Apple Lossless Revisited.

[EthicalEar]

I’ve searched the forums and did not find enough specifics on achieving Apple Lossless. This includes Wade’s article. Feel this topic can be re-addressed. First, a positive note. Apple Music sounds much better than all other streaming services that I’ve tried. I have 4 Apple TV’s for different rooms, and no complaints on 24/48, spatial and normal lossless. My windows PC ITUNES has only 162 Gigabytes of music that I rip mostly Lossless from CD’s. so some have 1,100+ bits. This, even to my old ears sounds pretty damn good, way better than 256.

Recently switched from my Iphone 6S (with actual headphone jack), now with Iphone XS Max. I have a IFi Hip Dac attached to it. I figure Hip Dac 2 is more for MQA – Tidal users and APPLE is not going that route so I got regular Hip Dac instead. Is this incorrect? Would Hip Dac 2 be of any improvement to APPLE only users?

My phone 512g doesn’t have my music downloaded. It just has my Library in the Cloud. When playing from my Library some of the 1,100 or 900+ kb songs say Lossless and some don’t. Some even say High-Res. Am I listening to MY High Quality CD Rip or am I listening to whatever APPLE has in their library even if it’s 256? It doesn’t sound as good to me when it doesn’t say Lossless or High-Res on my phone screen. If I’m right, is there anyway to Download my Library to my phone? Phone says it’s not needed due to Icloud library access.

Another question: My HipDac really sounds awesome with Lossless, spatial and Hi-Res. It sometimes sounds better than my Windows Itunes library with Focal Arche. With my phone/Hip Dac combo, (using my Focal Stellias), I hear a bigger soundstage than before and more music details! I can’t get the Green Indicator Light on the DAC to change to Yellow, Cyan or blue (even with firm ware update). But the sound quality is obvious to me. Are there any DAC’s that will show that Apple is sending a higher Bit rate 176/192? I know that Tidal and other services will change colors but why doesn’t Apple?

Last question: If I rip a CD that is 16/44.1 at a Lossless rate, and Apple plays it at 24/48 is that improved over the CD lossless? Or is it just saying it’s playing it at CD Quality using a rate that is capable of keeping it lossless. Forgive me as this question shows I’m needing some basics. I know when I’m playing my SACD’s at 24/192 I’m getting close to all possible detail available. But when it’s streaming, and the DAC lights don’t tell me, I don’t like guessing. Thanks for any feedback on these questions

 

[sterling shoote]

If you rip a CD to ALAC or AIFF it's going to play at 16/44.1, not 24/48. Also, what makes you think your SACDs are playing at 24/192?
The CD music you have placed in your iTunes Library may or may not be what you hear from your phone or PC. I have many rips, which at one time played from my library in ALAC but when I reinstalled iTunes I got AAC. I have no means to understand whether my iPhone plays rips in ALAC or AAC but I have set my iPhone to download in AAC and stream in hi-res. One more thing, to enjoy Spatial Audio other than from certain headphones you need an Apple TV connected to a Dolby Atmos enabled AVR or Pre-Pro.

 

[lovinthehd]

Last question: If I rip a CD that is 16/44.1 at a Lossless rate, and Apple plays it at 24/48 is that improved over the CD lossless? Or is it just saying it’s playing it at CD Quality using a rate that is capable of keeping it lossless. Forgive me as this question shows I’m needing some basics. I know when I’m playing my SACD’s at 24/192 I’m getting close to all possible detail available. But when it’s streaming, and the DAC lights don’t tell me, I don’t like guessing. Thanks for any feedback on these questions

The Apple is apparently changing it to the 24/48 format. It's not the original, but may sound just fine. I wouldn't call it improved, tho.

SACD is not natively 24/192 either....and while it may sound fine it's not the original stream....SACD uses a DSD is a one bit format with a 2.8MHz sample rate.(DSD 64) or maybe 5.6 MHz (DSD 128). SACDs though do have a normal redbook CD layer, too, which layer are you playing.....what specific SACD player do you use?

