Are All Blu-ray Players Created Equal?

[ClinicaTerra]

Aside from profile standards and firmware updates, are there actual performance differences between Blu-ray Disc players, as there are between some DVD players -- such as ones that don't have good processors, scalers, etc?

I am beginning to blame my Panasonic DMP-BD10A for the not-so-good performance I have been experiencing since going high def; the player is connected via one HDMI cable to an Onkyo TX-SR605 (HDMI 1.3a capable) receiver...from there, a second HDMI cable is going from the receiver's HDMI OUT to a Sony KDS-50A2020 rear projection HDTV's HDMI IN (Video 6)...I was told this is the best way to send audio and video from the player to the receiver (for audio decoding) and then off to the display (for video)...

Now, assuming everything is hooked up right (and I do get a "1080p" notice on the top of my screen when I press the TV's Display button on the remote, indicating the Blu-ray player IS sending a 1080p signal), why don't Blu-rays look good on my system? Are all Blu-ray players created equal? Could it be the specific discs? Just tonight, I watched Independence Day and the picture quality was pretty poor and dissapointing for a BD -- there was a TON of noise and grain in many sequences and the overall appearance was "DVD flat"...high definition was supposed to promise "three-dimensional-like depth and contrast" but I just don't see it with my Blu-rays...

Taking my SXRD rear projection display out of the equation for a second -- as I was told I'm not experiencing high def the best way because I am not using an LCD -- could it be that the Panasonic Blu-ray deck is simply not in the same league as, say, the new $2000 flagship Denon? Are those expensive decks, such as the aforementioned Denon or Sony ES, designed to play Blu-rays "better" than the $500/$600 Panasonics, Sonys, Samsungs, etc? Will there be tremendous picture quality differences between the more affordably priced players and the $2000 ones?

I'm just curious whether or not all Blu-ray players should, ideally, play high definition material in the same fashion and quality no matter what the price point...unlike DVD players, where if you pay for one with a Realta or Reon chip you're gonna get unbelievably better upconversion...

 

[Audioholics]

I'm fairly certain there are differences, though it's not as hard to render an image from Blu-ray as it was for the first DVD player (using an interlaced signal source) that connected to a progressive scan TV.

We have yet to find material and test discs that quantify the differences well enough to catalogue anything of substance.

 

[allargon]

Aside from profile standards and firmware updates, are there actual performance differences between Blu-ray Disc players, as there are between some DVD players -- such as ones that don't have good processors, scalers, etc?

I am beginning to blame my Panasonic DMP-BD10A for the not-so-good performance I have been experiencing since going high def; the player is connected via one HDMI cable to an Onkyo TX-SR605 (HDMI 1.3a capable) receiver...from there, a second HDMI cable is going from the receiver's HDMI OUT to a Sony KDS-50A2020 rear projection HDTV's HDMI IN (Video 6)...I was told this is the best way to send audio and video from the player to the receiver (for audio decoding) and then off to the display (for video)...

Now, assuming everything is hooked up right (and I do get a "1080p" notice on the top of my screen when I press the TV's Display button on the remote, indicating the Blu-ray player IS sending a 1080p signal), why don't Blu-rays look good on my system? Are all Blu-ray players created equal? Could it be the specific discs? Just tonight, I watched Independence Day and the picture quality was pretty poor and dissapointing for a BD -- there was a TON of noise and grain in many sequences and the overall appearance was "DVD flat"...high definition was supposed to promise "three-dimensional-like depth and contrast" but I just don't see it with my Blu-rays...

Taking my SXRD rear projection display out of the equation for a second -- as I was told I'm not experiencing high def the best way because I am not using an LCD -- could it be that the Panasonic Blu-ray deck is simply not in the same league as, say, the new $2000 flagship Denon? Are those expensive decks, such as the aforementioned Denon or Sony ES, designed to play Blu-rays "better" than the $500/$600 Panasonics, Sonys, Samsungs, etc? Will there be tremendous picture quality differences between the more affordably priced players and the $2000 ones?

I'm just curious whether or not all Blu-ray players should, ideally, play high definition material in the same fashion and quality no matter what the price point...unlike DVD players, where if you pay for one with a Realta or Reon chip you're gonna get unbelievably better upconversion...

