audio equalizer

[audiovette]

Hi everybody!
Since this is the best forum out there and you boys have so much experience and knowledge when it comes to AV, I need your recommendation regarding audio equalizer.
I have Denon 4802R, I know it’s not as good as many new receivers out there, but that’s what I have at the moment. I also have Axiom Epic 80 system and I am looking for a good audio equalizer for my system. I’m running an old CD player – that’s my next upgrade. Please feel free to voice your opinions.
Thanks

 

[zumbo]

Don't do it. I am not a fan of "coloring" the sound of a system. If you don't like the sound, seek equipment upgrades.

You can put pearls on a pig, but it's still a pig.

If your old cd player works fine, no need to upgrade.

 

[20to20K]

I agree with Zumbo...

...but even if I didn't I'm not sure you can easily connect an old-school
equilizer to a modern AVR even if you wanted to.

Those units used to connect via mainin/preout combos or tape2 monitor
in/out jacks which are not found on most modern components. I have a Denon 3805 and I had a 2803 before that and neither of these units allowed for an EQ connection. Most of these units have built in parametric EQ's that you can manually set and have the same effect as an outboard equalizer,
without the added signal paths and extra subpar electronics. The 3805 has one that automatically calibrates the right settings for you so when you connect a microphone...I'd be surprised if the 4802 didn't as well. This is, as Zumbo says, if you insist on "dressing up the pig" as he puts it.

I do have a 12 year old Denon 2 channel reciever that I have in storage that I don't use anymore that I used to connect my ADC 412x equilizer to via my tape 2 monitor in/outs. But that was then and I feel I've come a long way since then!

 

[audiovette]

DVD players

Yes I see your point. I was looking for a new equalizer not an old one. Out of these two DVD units:
Denon 3910
Arcam DiVA DV79
what would be your choice?

 

[Resident Loser]

NG on the EQ...

...at least insofar as your current set-up is concerned...took a look at the archived pdf @ that terrible(some have said) Denon USA site, and while the rear apron reminds me of an old manual cord-type switchboard, there are no facilities to wire an EQ into the mix...there are pre-outs that would allow you to wire an equalizer to an EXTERNAL power amp however. There is also no true "tape mon(itor)" that would facilitate THAT methodology. There are those curious "external in" jacks, but they do not seem to access the power amp inputs directly...soooo....sorry!

Now, as it happens, I happen to be a big proponent of equalization and in the use of tone controls generally...but, they are really two different things, designed for two different purposes; please don't confuse the two.

If, after you have done all you can do to maximize your speakers interface within your listening environment, things still aren't quite up to snuff, that's when it is time for EQing...they ARE NOT tone controls, nor should they be used as such...To be used correctly, they require calibrated pink-noise sources and measuring tools and, more importantly, they should not become gain devices.

What do I mean by that? you might ask...properly set-up, they should not raise or lower the overall loudness perceived, they should shape the sound to correct deficiencies...set 'em and forget 'em...thereafter, use your tone controls for minor tweaking of inferior sources or even when you lower the volume from your equalized set point. Yes, Virginia, EQ curves change as volume levels change...if your 1kHz 0dB reference point is, say 85dB, once you raise or lower that level, everything will be off...somethings more noticeable than others...You know, Fletcher-Munson and all the later follow-ups and refinements.

And please don't forget you'll hafta' EQ the fronts and surrounds and the rears...OTHERWISE sonic imbalances up the ol' wazoo...which is why separates are really the ONLY way to go, if you're a real nit-picker, if you have the room, if you have the ca$h...sooo...since your digital sources are at best a compromise and after all it's only HT(which as Marx alluded to, is an opiate for the masses), just use your gear, and the fuctions contained therein, to the max...

jimHJJ(...heck, it's only mechanical lizards anywho...)

 

[audiovette]

sound and equalization

Well, I was experimenting with Axiom M 80’s and I was not pleased with their sound. I was putting them in different places in my room and it did not make a big difference. The sound to me was muffled. I was thinking that maybe my old CD player is to blame – that still may be the case. I borrowed an EQ from a friend of mine and what a difference. The speakers came to live and the sound became clear, open and airy. What do you think is it the receiver or my old CD player to blame?

 

[MacManNM]

Eq

As I see it, there is nothing wrong with using an EQ to correct for room deficiencies. In 2 chan mode this can be very helpful and can help bring a system to life. The key is adjusting it for quality. 99% of the time your ears fool you and louder will seem to sound better. A good unit would be one like the BSR 3000 series with the manual and microphone. Another option is to look for a parametric eq. One of these will help you fix small dips and “holes” in your frequency response when listened to with the speakers and your spot configured. As far as the rest of the channels, I don’t think it’s worth trying to equalize the room for a 5 or more chan setup. You are better off upgrading to higher end stuff at that point.

 

[MacManNM]

Well, I was experimenting with Axiom M 80’s and I was not pleased with their sound. I was putting them in different places in my room and it did not make a big difference. The sound to me was muffled. I was thinking that maybe my old CD player is to blame – that still may be the case. I borrowed an EQ from a friend of mine and what a difference. The speakers came to live and the sound became clear, open and airy. What do you think is it the receiver or my old CD player to blame?

Neither. Its a combination of the room/speakers.

 

[MacManNM]

Also

If you want to "color" your sound, go ahead. The bottom line is if you like the way changing an eq makes it sound, then just do it. I had a buddy, who used to have every one of his eq's in the classic V shape for rock-n-roll. What a tin ear he has......

 

[Resident Loser]

Ok, it's Q&A time...

...why are you now displeased? Did the Axioms ever sound good? If so, has something changed...new gear, new furniture, a new rug...??? Did someone monkey with the receiver's settings? Tone controls?

