Another Bose fan bites the dust...

[seymoria]

Hi everyone.

Been browsing this great forum for some days. A University, a Consultant and a Market all combined into one! A really great place to find.

Like many newbies who frequent here seeking guidance on a new costly purchase, I also intend to get a piece of advice or two here.

Till stumbling upon this forum, I was a great fan of Bose Corporation. In the music shops, their speakers sounded out of this world. The great sound coming out of those tiny little cubes was unbelievable. Till a week ago, I was all ready with savings of about 2000 $ saved round the year to finally sink my teeth into the supposedly juicy Bose T-20 Home Theater System (to be hooked up with my new Samsung 55" 6 series LCD)....finally, a dream to be come true. Until I came upon this place. After reading people's views about Bose, its superhuman image was shattered. It was shocking to read all these people's experiences. I am therefore seriously rethinking on my options (although I did get another urge recently while visiting their shop, when I found a brand new factory refurb V-20 going for $1200).

Having said above, I am now as lost as I was decisive a week ago. I now seek your kind guidance on what to look for, based on the following requirements :

For movies : I am primarily looking for crispness and clarity of sound (such as discerning the slightest whisper) rather than loudness and boom (am not a fan of action movies);

For Music : I am looking for immersive sound in my room (operas, instrumentals, 'arena' music etc). Not like directional booms and bass, like in pop music (but yes, Rock, like that of U2).

1) Although Denon or Onkyo receivers are the one to go for, reading their praise here, when it comes to the speaker systems, things are not as decisive or clear. There is baffling array of brands and specifications (Morduant, HSU, Aperion, Mirage, Orb, EMP, Klipsch, Definitive and many others). Could you suggest any specific speaker systems from these manufacturers? Which of these is the top of the line brand?

2) When we buy an HTIB, we need not worry about hookups and compatibility but otherwise, the complexity of the whole affair looks intimidating. I have found one nice HTIB choice as below (but I apprehend that Onkyo doesnt make really great speakers) :

Onkyo HT-S9300THX THX Certified 7.1 Channel
Home Theater Receiver/Speaker Package ($850 on Amazon)

I Would love your gracious and valuable suggestions.

Best Regards.
Amer

(p.s. I may be asking some very naive questions, so please smile away..)

 

[highfigh]

Hi everyone.

Been browsing this great forum for some days. A University, a Consultant and a Market all combined into one! A really great place to find.

Like many newbies who frequent here seeking guidance on a new costly purchase, I also intend to get a piece of advice or two here.

Till stumbling upon this forum, I was a great fan of Bose Corporation. In the music shops, their speakers sounded out of this world. The great sound coming out of those tiny little cubes was unbelievable. Till a week ago, I was all ready with savings of about 2000 $ saved round the year to finally sink my teeth into the supposedly juicy Bose T-20 Home Theater System (to be hooked up with my new Samsung 55" 6 series LCD)....finally, a dream to be come true. Until I came upon this place. After reading people's views about Bose, its superhuman image was shattered. It was shocking to read all these people's experiences. I am therefore seriously rethinking on my options (although I did get another urge recently while visiting their shop, when I found a brand new factory refurb V-20 going for $1200).

Having said above, I am now as lost as I was decisive a week ago. I now seek your kind guidance on what to look for, based on the following requirements :

For movies : I am primarily looking for crispness and clarity of sound (such as discerning the slightest whisper) rather than loudness and boom (am not a fan of action movies);

For Music : I am looking for immersive sound in my room (operas, instrumentals, 'arena' music etc). Not like directional booms and bass, like in pop music (but yes, Rock, like that of U2).

1) Although Denon or Onkyo receivers are the one to go for, reading their praise here, when it comes to the speaker systems, things are not as decisive or clear. There is baffling array of brands and specifications (Morduant, HSU, Aperion, Mirage, Orb, EMP, Klipsch, Definitive and many others). Could you suggest any specific speaker systems from these manufacturers? Which of these is the top of the line brand?

