Are Some Cables More Energy Efficient Than Others?

MR.MAGOO

MR.MAGOO

Audioholic Field Marshall
Just wondering if cables (HDMI, RCA, TosLink) from different makers are more efficient than others. The last couple of months my electric company sends me a letter complaining I'm using more power (390 kWh between May 3 - Jun 1, 2018) than my 'efficient' neighbors within a one mile radius! Heck, there's a major shopping mall one mile away, I'm sure it gulps megawatts of juice everyday! For example, if I change all HDMI cables to the exact same brand.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'll just say no. OTOH you're not bad at 390kwh for a month, my minimum is somewhere around double that, more in winter (over 2000 in January).
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I would say your gear itself is what eats power, not the cables. And, certainly not HDMI or RCA type cables.
While you are at it, incandescent bulbs if you still use them, stand alone freezers, mine uses 62.5 kW a month and it is not even self defrosting that would use a whole bunch more. Pool.spa heating, electric dryers, etc.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
what is OTOH ?
On The Other Hand

I find it interesting that your Electric Company is complaining about your usage - aren't they in business to SELL?

I'm wanting to switch to full Solar with Battery Back up in a few years with a Grid-Tie to distribute the excess I produce. Our local Electrical is very resistant to this and I believe last I saw they tacked on a big fee for Grid Tie systems. Time to adapt your business, if you want t survive!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
How would an RCA, most HDMI or Tos-Link use energy? Thinking they're the culprit is like thinking an ant is the cause of the world's problems.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
How would an RCA, most HDMI or Tos-Link use energy? Thinking they're the culprit is like thinking an ant is the cause of the world's problems.
You mean they are not? They outnumber us a whole lot.;):D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
On The Other Hand

I find it interesting that your Electric Company is complaining about your usage - aren't they in business to SELL?

I'm wanting to switch to full Solar with Battery Back up in a few years with a Grid-Tie to distribute the excess I produce. Our local Electrical is very resistant to this and I believe last I saw they tacked on a big fee for Grid Tie systems. Time to adapt your business, if you want t survive!
I produce about 120% of my annual needs. Power company tried to eliminate banking it, wanted use it or forget it.:mad:
Other states may already have this.
And, not long ago they started charging fees to use their equipment, powerlines, etch for the excess power. Yes, they are making a killing on it as it is generated when there is a huge power demand by others.

Using battery backup is expensive if you want to get off grid totally as you would need enough capacity to fill all the low generation days, clouds, overcast, etc.
I was thinking about this but I would think it would need to be a very large battery capacity. What if you have low generation for a week?
Petition your state for community power companies. ;)
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
Anything that uses a large amount of electricity gets hot or does a large amount of work.
With the exceptions of Class "A" amps and tube amps, hi-fi systems don't use much electricity.
But TV projectors, large TV's and PC monitors might.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I produce about 120% of my annual needs. Power company tried to eliminate banking it, wanted use it or forget it.:mad:
Other states may already have this.
And, not long ago they started charging fees to use their equipment, powerlines, etch for the excess power. Yes, they are making a killing on it as it is generated when there is a huge power demand by others.

Using battery backup is expensive if you want to get off grid totally as you would need enough capacity to fill all the low generation days, clouds, overcast, etc.
I was thinking about this but I would think it would need to be a very large battery capacity. What if you have low generation for a week?
Petition your state for community power companies. ;)
Batteries are getting better and better, so I hope they can be considered an actual investment in a few years time, but I am definitely on board for solar. My roof is just angled in all the wrong directions for maximum collector efficiency. So while I say a few years, it might be few more than that - til I rebuild the house with a low slope roof...

GA is fighting itself in every which way... but it was at least a glimmer of hope when the water company offered rebates for installing ultra low flow toilets!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I produce about 120% of my annual needs. Power company tried to eliminate banking it, wanted use it or forget it.:mad:
Other states may already have this.
And, not long ago they started charging fees to use their equipment, powerlines, etch for the excess power. Yes, they are making a killing on it as it is generated when there is a huge power demand by others.