If you EQ only the CDP, that's just a Band-aid...you're still gonna' have problems with other sources...you really should address it as a system problem...toeing the speakers inward toward your listening position should affect their hi-freq dispersion characteristics...wholesale "moving" can effect the bass response.

jimHJJ(...just lookin' fer clues...)

 

[markw]

After separating thee wheat from the chaff, it boils down to this.

Well, I was experimenting with Axiom M 80’s and I was not pleased with their sound. I was putting them in different places in my room and it did not make a big difference. The sound to me was muffled.
...
What do you think is it the receiver or my old CD player to blame?

In answer to your question, neither, dude. It's the speakers.

All speakers sound different and just because some people like one particular speaker, that is no guarantee that all people will like 'em. That's the problem with buying speakers based on what one reads on a website. One size does NOT fit all and you really can't make a decision on what's right for you by taking a vote.

 

[audiovette]

DVD and speakers

Well I think you are right. It comes down to the fact that I am not very happy with the speakers. I know there are so many different manufacturers out there. If you had $ 3000 what would be your choice? – just front speakers (floor standing) This way I could narrow down my search.
As for a DVD player I am down to 2 models
Denon 3910
Arcam DiVA DV79
What would be your choice there?

 

[zumbo]

B&W 703's.
Without a doubt!

 

[markw]

For HT, $3000 sounds like overkill for the front R/L speakers.

Maybe you should choose a direction here. Music or HT...

Sometimes, trying to marry a fine music system with a home theatre can be either very expensive or fraught with disappointment. If money is no object that's one thing but it wasn't for me. I wound up using two systems and even with my HT system, music was the determining factor, not movie sound. But, I set my financial levels a few $$ below yours so the compromises I chose to live with are not that glaring. All in all, it does extremely well with both considering the price.

http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/1606.html

But, my music system doesn't suck either, at least in my opinion. ...and it didn't cost a small fortune. By many standards, it's fairly moderately priced. To get a HT system that did music as well as my two channel system would have bankrupted me.

With HT, matching across the front three is fairly important. Purchasing a pair of mains for $3000 would mean that you wound (should) buy a matched center speaker, which would probably cost a pretty penny for these. Add this to your $3000 or factor that in with your original plans. You now either expand that figure upwards considerably or that $3000 now buys the front mains and a center channel.

As far as the other channels, well, that opens up anothe can of worms. For multi channel music they recommend direct firing (monopole) speakers that match the front three. For HT they recommend bipolar/dipolar speakers but the requirement that they match the fronts is less critical, although most people prefer to given the choice and scratch.

So, as you can see, it's not quite as black and white as you suggest. Every speaker is a compromise. Sometimes it bioins down to finding one that not only does what you like but finding onesthat don't do what you don't like.

What I would suggest is that you haunt every real* dealer in the area and listem to everything that falls within your price range and try to narrow it down to what you can live with.

*Real, meaning they offer a wider selection than the big box stores. Search out stores that sell B & W, PSB, Vandersteen and other names you don't see in the big box stores. If you are forced to buying by the net as a last option, be sure you can return them without much hassle. I can say that http://AudioAdvisor.com is good about this.

 

[zumbo]

But see, my idea is a little different. Use the B&W with your current sub for music. Would be nice with an external 2-channel amp. And, use your Axiom for movies.

 

[markw]

It's not a matter of right or wrong, Z.

All we can do is offer options. It's up to him to decide which direction he chooses to go.

...sorry if I sound like a fortune cookie...

but, yes, a separate power amp and speakers for two channel music only would be one way out of this quagmire. ...assuming the sub behaves lile a good sub should.

 

[audiovette]

DVD and CD players

Yes I have to agree with you here, two systems would be a nice choice. As a matter of fact I am much happier with Axioms when watching DVD’s. For some reason they do sound better in a 5.1 configuration. So for music I would need another pair of speakers and I am going to consider your suggestions. Assuming this what amp would you pick and what about my 2 DVD players?
Should I use DVD for music or should I invest in a separate CD player?

 

[markw]

Ssorry. I guess I totally ignored your original question.

If you're going to be using the CD/DVD player with a HT receiver, you can always by passthe DAC's in the players and use the one in the receiver.

Of course, if you're going to be ugoing SACD/DVD-A or simply analog from your DVD player for redbook CD's, then subtle differences may (or may not) be heard. My guess is they would be minimal and I reallty can't offer any advice the but I've always been somewhat partial to Denon products, but I might be a little biased. ...sorry...

As far as the amp goes, I'm assuming you mean a power amp since I grok you will be playing everything through your current receiver.

The power amp used would be determined more by the needs of the chosen speakers than the source. My Maggies required a fairly powerful amp to bring out their magic and a Rotel made it's availabilty known at just the right time. Remember, the point of diminishing returns kicks in here as well. I like to live right at the point where it comes close to leveling off.

If you chose more efficient speakers the need for lotsa power would be diminished greatly. A speaker with a sensitivity rating of 86 decibles requires four times the power of a speaker rated at 92 decibles to generate the same loudness level.

 

[zumbo]

For dvd players, I would stay with Japanese products. I use Yamaha, but it would be a toss-up for me between Yamaha or Denon. NOTE: This is just my opinion.

As for amps, I am not very brand loyal. I look for the bang/buck, warranty, build quality, availability, and customer service. I have found this with Adcom. But again, it's just one opinion.

 

[audiovette]

speakers.....

Thanks for all your input!
Zumbo--- how many speaker manufacturers did you listen to before deciding on B&W and besides 703’s what other speakers would you say are worth listening to.
This question is for all of you.