2) When we buy an HTIB, we need not worry about hookups and compatibility but otherwise, the complexity of the whole affair looks intimidating. I have found one nice HTIB choice as below (but I apprehend that Onkyo doesnt make really great speakers) :

Onkyo HT-S9300THX THX Certified 7.1 Channel
Home Theater Receiver/Speaker Package ($850 on Amazon)

I Would love your gracious and valuable suggestions.

Best Regards.
Amer

(p.s. I may be asking some very naive questions, so please smile away..)

I'll address the second point first- looking at all of the possible connections on the equipment is about the last thing that is needed when considering this kind of system. When you look at the whole pile of equipment and multiply that by the number of inputs and outputs, it can easily be intimidating. What you need to do is consider ONLY the piece that you're connecting at that time. Look for the jacks you'll be using and choose the cabling according to that.

As an example, consider what's needed to connect a DVD/BlueRay player

HDMI only, HDMI output -> HDMI input on the receiver. Done- move on to the next source.

If using component video (soon to be a thing of the past on BlueRay),

Component video output -> component video in, matching the colors. Digital audio output -> digital output input. Done- move on to the next piece.

HDMI from the receiver to the TV. Easy. Component video to the TV- easy.

If you think about it, it would be possible to connect a receiver, TV, Cable box and DVD/BlueRay player using 5 cables.

 

[lsiberian]

without a budget specific recommendations are hard to make. HTIB systems are usually not the best choice. I'd recommend some Infinity speakers and maybe an Onkyo receiver.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Some cable/sat boxes have HDMI ports which actually works (like mine does) so if going HDMI route - all you need is 3 cables

On your first question:
We have millions of posts about choosing speakers, but they end up with two major points:
1) Best speakers - are the once you heard and loved.
2) Best speakers in the world could sound like crap in YOUR room.

Conclusion:
To correctly evaluate speakers - you must listen to them in your home.

While,not easiest way, but totally doable is to pick reliable internet direct brand which offers free 30 days in home trials and test them yourself.

If music and precision is your priority, Axiom are usually excel in those categories. On choosing sub -> pick sealed ones vs ported.

 

[sholling]

The first thing to keep in mind is that speakers are very subjective so any suggestions are just that. You'll want to get out and listen whenever possible. Of course that's not always possible - like with internet direct brands. And audio salesmen have been know to adjust their showrooms to favor the sound of high commission items. Add in the fact that speakers can sound completely different once you get them home means that you want to deal with a company with a 100% no questions money back return policy.

Okay with all that said room size and listening distance will make a huge difference in your choices. Not only for the speakers themselves but also the subwoofer. In fact subwoofer selection requires knowing the total volume including any rooms and hallways that are open to your listening room. Finally consider starting with the the best 2.1 or 3.1 speakers that you can afford and adding surrounds or center and surrounds later when you've saved a bit more. Okay on to a couple of ideas based on your $2000 figure.

For a medium sized room my favorite affordable speakers are Usher's S-520 bookshelves ($400/pr, review). These are very good little speakers for jazz, classical, and classic rock music. These aren't the ones you pick for a dorm room. Their downside is they aren't big enough to fill a large room and they must be crossed over to a subwoofer no lower than 80hz to avoid bottoming the woofers. But they are amazing little speakers. The matched center is the S-525 ($370) which is a 4ohm speaker and will require a 4ohm friendly receiver. I just run 3 of the 8ohm S-520 bookshelves instead of the dedicated center. Later you could add another pair of S-520s for surrounds.

For a large room it's pretty hard to beat the OneCall deal on the long discontinued Boston Acoustics VR3 floorstanders. I owned a pair and they are very good speakers. OneCall bundles them (new in box) with the matched VRC center for $810 shipped. This bundle would have sold for $1500 before they were discontinued. The downside is it's a sight unseen (heard) purchase. Later you could add a pair of CS26 bookshelves ($70-100ea) as surrounds. These are big speakers and need 18-24" behind them and 2-3' to any side walls but they are super easy to drive and will sound great in a medium to very large room.

