Anyone else with Telarc's Holst's The Planets?

[rynberg]

I have the Telarc recording of The Planets (Atlantic Symphony Orchestra), and wanted to see if any other owners have noticed something....

Several of the movements (Venus, Saturn, Neptune especially) have some extremely low frequencies at high levels that do not seem to be pipe organ related. I'll have to go back and relisten to get the exact part of which movement, but I sat there and was feeling slightly "pressurized" , pulled the grille off my sub, and watched the driver pounding out some really low freqs for a continuous span of over 2 minutes.

Anyone else own this recording and have a capable sub that can comment?

 

[Tod]

I don't have that one - I love all other Telarc recordings except their ones with ASO, which come across as too muddy. I suppose you could call it warm, but I'd go with muddy. And that might actually have a bit to do with the issue.

I do have one other recording that does something like that though, a Decca Janacek disc. There are some places on it, which I assumed were some weird sort of room resonance, where the sub just freaks out. Probably the same thing with yours. I really doubt the sound as the electronics play it back existed in the hall at recording time, but maybe there's just something weird that resonates just right with the mikes or somewhere else in the recording process. Maybe a very "warm", resonant hall like the one in Atlanta is more likely to have that happen than others.

???

 

[rynberg]

Well, I am an acoustical consultant so I am pretty familiar with the types of noise intrusion that can occur, and this doesn't seem like anything mechanical. Although, since it is really below my hearing, it could potentially be a large diesel engine idling outside the hall. Somehow I don't think that's likely.

I guess I'll have to stop being forgetful/lazy and bring the CD in to work and perform a frequency analysis on it...

 

[race4aliving]

I have it on direct to disc vinyl. I haven't heard it for years. If i remember right I only played 3 times and then put it tape, which was my standard practice at the time so most of my vinyl has VERY few plays on it. especially now that I don't have a turntable anymore.

 

[Pyrrho]

I have the Telarc recording of The Planets (Atlantic Symphony Orchestra), and wanted to see if any other owners have noticed something....

Several of the movements (Venus, Saturn, Neptune especially) have some extremely low frequencies at high levels that do not seem to be pipe organ related. I'll have to go back and relisten to get the exact part of which movement, but I sat there and was feeling slightly "pressurized" , pulled the grille off my sub, and watched the driver pounding out some really low freqs for a continuous span of over 2 minutes.

Anyone else own this recording and have a capable sub that can comment?

I don't have that recording of the piece, but I am familiar with the piece. Based on my experience with The Planets, I think it is some really low organ notes, not something else. The piece calls for some seriously low notes (well, I have not looked at the score, but it is there on my CD). Really deep pipe organ is more felt than heard. Also, it is possible that your subwoofer is distorting because of the loud, deep notes, and that, of course, wouldn't be pipe organ sound.

 

[jostenmeat]

Rynberg,

i have that disc, and while having not played it for a few years, i do recall it has nearly subsonic bass at times. Maybe there is a subway or a big truck passed by the hall, thereby causing the mic to pick up these sounds???

That's a funny question, hehe... I once heard a gorgeous outtake of a Handel recording in a church in the middle of night, and this large truck passes by rattling the heck out of everything, short pause, and then a loud "PH*$@#$&*^@" but with a very Scottish accent. Ya, but I still doubt that a large diesel nearby is the case, lol.

I don't have the Planets, and am not familiar with it, but it appears that Neptune was originally scored for organ, and that the others for piano duet. I do not know if the original orchestration did not include organ, but nevertheless it would not surprise me at all if a new orchestration was since created to include it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Planets

You'll see Ravel's orchestration of "Pictures at an Exhibition" from a piano work, or Schoenberg's Verklarte Nacht for either string sextet (my preferred, easily) or large string orchestra, for a couple of examples. I've heard Bach's Ciaconna for voice + violin, or solo piano, and in other settings.

Of course, the most famous work with organ within a symphonic work is Saint-Saens #3. Depending on my mood, a bit long, but man its entirely dramatic to have organ with orchestra!

 

[rynberg]

Thanks for the further input gents, I haven't had time to rip this at work for analysis given it's been one of those 60-hour weeks.

1. It is not the subwoofer distorting.
2. There is most definitely pipe organ on the work, and it is used to great effect in some of the movements.
3. The portions I'm talking about have a consistent level of 20 Hz or less signal for over 2 minutes. While it could certainly be a pedal tone on the largest two pipes, the duration and consistency of it, as well as the musical location doesn't necessarily make "musical sense".
4. I know my sub has a little peak (3-4 dB) in the 20-22 Hz range, but have felt little need to EQ it out. Perhaps that is exaggerating a natural musical event if it is indeed a long pedal tone.

I really need to get this into the office for analysis.

 

[Tod]

Mildly off-topic - there is an interesting recording on the Raven label with peter Sykes as the organist playing his own arrangement for pipe organ of The Planets. The liner notes say at one point in Neptune, it took both of his hands and feet, both of the hands of an assistant, plus a pencil in the mouth holding a long note to play all that was needed!

It is a fun recording, and it's pipe organ after all so what could be bad?

 

[pzaur]

Have the score in front of me.
No organ used for Mercury. The double basses barely dip below the bass clef staff during this movement. If they do, it's for a short period.

Used for Saturn. It doubles the double bass part reaching down to a C below the staff. This at least means the basses are still one octave lower than written in pitch. The score also states "16 ft and 32 ft" for the organ part. I have no clue what this means. It's not used continuously. It enters at rehearsal marker VI which is where the harps have running 16th notes and the flutes have a lyrical, non-syncopated part.

