Audio/audible differences

[bogrod]

Hi - This posting is kind of an extension of a posting I made in the cd/dvd board.

First of all, as much as this is still and always will be a controversial topic of discussion, I'm not here to flame, or bait, or in any way disrupt the forum. I'm hoping that the responses can be friendly and informative.

With that said, still to this day I read anecdotal remarks, here and abroad, about differences between everything from cd's versus sacd's, digital/analog converters (i.e. the analog outputs of one player being better than another from the same manufacturer) DTS and Dolby TruHD being better than their "standard" (i.e. DTS and Dolby Digital on DVD) brothers, and on and on.

I'm aware that it's been established that people can legitimately hear differences between different speakers, and that people can hear a difference between solid state versus tube gear. I'm also aware that the debate still rages on, but that it still has not been established that anyone can legitimately tell the differences between interconnects.

But there are other areas, where people claim (again, anecdotal) that the difference they hear between, for example (but not just only), a DAC , is significant. But are these differences between all of these devices and formats not really significant, or maybe are in fact completely nonexistant? I guess when it gets down to it, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any kind of level-matched DBT's done with some of these more modern devices and codecs. Thanks in advance.

 

[jliedeka]

I read about a study comparing CDs with SACDs. After numerous tests, including re-sampling the SACD down to 16/44 they determined that the higher number of bits had no effect on sound quality. Where there was a difference, it was shown to be the mastering.

Under certain conditions, a solid state amp can sound like a tube amp. Bob Carver used to tweak amps to have a high output impedance and a little more 2nd harmonic distortion which made them indistinguishable from a certain tube amp (Conrad-Johnson IIRC). Any amp with high input impedance, low output impedance, flat frequency response and low noise and distortion should sound like any other amp meeting those criteria.

Any interconnect that is shielded enough for the environment should sound like any other.

Speaker cables can sound different under certain conditions. Too much inductance can cause a slight roll-off in the high end that might be audible to a teenager but probably not to anyone over 40. Composition of the wire is fairly meaningless, just its electrical behavior.

Speakers and the room have the most profound effect on sound quality.

Jim

 

[mtrycrafts]

... I guess when it gets down to it, I'm wondering if anyone knows of any kind of level-matched DBT's done with some of these more modern devices and codecs. Thanks in advance.

Difficult to test the codecs, especially in multi channel modes. DD and DTS were tried in the olden days but, again, it had problems with getting levels matched as DTS changed in the middle of the programs and from channel to channel.

What is your ultimate goal with this? Just knowing or what to buy or upgrade to?

 

[skizzerflake]

I think I can hear a difference between CDs and SACDs (aside from 2 vs 5 channels) but I'm willing to admit that it's just wishful thinking. The bottom line continues to be a double blind test and the fact that golden ears audiophiles are often so resistant to them is an indication that they're not sure themselves. Cognitive dissonance plays a strong role. If I just bought $1000 wires and you used the stuff they sell at Lowes, can I possibly NOT hear a difference?

 

[bogrod]

Thanks guys. Anyone have any info about level matcehd DBT's between DAC's? I read a ton of recommendations that device a's DAC is significantly better than device b's. Case in point (and, again, not trying to pick a fight) is that the Oppo BDP-83 SE's DAC's are of superior sound quality to the non SE's.

 

[bogrod]

What is your ultimate goal with this? Just knowing or what to buy or upgrade to?

I think it's more just for personal info. Again, there's a lot of recommendations and a lot of discussions about product a's internal component being better than the same device in product b's. I'm wondering how much of it is real versus something that may be imagined.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think it's more just for personal info. Again, there's a lot of recommendations and a lot of discussions about product a's internal component being better than the same device in product b's. I'm wondering how much of it is real versus something that may be imagined.

Well, you are on the right track then, being skeptical about recommendations.

I think your best bet is the search the archive, here and on google about dbt data. The Audio Critic certainly tested lots of audio components, DBT listening. Unfortunately they are not publishing now but some of it is on line:
http://www.theaudiocritic.com/cwo/Web_Zine/

and this:
http://www.matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm

there were others, but links are dead.

 

[3db]

I


Any interconnect that is shielded enough for the environment should sound like any other.

Speaker cables can sound different under certain conditions. Too much inductance can cause a slight roll-off in the high end that might be audible to a teenager but probably not to anyone over 40. Composition of the wire is fairly meaningless, just its electrical behavior.
Jim

I disagree. The only way cable inductance will make a diference is if you go out of your way and make a choke...ie coil many many feet of speaker around an iron bar. Thats it. The distributed induucatance in these cables are sooo small as to be neglible and teens WON'T be able to hear the difference.

 

[Knucklehead90]

One of my favorite A/B blind tests is this one - make sure you read the 'components' section for a detailed description of the 'A' and 'B' components.

Not many would give the lowly Behringer A500 an even chance against an amp costing ~10 times or more.

What I come away with is this: speakers make all the difference.

As for DACs - the sound quality differences between DACs are less than ever and most listeners cannot distinguish one from another.

 

[bogrod]

Thank you, Mtry and Knucklehead. I'm going to check out the articles here later on today. As far as DAC's, that is what I suspected was the truth. Again, I am glad I asked, because there seems to be a lot of discussion about the benefits of buying this versus that, and the improvement you will hear with the additional $'s spent, and so on.

 

[jliedeka]

I disagree. The only way cable inductance will make a diference is if you go out of your way and make a choke...ie coil many many feet of speaker around an iron bar. Thats it. The distributed induucatance in these cables are sooo small as to be neglible and teens WON'T be able to hear the difference.

10 meters of 12 gauge wire can have enough inductance that the signal is down 1 dB at 15kHz. That's theoretically audible. It's also an uncommon length for speaker wire, admittedly.

Jim

 

[3db]

10 meters of 12 gauge wire can have enough inductance that the signal is down 1 dB at 15kHz. That's theoretically audible. It's also an uncommon length for speaker wire, admittedly.

Jim

Thats what I'm saying......it will take very long runs to have the inductance take affect. For most applications, this is negligeable.