I won't even take a swing at recommending a subwoofer without total room volume. Instead I suggest that you contact SVSounds, Epik, and Hsu Research and have them size a sub (or 2) to fill your room. They'll need to know your room volume including attached spaces and listening habits. All are super honest and none will try to oversell you. If anything they might error on the conservative side.

Receivers: Always pick out your speakers first and then buy a receiver based on the needs of the speakers and the features that you want. If you go with one of the above choices then (assuming you live in the US) I'd go with a factory refurbished Onkyo either last year's TX-SR707 or this year's TX-NR708. Both have plenty of power for the above speakers, both are 4ohm certified, both have pre-outs should you want to add an amp later, both feature Audyssey MultiEQ. The main difference is this year's 708 adds 3D and network capabilities. $400-530.

None of these is hard to hookup and you'll get good quality speaker, subwoofer, and HDMI cables cheap at Monoprice.com.

 

[seymoria]

without a budget specific recommendations are hard to make. HTIB systems are usually not the best choice. I'd recommend some Infinity speakers and maybe an Onkyo receiver.

Budget is around $2000 maximum, including everything. (Maybe a $100 up or down).

 

[3db]

I'm the redient PSB fan boy in these parts. They make a great product. Everyone who ended buying them like them alot. For your budget, I woyold suggest http://www.psbspeakers.com/Image-home-theater-systems (concert home series) . I have a previous generation PSB set-up and it excels in all kinds of music as well as home theater. They may not be your cup of tea becasue its all subjective but you should listen to them. Listen to alot of different systems.

What I would do is to take a pad of paper with you, write down the make and
model of each speaker you audition and what you liked and disliked about the
speakers you were auditioning. Was the bass tight and deep or was it boomy and loose sounding? Were the mids life like or were they hollow or just too pronounced? Was the treble irritating and harsh or were they dark and not revealing or were they smooththat made you want to listen for more? How was the imaging?

Bring music with you that you are very familiar with and know quite well. To
make it easier to audition HT speaker systems, listen to the main speakers in 2
channel mode with music. Music is much harder to reproduce accurately then a movie soundtrack so if the speakers do well with music, then they will do well with HT. Speakers that do HT well may not do well with music. When auditioning the center channel of the same brand and series as the main speakers, pick a difficult source like an announcer that mumbles alot. If you can understand what the mumbling announcer is saying, then you have a good center channel.

I would go to speciality stores first and start auditioning speakers first
instead of going to the internet first. Once your likes are determined, you can
mention them here and fellow members can make internet brand recommendations based on your likes/dislikes. The specality stores are better setup acousticaly then the big box stores which will make auditioning a little easier. It will give you an idea of what you like in a speaker.

Keep track of what amp or receiver is powering the speakers you're auditioning. Try to get a receiver/amp that closest resembles what you have or want to get. It just reduces another variable when audtioning speakers.


One thing to keep note off. When auditioning speakers, make sure the volume
levels are matched between the diiferent speaker pairs because the louder
speaker pair will always sound better. Listen to levels that you think you
would listen to most of the time because thats how you are going to be using
them most of the time.

 

[m_vanmeter]

I know this adds to the confusion, but here are three internet direct companies who make very good speakers at reasonable prices.

Hsu Research, SV Sound, and Ascend Audio. All have at least a 30 day in-home satisfaction warranty, but you will have to keep all the shipping materials and pay for return shipping, if for some reason you do not like the speakers ordered. Return shipping is not a trivial cost for larger, heaver speakers.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/enthusiast2.html
http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-scs01.cfm
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1/srm1.html or
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340m/cmt340m.html

based on your description of your listening tastes, I suggest you read up on the HSU HB-1 MK2 loaded horn speakers and their subwoofers.

good luck, the "road to audio nirvana" can be a fun experience in learning, and possibly a new obsession attached to a money pit you throw hard earned funds into (it's called upgrade-itus)

 

[sawzalot]