 

[EthicalEar]

Thanks for your replies. I have many SACDs and didn't specify. I play them with the DSD format and Surround sound if available. For 24/192 I have I have Alan Parsons HDAD Eye in the Sky and Turn of a Friendly Card I play them analog via multi-channel out with the 24/192 side playing. I can play the lower 24/96 side also. I can use my DVD player Pioneer DV600-AV. I'm sure I have more but cant' recall which ones. I have quite a few. I also have a sony 4k that plays SACD's as listed in my equipment, but it doesn't have multi-channel out, just HDMI. Other media includes Blu-ray 24/96 of Alan parsons tomai, Multiple Blu-ray audio disks which include my Pink floyd box sets and probably 15 more of others. I have DTS DVD Audio Tchaikovsky & Bach that play at 24/96. Rush Hybrid SACDs of Counterparts and Presto. Other SACD's Peter Gabriel UP, Dire Straits Brother's in Arms, BOC Secret Treaties, Carpenters singles, Aerosmith Toys, Pink Floyd Dark Side, and Cars Original Master Recordings Cars & heartbeat City. Bandwith upwards of 60Hz (it says),DSD 2.8MHz and Frequency response of DC to 100Hz. Okay these are numbers. 20+ DVD Audio discs from Dokken, Moody Blues, Steely Dan, ELP, Doors-LA Woman, Sting x4 and many more. 300+ DVD and Blu ray concerts.

Regarding my AV receivers I have many. Sony x4, Dennon, Yamaha. I have 4 Apple TV's. I get how to plug things in and get the best out of what I have. I even used an adaptor to my Fire Cube to plug it into a DAC to improve Amazon music - which I no longer use because Apple music sounds way better - spatial through Apple TV or through my Phone sounds great. My receiver verifies Dolby Atmos is playing when I'm playing the Spatial. One of my Fav albums for Spatial is Lorde Solar Power, but it's getting boring now. Fav songs are Savior by Rise Against, Chaise Lounge by Wet Leg, Purple Rain by Prince is incredible and lastly Choke by the Warning. That should be evidence to you that I hear good spatial effects in those songs. Need new stuff that isn't HipHop although I've heard that too with my 18yr old showing me what he enjoys. AVR auto switches to 2.1 when playing other music.

What I asked is sort of answered. Sterling your implying that Ripping a CD lossless is not going to be any better than 16/44.1. Okay so when Apple is streaming at 24/48 through my Apple TV and phone, what I am really listening to is still 16/44.1? That is my point. I also get that Apple is "Capable of streaming 24/48" But when they say Lossless is it 16/44.1? Perhaps it can be better quantified as Bit rate? say 900+ compared to 256 or 350? I think I'm trying to understand this Red Pill Rabbit hole of the stated Frequency is it actual or is it a range. if it's 16 or 24 bit, would it be cooler as a Bit rate per second as far as data or am I overlooking what 16 vs. 24 means. Thanks?
Apple just says "lossless or Hi-res". It sounds great. Hi-res sounds the best. What are they playing?

Keep in mind...I'm listening with my Focal Stellia's. I'm not missing much detail when it's provided.

I've listened to Amazon music at 24/192 songs by I think it was Carly Simon and there were others. They sounded Ehh, nothing special. With Apple music I've streamed Eagles Hotel California supposed to be 24/192 through my phone w/Hip Dac combo-Balanced output. It did have some qualities that I didn't hear before with CD or Vinyl. My DAC light doesn't tell me the quality. It's supposed to change colors but online it says that USB port plays it but colors may not change. Is there a DAC where colors work with Apple so I can see?
To sum it up: 1: What is apple music playing at when they say Lossless, what is it when it's High Res?
on Iphone with DAC?
2: Does it work with a MacBook Pro & Dac and specify bit rate? What DAC?
3: Bit rate for Lossless and High Res vs. 16/44.1 and 24/48? = please help me to understand.

I'm sure my collection of CD/SACD, HDAD, HiRes, DVD audio and Blu-Ray audio is not near yours. I know they sound good and they are not all much better than 24/96, some are 16/44.1 but surround sound.

 

[lovinthehd]

Okay, that's some more info....but what is HDAD? You mean HDCD?

A redbook cd playback is normally 1411 mbps, but if recorded in a lossless format like ALAC or FLAC will probably show somewhere in the 800-900 range for the most part. Some older SACD players had analog out after internal conversion, some without internal conversion/analog capability for output need HDMI for exporting the multich file for conversion by the avr/dac.

Just because a dac can upsample doesn't reflect any improvements, as the original file really can't be "improved".

 

[Trebdp83]

About lossless audio in Apple Music - Apple Support

Learn about lossless audio in Apple Music and how to turn it on or off for your device.

support.apple.com

 

[Trebdp83]

If it sounds good, enjoy. Can’t think of anybody who ever actually caught the dragon. Rips sound best in AIFF here. Qobuz wins for me with 24/192 content. Apple Music atmos tracks sound better than Tidal atmos tracks. F#%k Apple and Tidal though for their hi-res implementation. Peter Gabriel’s “UP” is one of my favorite SACDs. Yello’s “Point” album is the most fun in atmos. It’s just a good time and makes good use of the format.