I would think that there is some sort of loop recorded on the recording or some weird acoustical phenomenon occurring. There's just nothing in the music for the lengths your talking about.

I was looking off the Dover edition of the score.

-pat

 

[pzaur]

Low C

The C the basses are playing is ~32.7hz. Not low enough to be what I think is being described. I'm guessing that the organ is also playing the same pitch. I could be wrong on this, but, I don't think so.

If you want some low organ, listen to the opening to Also Sprach Zarathustra. It's my understanding that the organ hits the pedal an octave lower or two than the orchestra. It takes some real subwoofer cojones to reproduce that bad boy!
I've never heard it since my gear can't reproduce sounds that low.

-pat

 

[Pyrrho]

Have the score in front of me.
No organ used for Mercury. The double basses barely dip below the bass clef staff during this movement. If they do, it's for a short period.

Used for Saturn. It doubles the double bass part reaching down to a C below the staff. This at least means the basses are still one octave lower than written in pitch. The score also states "16 ft and 32 ft" for the organ part. I have no clue what this means. It's not used continuously. It enters at rehearsal marker VI which is where the harps have running 16th notes and the flutes have a lyrical, non-syncopated part.

I would think that there is some sort of loop recorded on the recording or some weird acoustical phenomenon occurring. There's just nothing in the music for the lengths your talking about.

I was looking off the Dover edition of the score.

-pat

He did not mention Mercury. Only Venus, Saturn, Neptune are specifically mentioned by rynberg.

The C the basses are playing is ~32.7hz. Not low enough to be what I think is being described. I'm guessing that the organ is also playing the same pitch. I could be wrong on this, but, I don't think so.

If you want some low organ, listen to the opening to Also Sprach Zarathustra. It's my understanding that the organ hits the pedal an octave lower or two than the orchestra. It takes some real subwoofer cojones to reproduce that bad boy!
I've never heard it since my gear can't reproduce sounds that low.

-pat

Since he did not say anything about measuring the tone, it is possible that 32.7 Hz might be low enough to be what he is talking about. And, of course, the organ might be playing lower than the basses you mention.

I know that with a recording I have, there is a low, seemingly continuous (for significant lengths, anyway) bass that is hard to determine what it is (though I think it is a very low pipe organ sound).

rynberg, why don't you contact Telarc and ask them what it is? I would be willing to bet that it is the sound of an organ, unless you are grossly misdescribing what you are hearing.

 

[rynberg]

Thanks for looking at the score and other assistance guys. I finally got around to ripping the CD last night for analysis, although I only had time to look at the first minute of Venus.

When this movement comes on, all of the sudden there is a pressurization feeling and a very low frequency tone is audible close to the subwoofer.

The analysis shows random high levels of noise between 12 and 15 Hz. This is non-musical (below the 16 Hz of a 32-foot organ pipe pedal tone), random, and constant through the first minute. You should see the driver moving on this section. There is also a fairly steady tone at 22-24 Hz, which also appears to be non-musical. This is the tone I can hear as I move closer to the sub.

I will have to look at the other movements when I have time. The thing is that this disturbance is not audible in Mars or some of the other movements. It is possible although highly unlikely that it is due to HVAC noise in the hall. I'll try to post a screen shot later.

As far as contacting Telarc, that is a good idea and I will do so. I'm very surprised that such an error would have made it through their high production standards. Perhaps they use a high-pass filter for recordings not involving pipe organ to prevent such occurances.

 

[pzaur]

Pyrrho - you're right. I meant Venus, not Mercury. I was looking at the title page for the Mercury movement when I typed it and didn't catch the mistake.

I still believe it isn't anything musical. There's no organ used in Venus. The double basses only reach down to an Eb which is higher than the C I mentioned earlier.

-pat

 

[Pyrrho]

Thanks for looking at the score and other assistance guys. I finally got around to ripping the CD last night for analysis, although I only had time to look at the first minute of Venus.

When this movement comes on, all of the sudden there is a pressurization feeling and a very low frequency tone is audible close to the subwoofer.

The analysis shows random high levels of noise between 12 and 15 Hz. This is non-musical (below the 16 Hz of a 32-foot organ pipe pedal tone), random, and constant through the first minute. You should see the driver moving on this section. There is also a fairly steady tone at 22-24 Hz, which also appears to be non-musical. This is the tone I can hear as I move closer to the sub.

I will have to look at the other movements when I have time. The thing is that this disturbance is not audible in Mars or some of the other movements. It is possible although highly unlikely that it is due to HVAC noise in the hall. I'll try to post a screen shot later.

As far as contacting Telarc, that is a good idea and I will do so. I'm very surprised that such an error would have made it through their high production standards. Perhaps they use a high-pass filter for recordings not involving pipe organ to prevent such occurances.

Evidently, professional reviewers disagree with you about this disc:

http://www.telarc.com/gscripts/title.asp?gsku=0466&mscssid=S77EPPVW3PRJ9HN8MHFRECQ10343EEBD

The sound quality is excellent...

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2005/Aug05/Holst_planets_CD80466.htm

First Choice

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/cdreview/pip/e67zd/



I really don't think it is noise that you are finding on the disc. When someone tells you that the lowest note on an organ is about 16 Hz, that is the primary tone, not all of the various other constituents of the sound (these other constituents of the sound are what make it sound like an organ, not a test tone).

By all means, ask Telarc what it is that you are hearing, and please let us know what they say.

 

[rynberg]

Oh don't get me wrong...the performance and the disc in general sounds incredible. However, I'm not sure how many music reviewers have a system that can put out output below 20 Hz.

I will be emailing Telarc in regards to this...