I am not a big fan of the whole HTIB idea and I will surely hear some negativity about this but I bought the same Onkyo HTIB that you listed for my son to hook up at school I looked everywhere on line for reviews and comments about the right direction to go if I wanted to get such an item and a respectable member at a neighboring forum suggested that model he had one like it made by Onkyo and thought they were the best complete in one box set-ups on the market so I tried it and it really is perfect for my son he has his ps3 60gig hooked up to it with a 32 inch Olevia lcd and it is perfect for his needs and all the hook ups are clearly marked for the easiest set up possible which was important for him as he is just not that Audio savvy so I think I could say that this particular model of the HTIB is at least above average in regards to those types of set-ups,I gave it a listen with Kung Fu Panda and it was definitely a winner for some one going that route for the very first time, sawz.

 

[seymoria]

Dear all.
Thank you very much for your very kind and generous suggestions.

I am terribly sorry that I did not mention it correctly in my earlier post. I am not based in the US myself but I have a brother who lives there and who visited the Bose showrooms. He will be doing the purchase for me.

Although I will try to communicate the auditioning recommendations to him, he is not much into audio and would mostly rely on his intuition for guidance. Accordingly, I am afraid I do not have much of the option of : (1) Listening live before buying, (2) Returning after purchase, (3) Have a seller size things up at my place.

Due to the above facts and also due to the scope of investment, I would very much like to buy something thats for keeps (at least for the next 5 years). For example, I would not like to dump it if I change my apartment (with different living conditions such as room size, house plan, neighbours, etc.). Therefore please advise if speaker systems are strictly location-customized. Or maybe a conservative /flexible selection could cover most possibilities? (Question : Can we use a large room speaker system in smaller rooms?).

Although primarily for TV/theater, something that also works for music (most genres) would be very desirable due to above reasons. Is it possible to have an all encompassing speaker combination that could cater to most listening possiblities? If not, then my priority is for TV/theater. (I generally avoid loudness, booms / wall vibrating bass and prefer mellow, immersive sounds).

Also please help me find how the following standard types of speakers are different in their applications. Is it possible that a combination of some of them could possible meet my requirements?
- Bookshelf
- Tower
- In wall
- Center
- Sub
- Home theater

Finally, I do understand that hooking up should pose no problem for me, although the Onkyo HTIB I picked is still on my cards, as praised by one of the experienced users here. (Btw, I dont know the reason for their low popularity; maybe because they dont cater to music and only to movies?).

Thanks a lot again and my aplogies for the earlier miscommunication.

Amer

(p.s. The recommendations for Boston Acoustics, Usher's and HSU look great. So is PSB but doesnt mention price? I would also request model recommendations for Infinity and Axiom as suggested above. No one has suggested Aperion; I probably erroneaously thought they were the top of the line of the common brands).

 

[GranteedEV]

First of all - speaker wire is important. No, not because it'll change the quality of sound, but simply because it connects your receiver to the speakers. Simply put, you need to know how much you need for the room it's going to be in. A 250 foot roll of 14 awg speaker wire is a good way to start. Additionally, a decision on stands or mounts for any bookshelves you buy should be made prior to the decision. The last thing you want is to buy a speaker and then fail to find a place to put it because your budget ran out. Let's maybe leave around 200 dollars for these things out of the budget.

Now my reccomendation on the receiver front is an older refurbished receiver. Something like the marantz SR5004 from accessories4less.com - only $400 + shipping. Let's assume 100 dollars shipping, although I really don't know where you live or where it'll be shipped. So 500 dollars.

Now - that leaves us with about 1300 dollars to spend on speakers. Do not jump on 7.1 just yet - go for quality front soundstage first and foremost, and then some regular surrounds for 5.0

Since it's mostly for HT, I think bookshelves are indeed a better choice for you. The aformentioned ushers are a ridiculously good looking pair that I nearly jumped on myself. two pairs of those, plus the matching center, however, would leave no room in the budget for a subwoofer. Even if action movies aren't your thing, I really do suggest a decent subwoofer just because it is its own channel in any movie, plus there's important musical frequencies which those bookshelves can't reproduce. So let's start with maybe 300 dollars for a sub budget. Can't really go wrong with the HSU STF1, but it is an 8-inch woofer. I'd personally go with at least a 10 on any sub, so I say go with the STF-2 instead.

