Arendal 1723 2V Subwoofer Review

K

kini

Full Audioholic
You make the Arendal to be some value leader and it gets trounced by the less costly Rythmik which are known in the industry for providing clean articulate base. Actually there are lots of subs that trounce this one for less. Id rather go down market for the same quality if not better bass that the Arendal delivers. It appears your going for snob appeal rather then real performance.
Maybe you forget or unaware that ID manufacturers sales are but a very small percentage of overall subwoofer sales. Rythmik is but a speck in overall sales with very few people even having heard of them.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
Maybe you forget or unaware that ID manufacturers sales are but a very small percentage of overall subwoofer sales. Rythmik is but a speck in overall sales with very few people even having heard of them.
Thats not quite accurate. Most forum members in most if not all audio forums have heard of Rythmik subs and their reputation. I wouldn't mind seeing a sales breakdown across all the major sub manufacturers.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Maybe you forget or unaware that ID manufacturers sales are but a very small percentage of overall subwoofer sales. Rythmik is but a speck in overall sales with very few people even having heard of them.
If by subwoofer sales you're including those with HTIBs, soundbars, Bose speaker sets, computer speakers etc you have a good point. Especially outside of the US.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
Maybe you forget or unaware that ID manufacturers sales are but a very small percentage of overall subwoofer sales. Rythmik is but a speck in overall sales with very few people even having heard of them.
And most subwoofer sales are random folks wandering into a retail store and buying whatever they have in stock. So no, those people won't have heard of Rythmik or any other brand because they just wanted a sub. They're probably only familiar with most of the general cast of retail brands. Klipsch, JBL, Polk, etc.
 
S

Schrodinger23

Audioholic Intern
You make the Arendal to be some value leader and it gets trounced by the less costly Rythmik which are known in the industry for providing clean articulate base. Actually there are lots of subs that trounce this one for less. Id rather go down market for the same quality if not better bass that the Arendal delivers. It appears your going for snob appeal rather then real performance.
I am in complete agreement here. You can get a pair of Rythmik F18s for about the same price as one of these. They have very very similar measurements and you would get better seat to seat variation by placing them across the room from each other. The sub reviewed here might have lots of features but so does the Rythmik subs. I think the Rythmik’s features are more useful being able to change damping, extension, etc. The app controls are nice, but they only might be used once. If you have Audyssey, then really the app isn’t needed.

The biggest feature difference though is that the Rythmik is a servo sub. This corrects for things that others can’t, like the sound waves in the box. Having stiffer walls and better bracing can help, but there is still influence on the woofer itself. The servo design removes this influence.
 
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K

kini

Full Audioholic
Thats not quite accurate. Most forum members in most if not all audio forums have heard of Rythmik subs and their reputation. I wouldn't mind seeing a sales breakdown across all the major sub manufacturers.
All the members of all the audio forums in the world still represent single digit audio consumers. Audio enthusiasts are a rare breed. This is why the B&M stores have vanished and sales soundbars have proliferated.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
All the members of all the audio forums in the world still represent single digit audio consumers. Audio enthusiasts are a rare breed. This is why the B&M stores have vanished and sales soundbars have proliferated.
I echo Loveinthehd setiments on this. Now people who are looking at Arendal will most likely have heard of other brands such as Rythmik, SVS, and HSU. Thats what I meant "in the industry" . If people are looking for soundbars etc, then yes, I would agree with you. Are you able to publish your claims? It would be interesting to see.
 
J

jeffca

Audioholic Intern
Rythmik is down market with respect to Arendal. If you want the most raw SPL for your dollar, sure, it is a viable alternative. But you don't get the build quality, feature set, aesthetics, or protection that you do with Arendal. And even then, there are better alternatives to Rythmik if all you care about is SPL. Yes, a Nissan Sentra will get you to the supermarket just as well as a BMW M5, but the people shopping for these cars are looking at different attributes rather than just mere transportation.
Down market? Really? I own 4 Rythmik subs and their build quality is not in the least lacking. When you compare the prices between the two models I mentioned, the only thing you aren't getting with the Rythmik is DSP EQ. What you are getting is a servo system that dynamically starts and stops the cone on a dime. You're not getting that with any other sub on the market. I use Dirac Live so any DSP in a sub is of no use to me.

