ICBM is their statement true: The signal will go through the "EXT IN" on the receiver so bass management is already bypassed (in most cases). With the player, if it is not set to output full range signal, you will be sending a crossed over signal to a crossover which will again apply a crossover function to that signal, so you do not want to use the bass management function of the player - all main channels should be set to large. If you are NOT using an ICBM or other external x-over, then yes, you must use the receiver or player's x-over.

 

[zumbo]

The "EXT IN" and digtial for DVD are two different source inputs is what I was getting at. On my receiver, like most I'm sure, I have either an assignable digital input or a dedicated analog input for each source such as DVD. You would NOT connect both the stereo analog to the "DVD" source input and then also connect and assign a digital input to that same source in the receiver. My receiver allows this and the ability to switch between them, but since it gives priority to digital over analog, the analog would never be used unless I manually selected it. "EXT-IN" is a completely separate source from DVD, the same as TAPE, CD, VCR, etc... are.



ONLY if you use an ICBM is their statement true: The signal will go through the "EXT IN" on the receiver so bass management is already bypassed (in most cases). With the player, if it is not set to output full range signal, you will be sending a crossed over signal to a crossover which will again apply a crossover function to that signal, so you do not want to use the bass management function of the player - all main channels should be set to large. If you are NOT using an ICBM or other external x-over, then yes, you must use the receiver or player's x-over.

I think you may be missing what this is about. 6-channel audio-in for sacd/dvd-a. l/r/c/sr/sl/sub. All seperate analog inputs. Not analog l/r.

 

[j_garcia]

?? ICBM is specifically for multichannel analog, targeted directly at multichannel DVD-A and SACD market.

 

[zumbo]

?? ICBM is specifically for multichannel analog, targeted directly at multichannel DVD-A and SACD market.

You said "EXT IN" on your receiver. That is only l/r, correct? That is not 6ch.

Also, I am not discussing the ICBM. I don't have it. You don't have it. And I don't think anyone else here does either.

I understand how it corrects the problems I am discussing, but I am not looking to buy one.

 

[zumbo]

I had your receiver mixed-up with shokheads 2805.

 

[j_garcia]

You said "EXT IN" on your receiver. That is only l/r, correct? That is not 6ch.

Also, I am not discussing the ICBM. I don't have it. You don't have it. And I don't think anyone else here does either.

I understand how it corrects the problems I am discussing, but I am not looking to buy one.

I was thinking about it, but now that they have discontinued it, I'm wondering what, if anything, they will replace it with. The bass management on my 2900 sucks.... Sorry, not trying to argue about it

 

[zumbo]

I was thinking about it, but now that they have discontinued it, I'm wondering what, if anything, they will replace it with. The bass management on my 2900 sucks.... Sorry, not trying to argue about it

Are you using your 6 analog inputs?

I am not arguing at all. I am trying to get to the bottom of these issues. The high-end Denon stuff is the only thing I have found, over the last two days, that does anything to work-out these issues. My Yamaha 1400 bypasses bass management when using 6ch inputs. My Yamaha dvd-a player crossover is factory set @ 100 for a SMALL speaker setting. That sucks. But, it is my only option for dvd-a bass management.

 

[zumbo]

j_garcia
Your receiver looks to only have a 80Hz crossover point. I don't see if it bypasses that using the 6ch analog inputs. I couldn't find it for mine either. So, I did the following to determine it was bypassed.

I was trying to determine if the bass management was indeed bypassed for sure in my receiver while using m/c input. Here is what I discovered and how I came to my conclusion.

1) I set my speakers to SMALL in my dvd player menu. I set my sub to +6.(as loud as my player will allow)

2) I popped-in a concert dvd. I switched the dvd to 2.0 channel using m/c input on the receiver. Sub works and the dvd sounds better than ever.

3) I set my speakers back to LARGE in my dvd player as the link recommends, and using the same concert dvd set to 2.0 channel with m/c input selected on the receiver, it is indeed sending full range to my mains and the sub is off.

#3 is Audioholics recommendation(provided by another source) in the link this thread is about. In my case, and anyone else using mid-fi Yamaha, it is incorrect. The bass management needs to be set in the dvd player, as well as the receiver, for dvd-a/sacd playback using speakers that are not full range. This is assuming 6ch analog connection is made.