Using battery backup is expensive if you want to get off grid totally as you would need enough capacity to fill all the low generation days, clouds, overcast, etc.
I was thinking about this but I would think it would need to be a very large battery capacity. What if you have low generation for a week?
Petition your state for community power companies. ;)
But part of having an energy-efficient home involves using devices that are energy-efficient. I don't like using an electric range for cooking, so that would be no problem. I wouldn't use electric heat or incandescent lights and those are two of the other largest energy suckers. I think the laundry would be another one, but a gas dryer would limit the demand, so maybe using a generator part-time for the biggest demand would be a way to get off of the grid without spending as much for batteries. They can use gasoline or propane/Natural Gas, so recharging and supply can happen simultaneously.

A friend installed four solar panels on the hard top of his boat because he was taking it to the Bahamas from Milwaukee and didn't want to be screwed in the event that his alternator failed in the ocean and when I was helping him finish some other work, we talked about the power they could provide- on a cloudy day, they were still at 40% and that's enough to power the whole boat, even if the heat/AC, refrigerator, stereo, instruments, lights and engine are running. The power management unit has inputs for the shore power, batteries/alternator and solar panels and distributes as needed.

I think the key to going off-grid is in having multiple sources of energy and managing it effectively. In SE Wisconsin, we Energies used to pay well for extra power from solar and they have basically told people they're screwed if they expect to see much, so the payback has been extended. In fact, some places have mandates that the utility generate a specific amount of their energy using solar, Wisconsin doesn't. Ironically, the WE Energies headquarters in downtown Milwaukee has a bank of solar panels on it, so they can avoid using their own service. In addition, the rate/KWh here is 40% higher than in Missouri, but some states on the site I found don't show their cost.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Batteries are getting better and better, so I hope they can be considered an actual investment in a few years time, but I am definitely on board for solar. My roof is just angled in all the wrong directions for maximum collector efficiency. So while I say a few years, it might be few more than that - til I rebuild the house with a low slope roof...

GA is fighting itself in every which way... but it was at least a glimmer of hope when the water company offered rebates for installing ultra low flow toilets!
Yes, batteries are getting better but it is expensive.
https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/Enphase_IQ_Battery_DS.pdf
About $2k. Not sure how to calc my needs, total storage, to be off grid. Fridge and freezer uses about 500W per hour together. Sunset to sunrise, 10 hours or more, not to mention other needs.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
But part of having an energy-efficient home involves using devices that are energy-efficient. I don't like using an electric range for cooking, so that would be no problem. I wouldn't use electric heat or incandescent lights and those are two of the other largest energy suckers. I think the laundry would be another one, but a gas dryer would limit the demand, so maybe using a generator part-time for the biggest demand would be a way to get off of the grid without spending as much for batteries. They can use gasoline or propane/Natural Gas, so recharging and supply can happen simultaneously.

A friend installed four solar panels on the hard top of his boat because he was taking it to the Bahamas from Milwaukee and didn't want to be screwed in the event that his alternator failed in the ocean and when I was helping him finish some other work, we talked about the power they could provide- on a cloudy day, they were still at 40% and that's enough to power the whole boat, even if the heat/AC, refrigerator, stereo, instruments, lights and engine are running. The power management unit has inputs for the shore power, batteries/alternator and solar panels and distributes as needed.

I think the key to going off-grid is in having multiple sources of energy and managing it effectively. In SE Wisconsin, we Energies used to pay well for extra power from solar and they have basically told people they're screwed if they expect to see much, so the payback has been extended. In fact, some places have mandates that the utility generate a specific amount of their energy using solar, Wisconsin doesn't. Ironically, the WE Energies headquarters in downtown Milwaukee has a bank of solar panels on it, so they can avoid using their own service. In addition, the rate/KWh here is 40% higher than in Missouri, but some states on the site I found don't show their cost.
I do have an energy efficient home, super insulated, converted to almost 100% LED.
One has to convince other members to use a toaster oven instead of the wall oven but that is next to impossible. ;)
Then, one needs to compare BTY costs of gas and electricity. With solar, excess electricity costs me $0.04 kW and in the cold times that is less than gas BTU.
Only problem is that the house was not designed to replace gas heating with electricity and remodeling is a bear and $$$$$. :)
Next gen.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Not sure I agree than incandescent lights are "some of the largest energy suckers".