Also, I have seen measurements for Rythmik's cheapest sub and it is up to the task...even more so when you have more than one.
 
J

jeffca

Audioholic Intern
Arendal has 1723 2S model if you are looking sealed model. It has the same dual opposite 13,8" drivers and 1200w amplification. Sure it won´t be cheap as sent from Europe.

It being a sealed sub is nice, but that's not the only point. The Rythmik servo system offers much greater control over the cone as well as offering consistency as the driver ages.

Here's what Brian Ding, the head of Rythmik wrote me:

"I have told my customers that subwoofer break-in is mainly for both “spider and surround”. They need a bit of stretching to become “seasoned”.

The servo improvement is it reduces the effect of the changing parameters by a factor of 3x. For instance, the spider behaves differently when at high volume and when at the low volume. Servo reduces the differences between these two extreme levels and makes the sound “coherent” regardless at any level. This improvement also includes long term changes and unit-to-unit variations."


Unless there is another servo sub manufacturer on the planet, you aren't getting this from anyone else.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Down market? Really? I own 4 Rythmik subs and their build quality is not in the least lacking. When you compare the prices between the two models I mentioned, the only thing you aren't getting with the Rythmik is DSP EQ. What you are getting is a servo system that dynamically starts and stops the cone on a dime. You're not getting that with any other sub on the market. I use Dirac Live so any DSP in a sub is of no use to me.

Also, I have seen measurements for Rythmik's cheapest sub and it is up to the task...even more so when you have more than one.
I'm not saying Rythmik's build quality is bad, but it just isn't on the level of Arendal, period. As for a servo system that controls a cone, any decent driver does that and does not need or benefit from assistance from the amplifier. A comparative glance at group delay measurements vs Rythmik subs will tell you that much. As for measurements for Rythmik's cheapest subs, I haven't seen any, and I don't think any are publically available.
It being a sealed sub is nice, but that's not the only point. The Rythmik servo system offers much greater control over the cone as well as offering consistency as the driver ages.
Unless there is another servo sub manufacturer on the planet, you aren't getting this from anyone else.
Yes, you are getting servo-controlled subs from other manufacturers. Infinity used to do it, Genesis, Velodyne, Paradigm. Paradigm used to have servo-controlled subs but stopped doing it, likely because it just wasn't useful anymore. Again, as for cone control, compare group delay of Paradigm's more recent subs against anything from Rythmik and you can see this. Rythmik's time-domain performance is good, but equal and better can be had from brands that do not have any servo feedback system.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
I'm not saying Rythmik's build quality is bad, but it just isn't on the level of Arendal, period. As for a servo system that controls a cone, any decent driver does that and does not need or benefit from assistance from the amplifier. A comparative glance at group delay measurements vs Rythmik subs will tell you that much. As for measurements for Rythmik's cheapest subs, I haven't seen any, and I don't think any are publically available.

Yes, you are getting servo-controlled subs from other manufacturers. Infinity used to do it, Genesis, Velodyne, Paradigm. Paradigm used to have servo-controlled subs but stopped doing it, likely because it just wasn't useful anymore. Again, as for cone control, compare group delay of Paradigm's more recent subs against anything from Rythmik and you can see this.
Schrodinger23 makes a very good point. One can have 2 F18s for the price of a single Arendal which handily outperform the Arendal by quite a margin. So what advantages are there owning the Arendal over 2 F18s? Please dont say aesthetics because I look at the screen when watching movies, not the subs. ;)

Rythmik's time-domain performance is good, but equal and better can be had from brands that do not have any servo feedback system.
At what cost point?
 
S

Schrodinger23

Audioholic Intern
Schrodinger23 makes a very good point. One can have 2 F18s for the price of a single Arendal which handily outperform the Arendal by quite a margin. So what advantages are there owning the Arendal over 2 F18s? Please dont say aesthetics because I look at the screen when watching movies, not the subs. ;)


At what cost point?
It is around $3300 for two F18s shipped in the standard vinyl finish. For around $3700 you can have a pair of F18s in piano black, including shipping. If you care about aesthetics, then it is still a no brainer. Still go with the Rythmik subs. For only $700 more you get the advantage of two subwoofers at smoothing out room modes and one Rythmik sub has very similar output levels to the Adrenal sub.