The Panasonic Blu-Ray players all have horrible upconversion according to every professional review out there. This is true of the DMP-BD10's, 30 and 50. However, they are all fine Blu-Ray players. If you're not seeing good, sharp detail, something else is wrong. I am a big time promulgator of the LG BH200. However, I won't denigrate the Panasonic's Blu-Ray playback capability. I had a DMP-BD10AK for a week. It's got a nice, solid construction to it.

Grain is NOT a defect of the disc. Film has grain. The higher resolution of Blu-Ray (and its defunct relatives HD DVD, HD VMD, D-Theater) means that film scans will show grain.

IMHO, LCD's have the worst PQ of all high definition technologies. Your SXRD (LCoS) has wonderful PQ. You need to get your display professional calibrated--period. The person who said an LCD would help you probably knows LCD's are so poor that you can't tell any difference between good or bad playback.

I haven't reviewed every Blu-ray player. Honestly, I've only played with about 3-4 of them. The reviewers here can assist you with that. I've read many reviews. I've seen very few players (usually the earlier Samsung units having disc compatibility issues) get poor marks for Blu-Ray playback. Most tend to vary with startup and loading times and feature sets rather than Blu-Ray playback PQ.

I bet if you got that Denon player and hooked it up the exact same way, you would have similar problems. It may be your Onkyo receiver setup (as Clint mentioned in a previous post). It could be your display settings. Again, let us know if your set is calibrated!

 

[ClinicaTerra]

I'm fairly certain there are differences, though it's not as hard to render an image from Blu-ray as it was for the first DVD player (using an interlaced signal source) that connected to a progressive scan TV.

So, there could be playback quality differences between the $2000 decks and these $500/$600 Pannys and Sonys, etc? Would "deinterlacing" and such matter when talking about BLU-RAY technology? Wouldn't it just be the way the players process and spit out 1080p material?

We have yet to find material and test discs that quantify the differences well enough to catalogue anything of substance.

How about real world testing -- getting an ordinary Blu-ray title and comparing in side to side on two different BD players...this wouldn't reveal differences?

 

[j_garcia]

So, there could be playback quality differences between the $2000 decks and these $500/$600 Pannys and Sonys, etc? Would "deinterlacing" and such matter when talking about BLU-RAY technology? Wouldn't it just be the way the players process and spit out 1080p material?

I don't think there is any deinterlacing going on, since it should be an all digital transfer of 1080p to a compatible HDTV, though as you note, how they process and feed that signal will likely have an effect on the resulting picture. PQ is also affected by the capabilities of your display and the calibration of that display.

How about real world testing -- getting an ordinary Blu-ray title and comparing in side to side on two different BD players...this wouldn't reveal differences?

Yes, that's what I would say would be the best way to compare.

 

[ClinicaTerra]

Hello Allargon,

Thanks for your thoughts on this; let me reply to some of them as the issue seems to have gotten a bit cloudier for me...

The Panasonic Blu-Ray players all have horrible upconversion according to every professional review out there.

Yes; I have read this too since owning the '10A...hence, why I want to get a good separate upscaling player like the Oppo 983 for DVD playback exclusively -- I'm on their wait list because they're out of stock...

This is true of the DMP-BD10's, 30 and 50.

Right -- hence the reason why I'm not getting another Panny deck even for its bitstreaming output of the new codecs, which I wanted to upgrade this '10A for...

However, they are all fine Blu-Ray players. If you're not seeing good, sharp detail, something else is wrong. I am a big time promulgator of the LG BH200. However, I won't denigrate the Panasonic's Blu-Ray playback capability. I had a DMP-BD10AK for a week. It's got a nice, solid construction to it.

I'm not really seeing a sharp, detailed image -- from MOST of the titles I run this player with; now, some titles have been mind-boggling detailed, such as CON AIR believe it or not, but most titles simply look like what good DVD should in my opinion.

Now, of course, there are other factors at play here: I am running ths '10A in an HDMI loop through an Onkyo TX-SR605 receiver, in which the '10A's HDMI OUT is going to the receiver's HDMI IN and then the receiver's HDMI OUT is going to my Sony SXRD display's HDMI IN...could THIS be degrading the Blu-ray picture I'm seeing somehow?