 

[sterling shoote]

OP, let me just get to the bottom line, my Apple Music experience via iPhone, laptop, or iMAC suggests that I cannot distinguish AAC streams and downloads from CD, 24/96 FLAC, or 24/192 ALAC; thus, I am no longer inclined to purchase hi-res music. I suspect Spatial Audio would be a pleasure since I enjoy 5.1 SACDs; but I do not have an Apple TV needed to confirm my speculation.

 

[Am_P]

First, a positive note. Apple Music sounds much better than all other streaming services that I’ve tried.

What are the different streaming services you tried? How did apple sound better than all of them? (Hoping this isn't a brand loyalty thing). I ask because it sounds like a mixed bag to me between Qobuz, Amazon music and Apple, which are the ones I have tried. Apple didn't come out on top as a definitive winner.

 

[EthicalEar]

What are the different streaming services you tried? How did apple sound better than all of them? (Hoping this isn't a brand loyalty thing). I ask because it sounds like a mixed bag to me between Qobuz, Amazon music and Apple, which are the ones I have tried. Apple didn't come out on top as a definitive winner.

I believe what sounds much better to me is subjective. Equipment, plays a big role. I don't have any cool Network streaming players like Cambridge Audio, NAD, Naim. Just tried Spotify, Amazon prime, and Apple. My questions were not about finding or naming the best service so I don't want to go there, but rather learn what is happening.
I greatly appreciate TREB DB 83's comment on "catching the dragon".

I have built a huge Itunes library over the years on my computer since switching from the old Windows Media player. I used to carry it around on Classic IPODs. Now I find my phone plays my library and streams. So, I'm not brand bias but rather already started with Apple, and thus resistant to change. Amazon did have me going for awhile. Also Groove because when I got AFLAC files (usually bonus with a Box set purchase), it goes to a zip file and Groove to play it, so I tried Groove and then it went bye bye, but still plays my AFLAC files. Basically Apple requires apple stuff to get the best out of it. I don't like that aspect but I'm too far into it to change. It sucks that Windows Itunes won't let me play Apple music at lossless and high res formats. It would have made life too easy. The Spatial and High res stuff through my Apple TV to AVR and through my Iphone with attached DAC, sounds good enough to my old ears. I still catch the detail when listening to higher frequency resolution and separation and layers of sound. Background singers I hear them all. I even hear layered Drum tracks on "In the Air tonight" or layered guitar tracks that I hadn't heard separated before. Vocal layering is the most prevalent an obvious for me to pick up. The most fun is the orchestral instrumentation. Instead of reed instruments I hear the Contra and the oboe and e flat clarinet and the differences in the violins are tear invoking. Almost all types of music - not much for Hip Hop or Country unless it has a very good musical quality. I like folk though. So when I listen to good high resolution audio I re-enjoy music I've known as though hearing it again the first time in a new way. I realize I should try Tidal and Qobuz, but I haven't yet. To busy trying to get the best out of my Apple music at this point. Thanks everyone.

 

[EthicalEar]

Okay, that's some more info....but what is HDAD? You mean HDCD?

A redbook cd playback is normally 1411 mbps, but if recorded in a lossless format like ALAC or FLAC will probably show somewhere in the 800-900 range for the most part. Some older SACD players had analog out after internal conversion, some without internal conversion/analog capability for output need HDMI for exporting the multich file for conversion by the avr/dac.

Just because a dac can upsample doesn't reflect any improvements, as the original file really can't be "improved".

 

[EthicalEar]

View attachment 51855

The HDAD stands for Hypbrid DVD Audio Disc. Two sided DVD disc with 24/192 data playable on DVD audio players, flip side has 24/96.

 

[EthicalEar]

If it sounds good, enjoy. Can’t think of anybody who ever actually caught the dragon. Rips sound best in AIFF here. Qobuz wins for me with 24/192 content. Apple Music atmos tracks sound better than Tidal atmos tracks. F#%k Apple and Tidal though for their hi-res implementation. Peter Gabriel’s “UP” is one of my favorite SACDs. Yello’s “Point” album is the most fun in atmos. It’s just a good time and makes good use of the format.

Listening to Yello now. Pretty cool! Thanks!

 

[Trebdp83]

It's available in atmos on disc as well. I just keep putting off getting it.