But, again the servo sub has a big advantage over others as Jeffca mentioned above explained by Brian. I have a different snippet of Brian talking about the advantage of servo over DSP, which is ultimately why I ended up going with Rythmik subs. Rythmik subs go head to head with the other internet direct subwoofers in terms of output at a given price level, but you get the servo design thrown in on top of it. Here is Brian talking about what I mentioned:

"DSP is good, but is not perfect. There was a company that claimed they can make a NHT speaker generate a perfect impulse response. I visited the company's booth in CES and asked the engineer just one simple question, does that mean the true quality of the speakers is no longer important? He refused to answer my question in front of other customers and wanted me to go away. The truth is like this. First, all speakers have characteristics changing between small signals and large signals. What is a bad speaker? A bad speaker is a speaker exhibit wild difference between small signal characteristic and large signal characteristic. Does the DSP fix the small signal characteristic or the large signal characteristic? DSP is a linear operation, it cannot fix both. But servo can fix both. Secondly, you know the car you drive does age and its feel is difference when it is cold vs when it is hot. Why do you think the subwoofer is any different? When it ages, the frequency response also changes. Does the DSP correct that? No. When the voice coil in the subwoofer is cold vs when it is hot, the frequency response is also different. Some called it thermal compression. I prefer to call it thermal memory effect. What is memory effect? If you press a memory foam, you will notice the impress takes some time to recover. The thermal effect on voice coil works the same way. You will hear the term thermal stress very often to explain how a voice coil can be fried. Now think of how the thermal comes and goes in voice coil. Does DSP correct that? No. Some subwoofers have such as poor memory effect, people think the subwoofer sounds slow with respect to the other channels. That slowness is a profound characteristic. Otherwise, all we have to do is move the subwoofer closer to us to correct it. Lastly, we all heard the term "unit-to-unit" variation. I can even extend that to "batch-to-batch" variation. How many times people find the actual frequency response is different from published spec? In fact, these variations do exist and is the explanation of what had happened (assuming the manufacturer does not make up the spec in the first place) . How does DSP address that? It cannot. Do you really think they will give each batch a different DSP correction? That will only create more service problem. As a result, you will see some frequency response measured by third party that does not look like smooth curve at all. It is a clear indication that imperfect EQ has been applied and as a result wavy frequency response is measured, especially when the reviewer pick a random unit from the market place without manufacturer's acknowledgement. It is imperfect because the correction is only valid to the sample unit in engineer's hand. If they find the production units are different from the sample unit, what do you think they will do? You would have guessed it right. Ship it. The customers will buy that DSP rubber stamp. Servo is different. It is a closed loop feedback system. It takes the unit-to-unit/batch-to-batch variation into account and adjust the needed correction. So now you can guess how can DSP generate a perfect impulse response? It can, but only at one particular level that the engineer samples. That is the reason I was sent away because the R&D already know the limitation. If TV is selling that DSP to me, I will challenge the same thing. DSP only works with the assumption of a model. Who double check if the model is correct? If no one does, it is just a rubber stamp. Not only that, you know that two bad characteristics in the system, instead of just one."
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Schrodinger23 makes a very good point. One can have 2 F18s for the price of a single Arendal which handily outperform the Arendal by quite a margin. So what advantages are there owning the Arendal over 2 F18s? Please dont say aesthetics because I look at the screen when watching movies, not the subs. ;)
For the price of two F18s, you can have four Hsu VTF-3 mk5s which will smoke the F18s as well as have excellent room coverage from a multi-sub setup. So what are the advantages are there of owning the F18s over the VTF-3s? Also, I wouldn't be so dismissive of aesthetics. Some people like nice-looking things. I can appreciate that myself, and although it isn't a requirement of subwoofer ownership for myself, it certainly is a bonus. If I were a wealthier man, it may well be a requirement.
At what cost point?
Any of the Monoprice Monolith subs are very competitive against Rythmik's best measurements in group delay, and the Monolith 13" very much outperforms it. The Paradigm Defiance subs are very competitive in group delay performance. The JTR Captivator RS1 totally outperforms Rythmik here. And keep in mind that I am using the F18 as the benchmark here, and that is Rythmik's best group delay showing. I could probably find more if I dug deeper in my own collection of measurements.
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
For the price of two F18s, you can have four Hsu VTF-3 mk5s which will smoke the F18s as well as have excellent room coverage from a multi-sub setup. So what are the advantages are there of owning the F18s over the VTF-3s? Also, I wouldn't be so dismissive of aesthetics. Some people like nice-looking things. I can appreciate that myself, and although it isn't a requirement of subwoofer ownership for myself, it certainly isn't a bonus. If I were a wealthier man, it may well be.
You didn't answer the question. You side stepped it. So what advantages are there owning the Arendal over 2 F18s?