I'm also engaging Panasonic's "Digital Noise Reduction" circuit (or DNR) when playing DVDs and Blu-rays, and for DVDs, it DOES cut down on artifacts but seems to do nothing with Blu-rays...should this be on or off for high definition playback?

Grain is NOT a defect of the disc. Film has grain. The higher resolution of Blu-Ray (and its defunct relatives HD DVD, HD VMD, D-Theater) means that film scans will show grain.

I am noticing high definition is bringing out the film grain in almost every disc -- while I don't care for it, I totally understand that it's inherent in film...what I'm talking about is annoying, grain-like "flickering" and "dithering" in the background of Blu-ray films played on this deck -- it's a "issue" described by a reviewer who did a review online of the '10A and found the same strange "twitchiness" to even Blu-rays played on the Panasonic...I'll try and find the link to the review...THAT'S why I want to know if all Blu-ray players are created equal...

IMHO, LCD's have the worst PQ of all high definition technologies. Your SXRD (LCoS) has wonderful PQ. You need to get your display professional calibrated--period. The person who said an LCD would help you probably knows LCD's are so poor that you can't tell any difference between good or bad playback.

I'm afraid I don't know what to say about this; I have calibrated my KDS-50A2020 in Sony's Standard picture mode with a calibration disc and don't really want to invest in a professional ISF right now; at any rate, should I be using the set's "Custom" mode instead and engaging features like "Detail Enhancer" or "Live Color," etc? I don't know how to set the White Balance values without a tool, either; can these be left at default of zero?

I haven't reviewed every Blu-ray player. Honestly, I've only played with about 3-4 of them. The reviewers here can assist you with that. I've read many reviews. I've seen very few players (usually the earlier Samsung units having disc compatibility issues) get poor marks for Blu-Ray playback. Most tend to vary with startup and loading times and feature sets rather than Blu-Ray playback PQ.

Yes, I have read that too, that most of the issues come from playback loading times and firmware mishaps and such; I just need to know if there is tremendous quality differences in picture output between these players...

I bet if you got that Denon player and hooked it up the exact same way, you would have similar problems. It may be your Onkyo receiver setup (as Clint mentioned in a previous post).

Okay, now this is disheartening...what could the receiver possibly be introducing in terms of "robbing" the Blu-ray discs from resolution, quality, intensity, etc? If Denon's $2000 player performs the same way as the Panasonic, why do they charge such a premium for those players?

It could be your display settings. Again, let us know if your set is calibrated!

My set has been self-calibrated to basic values using a "DiscWasher" system disc; I am using the "Standard" picture mode and believe it or not, the settings were not far off the Sony default values for the basic settings according to what the calibration system told me:

Mode: Standard
Iris: Auto 1
Color Temp: Neutral
Picture: 80
Brightness: 53
Color: 50 (Sony's default seemed fine)
Hue: 0 (Sony's default seemed fine)
Sharpness: 50 (according to the calibration patterns the default of "50" didn't matter or seem too high)
Noise Reduction: Low

 

[ClinicaTerra]

I don't think there is any deinterlacing going on, since it should be an all digital transfer of 1080p to a compatible HDTV, though as you note, how they process and feed that signal will likely have an effect on the resulting picture.

So then all Blu-ray players are not of the same quality? There could possibly be "better performing ones" even with a simple 1080p transfer?

PQ is also affected by the capabilities of your display and the calibration of that display.

Indeed, I know this; unfortunately for me, this may be my problem...my rear projection 1080p set may be avoiding that "vibrant, enhanced dimensionality" that high def is supposed to have...I'm not even sure I'm using the right picture mode.

The thing is, would that "deep, rich, dimensional" look of 1080p Blu-ray REALLY be that affected -- to the point it wouldn't appear as high def -- by some picture controls being "off"?

 

[ClinicaTerra]

All I'm really trying to get at fellas is whether or not my Blu-ray player could be the culprit of not-so-hot performance...could high definition media playback be so affected by a particular player that there are actually visual differences in the way discs play back?

If the $2000 Denons and Marantzes will deliver "better," sharper, more detailed Blu-ray images off the discs over the lower-priced Panasonics, etc., I would gladly upgrade...but I don't know if they do...

 

[mike c]

wouldn't connecting the player directly to the TV either eliminate the player OR the receiver?