Another sub you ought to look into in that general price range IMO is a DIY elemental designs kit... if you're willing to assemble it and not deal with veneering.

Now we've got about 1000 dollars budget for a 5.0 system. That's kind of tough, luckily EMP's got their old lineup of speakers on clearance sale right now... bite on that. No they're not a top of the line company. I mean they're still very quality and all, but they're a budget daughter company of RBH. RBH's ultra-high end daughter company, Status Acoustics actually sells some speakers for like 50000 dollars, so I don't think "top of line" could possibly apply to something as value-oriented as EMP.

But they'll still kick ***. I've got some e55tis, and they've got nice highs that resolve detail without hurting your ears, great clear mids, and really soothing, wonderful lows. Those are a bit out of a budget though IMO, but their old series which may even have been better, is on for a great price.

http://www.emptek.com/special_f300t_e10s.php

now you've got some other factors to consider

- DO I need 2 subs? - the advantage of having both the HSU and the EMP sub might be much improved bass response at different places in the room instead of peaks and valkeys, but they're not matching subs on that note. I don't know how they would mesh together.

So on that note, you may want to

a) scrap the HSU sub altogether and just go with the package deal
b) contact EMP and see if they can arrange replacing the subwoofer with another pair of bookshelves
c) stick with both options, and you may still have budget money for another pair of bookshelves. Call EMP's phone number and see what they can arrange for you.

 

[shadyJ]

I would stay away from the EMP sub, but their speakers look fine. If you go with the EMP towers, the bass from their sub will be awfully thin. Go with Hsu Research, Outlaw Audio, or Elemental Designs for subs.

 

[sholling]

I would stay away from the EMP sub, but their speakers look fine. If you go with the EMP towers, the bass from their sub will be awfully thin. Go with Hsu Research, Outlaw Audio, or Elemental Designs for subs.

What he said.

 

[3db]

Dear all.
Thank you very much for your very kind and generous suggestions.

I am terribly sorry that I did not mention it correctly in my earlier post. I am not based in the US myself but I have a brother who lives there and who visited the Bose showrooms. He will be doing the purchase for me.

Although I will try to communicate the auditioning recommendations to him, he is not much into audio and would mostly rely on his intuition for guidance. Accordingly, I am afraid I do not have much of the option of : (1) Listening live before buying, (2) Returning after purchase, (3) Have a seller size things up at my place.

Due to the above facts and also due to the scope of investment, I would very much like to buy something thats for keeps (at least for the next 5 years). For example, I would not like to dump it if I change my apartment (with different living conditions such as room size, house plan, neighbours, etc.). Therefore please advise if speaker systems are strictly location-customized. Or maybe a conservative /flexible selection could cover most possibilities? (Question : Can we use a large room speaker system in smaller rooms?).

Although primarily for TV/theater, something that also works for music (most genres) would be very desirable due to above reasons. Is it possible to have an all encompassing speaker combination that could cater to most listening possiblities? If not, then my priority is for TV/theater. (I generally avoid loudness, booms / wall vibrating bass and prefer mellow, immersive sounds).

Also please help me find how the following standard types of speakers are different in their applications. Is it possible that a combination of some of them could possible meet my requirements?
- Bookshelf
- Tower
- In wall
- Center
- Sub
- Home theater

Finally, I do understand that hooking up should pose no problem for me, although the Onkyo HTIB I picked is still on my cards, as praised by one of the experienced users here. (Btw, I dont know the reason for their low popularity; maybe because they dont cater to music and only to movies?).

Thanks a lot again and my aplogies for the earlier miscommunication.

Amer

(p.s. The recommendations for Boston Acoustics, Usher's and HSU look great. So is PSB but doesnt mention price? I would also request model recommendations for Infinity and Axiom as suggested above. No one has suggested Aperion; I probably erroneaously thought they were the top of the line of the common brands).

What you could do is take the suggestions we made, and make a list of the companies whose websites show a dealer near your location. Then visit them.