Any of the Monoprice Monolith subs are very competitive against Rythmik's best measurements in group delay, and the Monolith 13" very much outperforms it. The Paradigm Defiance subs are very competitive in group delay performance. The JTR Captivator RS1 totally outperforms Rythmik here. And keep in mind that I am using the F18 as the benchmark here, and that is Rythmik's best group delay showing. I could probably find more if I dug deeper in my own collection of measurements.
And the JTR Captivator RS1 are twice the cost of the Rythmik so I would hope it would smoke the F18.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I don't view Rythmik as particularly worth their cost :) Servo technology sounds good on paper....but hasn't proved particularly important overall. It makes for a nice sales pitch, tho.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
It is around $3300 for two F18s shipped in the standard vinyl finish. For around $3700 you can have a pair of F18s in piano black, including shipping. If you care about aesthetics, then it is still a no brainer. Still go with the Rythmik subs. For only $700 more you get the advantage of two subwoofers at smoothing out room modes and one Rythmik sub has very similar output levels to the Adrenal sub.
There is more to high-end than just aesthetics. The Arendal has the build of a tank, and it is well protected by some very advanced DSP monitoring. Its feature set goes way beyond anything Rythmik has. It's just not in the same class. If I was on a tighter budget, I may well go with two F18s over a single 1723 2V, but then again, on a tight budget, there are options I would choose over two F18s. If I wasn't on such a tight budget, I am going with the 1723 2Vs. You just don't know until you seen it and felt it in person. If money isn't an issue whatsoever, I would go with some Perlisten D215s subs. Not the greatest deal out there in dollar for the raw SPL, but the build class and technology is something to behold.
But, again the servo sub has a big advantage over others as Jeffca mentioned above explained by Brian. I have a different snippet of Brian talking about the advantage of servo over DSP, which is ultimately why I ended up going with Rythmik subs. Rythmik subs go head to head with the other internet direct subwoofers in terms of output at a given price level, but you get the servo design thrown in on top of it. Here is Brian talking about what I mentioned:

"DSP is good, but is not perfect. There was a company that claimed they can make a NHT speaker generate a perfect impulse response. I visited the company's booth in CES and asked the engineer just one simple question, does that mean the true quality of the speakers is no longer important? He refused to answer my question in front of other customers and wanted me to go away. The truth is like this. First, all speakers have characteristics changing between small signals and large signals. What is a bad speaker? A bad speaker is a speaker exhibit wild difference between small signal characteristic and large signal characteristic. Does the DSP fix the small signal characteristic or the large signal characteristic? DSP is a linear operation, it cannot fix both. But servo can fix both. Secondly, you know the car you drive does age and its feel is difference when it is cold vs when it is hot. Why do you think the subwoofer is any different? When it ages, the frequency response also changes. Does the DSP correct that? No. When the voice coil in the subwoofer is cold vs when it is hot, the frequency response is also different. Some called it thermal compression. I prefer to call it thermal memory effect. What is memory effect? If you press a memory foam, you will notice the impress takes some time to recover. The thermal effect on voice coil works the same way. You will hear the term thermal stress very often to explain how a voice coil can be fried. Now think of how the thermal comes and goes in voice coil. Does DSP correct that? No. Some subwoofers have such as poor memory effect, people think the subwoofer sounds slow with respect to the other channels. That slowness is a profound characteristic. Otherwise, all we have to do is move the subwoofer closer to us to correct it. Lastly, we all heard the term "unit-to-unit" variation. I can even extend that to "batch-to-batch" variation. How many times people find the actual frequency response is different from published spec? In fact, these variations do exist and is the explanation of what had happened (assuming the manufacturer does not make up the spec in the first place) . How does DSP address that? It cannot. Do you really think they will give each batch a different DSP correction? That will only create more service problem. As a result, you will see some frequency response measured by third party that does not look like smooth curve at all. It is a clear indication that imperfect EQ has been applied and as a result wavy frequency response is measured, especially when the reviewer pick a random unit from the market place without manufacturer's acknowledgement. It is imperfect because the correction is only valid to the sample unit in engineer's hand. If they find the production units are different from the sample unit, what do you think they will do? You would have guessed it right. Ship it. The customers will buy that DSP rubber stamp. Servo is different. It is a closed loop feedback system. It takes the unit-to-unit/batch-to-batch variation into account and adjust the needed correction. So now you can guess how can DSP generate a perfect impulse response? It can, but only at one particular level that the engineer samples. That is the reason I was sent away because the R&D already know the limitation. If TV is selling that DSP to me, I will challenge the same thing. DSP only works with the assumption of a model. Who double check if the model is correct? If no one does, it is just a rubber stamp. Not only that, you know that two bad characteristics in the system, instead of just one."
There is a lot of hyperbole in this sales pitch and a lot wrong here. I don't have time to go through it line by line, but I will address some of the major points:
  • If DSP does not alleviate the transducer of needing a high-quality construction, servo feedback systems definitely do not either. I am not sure why he would make that argument.
  • Small signal and large signal characteristics? What?!
  • He says that DSP can not compensate for thermal compression. Yes, it absolutely can. But it would a poor design decision to do so. In fact, I regard this as a problem with servo-feedback systems. Thermal compression is when the coil (and to a lesser extent, the permanent magnet) gets hot and starts losing magnetic force. If you have reached that point, the last thing you want to do is start shoving way more current into the system! It just exacerbates the root problem, and that will lead to a premature demise of the system.
  • His characterization of "memory effects" of thermal compression is nonsense. All that is occurring is that the driver becomes less sensitive when the magnetic flux is reduced. Any time-domain issues that would cause would be slight at best. Note that he does not offer any proof to support his conclusions, even though this effect would be easy to test.
  • His unit-to-unit argument is also nonsense. It may be true for low-cost subs, but not in the class that we are discussing. I believe that the factory that the Arendal subs are manufactured in has Six-Sigma certification of quality control- does Rythmik have that? Besides that, Rythmik would be just as susceptible to these problems as anyone. Servo systems just displace some of the responsibility for linear behavior from the driver to the amp. Well, now the amp has to be functioning perfectly for the system to have accurate reproduction as well as the driver.
In the end, you are giving way too much credit to the servo-feedback system. The best it can do is make some corrections as the driver enters into the end of its linear travel. However, that only works up to a point. The problem is that the vast majority of a subwoofer's operation is spent within a linear oscillation, so it's addressing a problem that doesn't really exist in any competently designed driver. And what's worse, like I said it can end up pouring current into a system that is rapidly losing sensitivity. I won't go too hard on Rythmik because they have been shown to be good performers in third-party measurements, but there are other brands that have excellent performance that is on par or surpasses Rythmik that do not rely on servo-control systems.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
You didn't answer the question. You side stepped it. So what advantages are there owning the Arendal over 2 F18s?
I did answer your question. The 1723 2V is a nicer sub with a higher-quality build, a more advanced feature set, a better warranty, superior protection against over-driving and bad AC and a host of other problems, and it looks nice although that is a very subjective aspect. Hell, it comes shipped in a silky draw-string rayon sack with the Arendal logo and includes cotton inspection gloves for unpacking without getting fingerprints on the unit. Its packing also includes polyethylene foam blocks on every single side of the sub that protects nearly every single inch - the best packing I have ever seen on a subwoofer. It's nicer in every way. I concede that if your budget is around the $3k point, the smarter thing to do is get multiple sub system if you are after the highest quality bass.
 