A 60w bulb uses .. well, 60 watts. That is 1/30th of the available power from a single 15A/120V outlet. In Kilowatt-Hours (how you pay for electricity, and a measure of efficiency) at 25c /KWh (a high but not unheard of rate; your actual rate can be determined by a phone call to the utility or a look at your bill) [see Edit] that means running that lamp costs 25c to operate for 16.6 hours continuously.

Further, incandescent "inefficiency" is based on the premise that the only wanted output is light. If at any time you are heating your home the "wasted" energy is not wasted at all, and removing it requires it be replaced by another energy source. In that case (eg winter) an incandescent bulb is 100% efficient, unless you don't want the light output, in which case it would be about 80% efficient, which even then isn't bad for a heat source from electricity in comparison to the alternatives.

Finally, like any light or heat source, if you aren't using it, turn it off. No matter what the device, an unused device still under power is by definition an Energy Sucker, even if it's the baby monitor. Turn the light off and incandescent Energy Sucking Rate = 0, and unlike many energy using appliances or devices, our homes are built with vast networks of switches at convenient heights at the entrances and exits of most rooms to do just that conveniently, which makes the incandescent bulb a pretty useful device in the home.

Not to suggest an LED bulb might not be the better choice in constant warm climates or in summer in Continental climates, but if people really cared about efficiency, they would swap their LEDs for incandescents every fall and back again every spring, so that the use of light devices could also offset heating costs at near-perfect efficiency.

Which most people don't do, and I've never heard a legislator or Green Energy advocate suggest as much, so the assertion that they "care" about energy use is suspect at best. What they care about is changing human behaviour with simple "rules" that someone with an actual working mind can see past easily, which should insult us, given it's evidence that succinctly reveals what they truly think of our cognitive skills. A less conspiratorial view is it reflects their cognitive skills.

Finally, do not use LED lamps on the same line as any HiFi gear, as they generally are nasty introducers of harmonic spikes into your AC line. If you need a lamp on the same AC line as your music system, use a low-wattage incandescent always. For built-in lighting it may be OK, but it would be worth a moment to check that the outlet you are using isn't also connected to the overhead lighting,

CFL bulbs should be quickly dispatched to that Special Place In Hell reserved for them. Incandescents or LEDs only. I didn't read the whole of your problems with the utility, but if you're using CFL bulbs in any quantity that might be a part of it, as the Power Factor is terrible, which means the utility must generate more electricity than they can bill you for, unless you're on a 600A 3-phase line, where you pay for Power Factor, which you almost certainly are not.

But that Shopping Mall will be, which is why it doesn't count when they compare you to your neighbours. Their letter is referring only to those around you on single-phase service.

Cables can vary in efficiency (in this case, just the AC cables to equipment) but that won't matter, since any given appliance only consumes what it is designed to consume, and for the most part the devices in your home are not approaching the 15A available at each outlet (1800 watts). The large power users (electric stoves and ovens, clothes dryers, HVAC systems, etc) have adequate cables as a matter of meeting the Electrical Code, so unless you are running something like a Makita Rotary Portable Saw 24/7 via a long extension cord (a 13A load plus the losses of an extension cord) it's a non-issue.

HDMI, RCA, Ethernet, USB, etc cables do not transfer any significant amount of power in relation to an AC line. Their efficiency in that respect, even if terrible (which isn't the case) would not amount to more than a watt or less total, and that is being very conservative.

If you really want to take some steps to solving this issue, I suggest doing an energy inventory of your entire home. Put aside an afternoon or evening to do it. It would involve an inventory of every electrical device in your home, plus the permanently installed equipment (like the clothes washer, or the kitchen dishwasher),a good estimate of how many hours per month they are under power and the wattage consumption (marked on every device, by law). In that way you will identify the true power drains on your total electrical usage, and can take any necessary steps to reduce consumption.