 

[obscbyclouds]

wouldn't connecting the player directly to the TV either eliminate the player OR the receiver?

Didn't we already try this on the other thread?

 

[ClinicaTerra]

Didn't we already try this on the other thread?

Yes, Clouds -- actually, this topic has gone a bit off the rails...

The issue I'm asking about here is if Blu-ray players are all created equal in that are those $2000 Denons really going to deliver a better picture than the $500 Panasonics?

 

[Seth=L]

Many older movies, like Independance Day, have horrible transfers to Blu-ray. I am not sure if ID4 is one that was a poor transfer, but it's not uncommon. The first release of Fifth Element was a huge dissapointment to say the least.

 

[ClinicaTerra]

Many older movies, like Independance Day, have horrible transfers to Blu-ray. I am not sure if ID4 is one that was a poor transfer, but it's not uncommon. The first release of Fifth Element was a huge dissapointment to say the least.

Thank you very much, Seth; this makes me feel a bit better that maybe the TRANSFERS themselves may be causing it, not the equipment -- I heard about the Fifth Element and how bad that was; I didn't think Independence Day was so "old" that it would have gotten a bad transfer to high def...in fact, I thought because this was such a big budget flick, it would have looked awesome...perhaps it was indeed the care Fox gave this transfer after all...

 

[Seth=L]

Thank you very much, Seth; this makes me feel a bit better that maybe the TRANSFERS themselves may be causing it, not the equipment -- I heard about the Fifth Element and how bad that was; I didn't think Independence Day was so "old" that it would have gotten a bad transfer to high def...in fact, I thought because this was such a big budget flick, it would have looked awesome...perhaps it was indeed the care Fox gave this transfer after all...

ID4's theatrical release was in 98', just four years after Fifth Element. Fifth Element was a big budget flick as well. Since they remastered Fifth Element it's no longer a big issue. The original version of Fifth Element on Blu-ray was featured on a single layer (25GB) disk that used MPEG-2 compression (the same compression method DVD uses). The remastered Blu-ray uses a dual layer 50GB disk and the AVC compression method. Dramatically better picture was immediately noticable.

 

[obscbyclouds]

I've noticed films encoded in AVC usually look vastly superior to those using MPEG-2. Another example is Spiderman 3 it looks awesome, though it may be a very medicore film.

 

[mike c]

Didn't we already try this on the other thread?

if i had a keyboard that could type in other languages ... i'd try those too

 

[j_garcia]

Go to www.highdefdigest.com and check out some of the titles listed as having 5 star picture quality. Pick one or two of them up and that should quickly tell you if you have simply been watching poorly mastered discs or if something is not up to par in the hardware.

 

[jostenmeat]

Clinica Terra,

I agree with nearly everything in this thread so far. Transfers are everything. Ok, almost everything...

my Pana BD-30 was rated #4 in the recent PC World, after a Phillips, PS3, and a Sharp, IIRC. Well, I wonder how good #1 looks, because my Pana seems to do more than an adequate job!!

Re your SXRD. I agree its a great pic and size for the money. I use lcos technology in my PJ. Anyways, I doubt "standard" is the ideal setting, perhaps something like "cinema" or "movie" will give you more accurate colors.

I also would not willingly set DNR to on anywhere. DNR is probably the easiest flaw for me to pick out as a noobie-videophile, and tends to makes faces anywhere from waxier to a bland looking sorta topographical infra-red map of the cheeks.

my first source for good transfer is the consumer voted PQ list at AVS:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858316

as others have said, try some top-rated PQ titles first. Then come back and give us your impressions.

 

[j_garcia]

I know my first few BDs were disappointing, but that is because they were some of the first releases (like Fifth Element, Sleepy Hollow, etc...) in which the PQ was only marginally better than the SD DVD, and in some cases worse. After reading reviews and trying some of the better looking titles, I finally saw what the big deal was

 

[jostenmeat]

Oh man, my Sleepy Hollow disc is still wrapped! Im too scared to even try it. One of my few very bad, very uneducated purchases...

House of Flying Daggers is still wrapped too.

I think I will sell them for $5 apiece to one of my friends, along with some other more desirable titles... bah, whatever, they weren't expensive discs, that's for sure.

All I can say now is that I am thoroughly spoiled!!!