The other alternative to your approach is to take the two channel approach. Take the money and buy a receiver and two towers and then purchase the surrounds, sub and finally thecenter channel in that order once you've save up for these other speakers. That way you get to listen to music/movies through your towers of a higher quality speaker then you wopuld if you bought everything at once.

 

[lsiberian]

While many have speaker preferences. A good speaker is a good speaker. Few would complain about a set of Infinity Primuses(especially compared to Bose). SVS also has excellent sets and subwoofers that have a lot of power. While there are preferences the reality is most folks appreciate a quality speaker. SVS, Axiom, Ascend Acoustics, Infinity Primus, Behringer 2030p(prices went up) Aperion, and any brand advertising on this website will all be a huge step up from Bose in overall sound quality. If you want something very small and aesthetic then look at the KEF3000 series at accessories4less. They aren't gonna be as good as a full range speakers, but they are the real deal for satellite speakers. They are much better quality and much better looking than Bose IMO. Sometimes form is very important in a room and if it is here then the KEF3000 series is a good choice. If you don't mind some normal type speakers than look at the brands and see what you like. You probably will be amazed with almost any of them. Especially if you are coming from a HTIB and Bose background. For an audiophile there are major preferences, for the average joe they usually are just amazed at quality in general. Did we get the size of the room?

 

[seymoria]

The other alternative to your approach is to take the two channel approach. Take the money and buy a receiver and two towers and then purchase the surrounds, sub and finally thecenter channel in that order once you've save up for these other speakers. That way you get to listen to music/movies through your towers of a higher quality speaker then you wopuld if you bought everything at once.

This sounds like a great idea! Clicks nicely.

So the towers first.

What about Infinity Classia series? The Primus would be nice but since I am only going for towers now, I could maybe get the 'best ones' (consider $2000 budget). Do you think the Classia is worth the extra money? Would two be OK or should it be four towers?
(Also, please do suggest better brands if any).

For the next phase of my purchase :

- How many surrounds should be there (for really immersive effect)? Are 04 OK? Or more?
- Would 01 center be OK or 02 would be better?
- Would I really need a sub to complete the system? Am not much into booms and bass and subs are also pricey.

Best Regards.
Amer

 

[3db]

This sounds like a great idea! Clicks nicely.

So the towers first.

What about Infinity Classia series? The Primus would be nice but since I am only going for towers now, I could maybe get the 'best ones' (consider $2000 budget). Do you think the Classia is worth the extra money? Would two be OK or should it be four towers?
(Also, please do suggest better brands if any).

For the next phase of my purchase :

- How many surrounds should be there (for really immersive effect)? Are 04 OK? Or more?
- Would 01 center be OK or 02 would be better?
- Would I really need a sub to complete the system? Am not much into booms and bass and subs are also pricey.

Best Regards.
Amer

Personally, I wouldn't buy anything unheard unless its an internet company and provides free shipping and a full refund ( incase you didn't like it) The infinities are great speakers for the money but you can buy better ones now that your budget is just for towers.

You will need only 1 center channel, 2 surrounds if doing 5.1, 4 surrounds if doing 7.1 and one or tw0 subwoofers depending on the receiver's ability to support one or two subs.

 

[seymoria]

The infinities are great speakers for the money but you can buy better ones now that your budget is just for towers.

Please suggest some better towers. Would you recommend Aperion Intimus 6T over the Infinity C336? I tried to find towers from HSU Research (praised by most) but looks like they dont make any?

Thanks for advice.
Amer

 

[seymoria]

Did we get the size of the room?

Thankyou for the KEF recommendations. Their speakers are really very good looking and classy.

My current room size is 12 x 14. But may change my aprtment within the next 1 year.

Thank you.
Amer

 

[ErnieM]

I tried to find towers from HSU Research (praised by most) but looks like they dont make any?

You are correct. In fact, when I purchased my Hsu speakers (which, BTW, I really like) I contacted Hsu directly and asked if they were planning on offering towers. THey said not at this time.