In many cases it's not so much the power they use as how long (in hours) they are active per month. None the less it's the only way to truly discover your actual power use habits and how they are impacting your monthly bill.

Edit ... I see you know your rate, and it's low. Leaving my comment as written for others who probably do pay much more than you do. In my case, it costs me $C 0.1565/KwH ($US 12.2c) but most places in N America it's higher. My monthly consumption for May was 596 KwH or $C 93.27 worth ($US 72.88).
 
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T

Turk

Junior Audioholic
How would an RCA, most HDMI or Tos-Link use energy? Thinking they're the culprit is like thinking an ant is the cause of the world's problems.
Only thing that can possibly “use energy” is your power cables. For it to even show up on an energy bill you would have to have well over 1000’ of 12awg because of the resistance and voltage lost across that wire would give you some kind of watts. I would have to get out my code book and do the calculations but my best guess is it would cost you around $ 0.05 a month. Any kind of digital signaling will have no effect at all.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Only thing that can possibly “use energy” is your power cables. For it to even show up on an energy bill you would have to have well over 1000’ of 12awg because of the resistance and voltage lost across that wire would give you some kind of watts. I would have to get out my code book and do the calculations but my best guess is it would cost you around $ 0.05 a month. Any kind of digital signaling will have no effect at all.
Circuits that need a power supply 'use' energy, anything else wastes it by resisting electron flow, by whatever amount it can or does.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I do have an energy efficient home, super insulated, converted to almost 100% LED.
One has to convince other members to use a toaster oven instead of the wall oven but that is next to impossible. ;)
Then, one needs to compare BTY costs of gas and electricity. With solar, excess electricity costs me $0.04 kW and in the cold times that is less than gas BTU.
Only problem is that the house was not designed to replace gas heating with electricity and remodeling is a bear and $$$$$. :)
Next gen.
I don't think I would replace cooking or heating with electricity- cook tops and ranges take longer to become hot enough to cook and they don't normally react as quickly as needed, resulting in the need to remove a pan from the burner in order to stop and wasting the heat that's coming from the burner. Electric ovens cook more evenly but convection helps with that. For cooking in an oven, a toaster over makes a lot of sense for something small but for anything large, cooking it outdoors isn't a bad option.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Not sure I agree than incandescent lights are "some of the largest energy suckers".

A 60w bulb uses .. well, 60 watts. That is 1/30th of the available power from a single 15A/120V outlet. In Kilowatt-Hours (how you pay for electricity, and a measure of efficiency) at 25c /KWh (a high but not unheard of rate; your actual rate can be determined by a phone call to the utility or a look at your bill) [see Edit] that means running that lamp costs 25c to operate for 16.6 hours continuously.
The energy companies tell us to use less energy because of pressure to be more "green" but when we do, they just raise their rates to make up for the loss of revenue. The environmentalists want people to use less energy because they hate the amount of fossil fuel used and the resulting pollution- not a bad thing at face value, but the way they go about it sucks. They use the judicial system as their weapon of choice and that forces people and businesses to do things they may not be able to afford, resulting in the need for government assistance and higher taxes. They don't give a rat's butt how much it costs us to use energy, it's all about the impact on the Earth which again, is a noble idea.

Commercial and industrial designers who work with large facilities DO consider the heat/cooling load when designing the lighting system and in that world, LED lighting is often low voltage- for residential or smaller buildings, the cost to be energy efficient is high, not something that can be recovered easily by adding income through more workers among the family or by demanding higher pay. I think more housing should have return vents to recirculate warm air, especially when the place has high ceilings. During warmer periods, the high ceilings are used to keep the warm air above the occupants, making them more comfortable.