I

Imureh

Audioholic Intern
There is more to high-end than just aesthetics. The Arendal has the build of a tank, and it is well protected by some very advanced DSP monitoring. Its feature set goes way beyond anything Rythmik has. It's just not in the same class. If I was on a tighter budget, I may well go with two F18s over a single 1723 2V, but then again, on a tight budget, there are options I would choose over two F18s. If I wasn't on such a tight budget, I am going with the 1723 2Vs. You just don't know until you seen it and felt it in person. If money isn't an issue whatsoever, I would go with some Perlisten D215s subs. Not the greatest deal out there in dollar for the raw SPL, but the build class and technology is something to behold.

There is a lot of hyperbole in this sales pitch and a lot wrong here. I don't have time to go through it line by line, but I will address some of the major points:
  • If DSP does not alleviate the transducer of needing a high-quality construction, servo feedback systems definitely do not either. I am not sure why he would make that argument.
  • Small signal and large signal characteristics? What?!
  • He says that DSP can not compensate for thermal compression. Yes, it absolutely can. But it would a poor design decision to do so. In fact, I regard this as a problem with servo-feedback systems. Thermal compression is when the coil (and to a lesser extent, the permanent magnet) gets hot and starts losing magnetic force. If you have reached that point, the last thing you want to do is start shoving way more current into the system! It just exacerbates the root problem, and that will lead to a premature demise of the system.
  • His characterization of "memory effects" of thermal compression is nonsense. All that is occurring is that the driver becomes less sensitive when the magnetic flux is reduced. Any time-domain issues that would cause would be slight at best. Note that he does not offer any proof to support his conclusions, even though this effect would be easy to test.
  • His unit-to-unit argument is also nonsense. It may be true for low-cost subs, but not in the class that we are discussing. I believe that the factory that the Arendal subs are manufactured in has Six-Sigma certification of quality control- does Rythmik have that? Besides that, Rythmik would be just as susceptible to these problems as anyone. Servo systems just displace some of the responsibility for linear behavior from the driver to the amp. Well, now the amp has to be functioning perfectly for the system to have accurate reproduction as well as the driver.
In the end, you are giving way too much credit to the servo-feedback system. The best it can do is make some corrections as the driver enters into the end of its linear travel. However, that only works up to a point. The problem is that the vast majority of a subwoofer's operation is spent within a linear oscillation, so it's addressing a problem that doesn't really exist in any competently designed driver. And what's worse, like I said it can end up pouring current into a system that is rapidly losing sensitivity. I won't go too hard on Rythmik because they have been shown to be good performers in third-party measurements, but there are other brands that have excellent performance that is on par or surpasses Rythmik that do not rely on servo-control systems.
I would love for you to debate this with Brian directly rather than calling what he says sales pitch and nonsense. Brian is not Tom V and doesn’t BS around. You are a reviewer and need to show some professionalism in your responses.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
I did answer your question. The 1723 2V is a nicer sub with a higher-quality build, a more advanced feature set, a better warranty, superior protection against over-driving and bad AC and a host of other problems, and it looks nice although that is a very subjective aspect. Hell, it comes shipped in a silky draw-string rayon sack with the Arendal logo and includes cotton inspection gloves for unpacking without getting fingerprints on the unit. Its packing also includes polyethylene foam blocks on every single side of the sub that protects nearly every single inch - the best packing I have ever seen on a subwoofer. It's nicer in every way. I concede that if your budget is around the $3k point, the smarter thing to do is get multiple sub system if you are after the highest quality bass.
Damn Shady somehow you've managed to piss off every single Rythmik owner on the planet. There coming for you. You need to run for the hills man run for your life! ;)

images.jpeg.jpg
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Just a friendly reminder...

11. Because there are a lot of forum members (and on slim occasion, manufacturers) who like to doggedly bring up their favorite products (it seems) in each and every forum thread, we have had to instate a new rule for PRODUCT REVIEW threads. In a PRODUCT REVIEW thread started by an Audioholics staff member or Admin discussion of competing products will not be allowed. This is not to stifle discussion, but to help keep the REVIEW thread on topic - namely, to keep it about the product being reviewed. Members are welcome to start other comparison threads or discussions elsewhere, but off-topic posts within REVIEW threads will simply be deleted.
Keep it on point folks.
 

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