Have you noticed that some incandescent bulbs are harder to find? Government intervention. They don't care if we design the place to use the heat effectively, they just don't want energy companies to use as much fossil fuel. Some in government actually stated that they don't care about higher energy prices- Obama said "Under my cap and trade system, energy prices would necessarily skyrocket"- who in their right mind would think that skyrocketing energy prices would be a good thing?
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Well, 100w Cool White incandescents are not just "hard to find", they are outright banned in Canada as of a few years ago. 60 and 40 are somewhat easier to find, but not by much.

But it was the CFL push* ... terrible Power Factor so the wattage rating on the package is essentially an outright lie, and containing mercury and when that was brought up, it was pooh-poohed that it would find it's way into landfills and the water table. Somehow the stubbornly resistant people who couldn't be bothered to save energy would somehow transform into people who would responsibly recycle. When people pointed out that there actually was no recycling options (in my city, you had to drive to the Industrial Area of the city, to the Home Depot store, the only location to dispose of CFL bulbs in a city of 230,000 people. Yeah, I can see the poorest members of our city, CFLs in a paper bag, taking the bus to the Home Depot (which would require at least two transfers to another bus, each way),when the trash can is right there outside their homes).

It's stuff like that situation that makes my blood boil. This type of "Environmentalist" we can do without. Unfortunately, they become more embolded every day, and have the ear of vote-hungry politicians. We have a particular Environmental Nightmare ** here in Canada named David Suzuki. He derides everyone from the average citizen to any reasonably large entity, all the while his personal Carbon footprint is about the same as a small city, he has a TV show, gets massive Talk Circuit fees worldwide, and generally excels as a bad example. Last month was given an Honorary Degree.

* The local Power Utility went door-to-door in the poorest neighbourhoods giving as many as you asked for away for free. I'm not sure how, but somehow I harbour a suspicion my taxes paid for it somehow. My taxes are definitely paying for cleanup of the landfill.

** "Environmental Nightmare" as in actually a huge energy user and Carbon emitter, not as in someone I merely find annoying. Owns many homes, and I don't mean just 1,2,3, many. Has a new airplane ticket every second day of his life. Travels with an entourage, including in one speaking contract revealed last spring, a rider demanding a group of female bodyguards. Hypocritical, yes.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, 100w Cool White incandescents are not just "hard to find", they are outright banned in Canada as of a few years ago. 60 and 40 are somewhat easier to find, but not by much.

But it was the CFL push* ... terrible Power Factor so the wattage rating on the package is essentially an outright lie, and containing mercury and when that was brought up, it was pooh-poohed that it would find it's way into landfills and the water table. Somehow the stubbornly resistant people who couldn't be bothered to save energy would somehow transform into people who would responsibly recycle. When people pointed out that there actually was no recycling options (in my city, you had to drive to the Industrial Area of the city, to the Home Depot store, the only location to dispose of CFL bulbs in a city of 230,000 people. Yeah, I can see the poorest members of our city, CFLs in a paper bag, taking the bus to the Home Depot (which would require at least two transfers to another bus, each way),when the trash can is right there outside their homes).

It's stuff like that situation that makes my blood boil. This type of "Environmentalist" we can do without. Unfortunately, they become more embolded every day, and have the ear of vote-hungry politicians. We have a particular Environmental Nightmare ** here in Canada named David Suzuki. He derides everyone from the average citizen to any reasonably large entity, all the while his personal Carbon footprint is about the same as a small city, he has a TV show, gets massive Talk Circuit fees worldwide, and generally excels as a bad example. Last month was given an Honorary Degree.

* The local Power Utility went door-to-door in the poorest neighbourhoods giving as many as you asked for away for free. I'm not sure how, but somehow I harbour a suspicion my taxes paid for it somehow. My taxes are definitely paying for cleanup of the landfill.

** "Environmental Nightmare" as in actually a huge energy user and Carbon emitter, not as in someone I merely find annoying. Owns many homes, and I don't mean just 1,2,3, many. Has a new airplane ticket every second day of his life. Travels with an entourage, including in one speaking contract revealed last spring, a rider demanding a group of female bodyguards. Hypocritical, yes.
Suzuki seems to be a lot like Algore.
 
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