An overall sound system under $700

B

Blues Doctor

Audioholic Intern
Really? We hadn't noticed. ;)


Listen, Doc. That should tell you something if you really only want to "cry once". If you are willing to consider ~$900 now, do you believe you'll never wonder and itch about "what if", if you get a $500 sub today? I don't.

You're already discussing w/ 2 knowledgeable sub guys. That's why you don't see a bunch of others chiming in. And my sub recommendations mean squat next to these guys. BUT I will urge you to carefully consider your "one time" purchase. If these guys tell you there is a big difference in the performance of a $500 vs $900 sub, do you think you'll really remain satisfied w/ the $500 one?

I say get the best you can reasonably get. Your pleasure will remain long after the financial sting is gone. (Of course, my wife is usually the one that defines "reasonably" for me.) Don't be stupid.
Lmao. You know how it is; the quest for the best w/in one's means. I'm new to this site. I know I've been getting solid advice from two knowledgeable guys. I'm not even OP on subject. Thanks for your thoughts and the laugh ("Really, we hadn't noticed!") It is painfully obvious. Subwoofers are new to me, and I appreciate this forum and Audioholics. I've already learned a lot. Old School 2.0 guy.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I wanted to call attention to this FR chart as an example of a deliberate attempt to decieve!
First off, I am skeptical of any chart from the manufacturer (other than DIY guys like Murphy, Bagby, etc).

The real problem is the way they compressed the vertical axis!
On first inspection, this looks like a nice flat response, especially for a $100 speaker system!
However, if you actually look at the numbers, you see a low of 79dB at 200Hz and highs of 93dB at 1.3kHz and 17kHz. So we have an FR of "60Hz to 20kHz +/- 7dB"
Also, at 700Hz, it drops 9dB then goes back up 7dB at 800Hz. Not what you want, and far worse than what we look for!
You might argue my statement that this was deliberate deception, since the numbers are provided; to which I would respond "In what world does it make sense to have a graph where the SPL goes down to -120dB?"
0dB essentially means no (sound) energy. It is "dead", the equivalent of total darkness. -1dB makes no more sense than -1 lumen (or negative wattage)!

In comparison, for the AA's, Dennis set the chart up for a range of 35dB on the vertical axis (as opposed to 240dB by Fluance). This means Murphy's chart has about 7 times the resolution of Fluance's chart!


I have not heard the Fluances, and they may be decent speakers, but if this chart is what their engineers and marketing department offer as putting them in the "best light", I would not be quick to recommend without first hearing them on a range of content.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I said a while ago in this thread, AA's + craigslist receiver + (budget increased by $400) - new HSU budget sub .
Everything else is noise and not nearly as good as this 2.1.
since then Blues "Doctor" highjacked the thread for unrelated search for sub, but point stays.

AF while trying to be "helpful", confuses OP by giving out too much suggestions, many of them simply incorrect like Flatulence speaker of cheap Mackie monitors. HK2700 is a decent enough AVR, but I bet OP could find on CL same (or better) functionality AVR for $100 or so.

Guys. Keep it simple and stop confusing newbies.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I wanted to call attention to this FR chart as an example of a deliberate attempt to decieve!
First off, I am skeptical of any chart from the manufacturer (other than DIY guys like Murphy, Bagby, etc).

The real problem is the way they compressed the vertical axis!
On first inspection, this looks like a nice flat response, especially for a $100 speaker system!
However, if you actually look at the numbers, you see a low of 79dB at 200Hz and highs of 93dB at 1.3kHz and 17kHz. So we have an FR of "60Hz to 20kHz +/- 7dB"
Also, at 700Hz, it drops 9dB then goes back up 7dB at 800Hz. Not what you want, and far worse than what we look for!
You might argue my statement that this was deliberate deception, since the numbers are provided; to which I would respond "In what world does it make sense to have a graph where the SPL goes down to -120dB?"
0dB essentially means no (sound) energy. It is "dead", the equivalent of total darkness. -1dB makes no more sense than -1 lumen (or negative wattage)!

In comparison, for the AA's, Dennis set the chart up for a range of 35dB on the vertical axis (as opposed to 240dB by Fluance). This means Murphy's chart has about 7 times the resolution of Fluance's chart!


I have not heard the Fluances, and they may be decent speakers, but if this chart is what their engineers and marketing department offer as putting them in the "best light", I would not be quick to recommend without first hearing them on a range of content.
+10000000

Two other manufacturer which internal measurements I support blindly are Ascend and HSU
 
afterlife2

afterlife2

Audioholic Warlord
I said a while ago in this thread, AA's + craigslist receiver + (budget increased by $400) - new HSU budget sub .
Everything else is noise and not nearly as good as this 2.1.
since then Blues "Doctor" highjacked the thread for unrelated search for sub, but point stays.

AF while trying to be "helpful", confuses OP by giving out too much suggestions, many of them simply incorrect like Flatulence speaker of cheap Mackie monitors. HK2700 is a decent enough AVR, but I bet OP could find on CL same (or better) functionality AVR for $100 or so.

Guys. Keep it simple and stop confusing newbies.
Darn for sopme reason I didn't notice he was not the OP. Blues Doc Open your own thread por favor. :) BSA thanks for pointing it out.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Doc,
I gather you are looking for a sub for music (not home theater)?
I make this distinction because in my personal experience, I like it when an explosion on HT gets my adrenaline pumping, but have found the setup that does this well is absolutely a horrible setup for music!
Where I use the same sub for both scenarios, I have bought and tuned my sub for music, but set it up for the sub to play ~8dB louder when watching a movie (I will bypass this setting if watching a movie where the music is important - Amadeus vs Avengers:)).
I would recommend that you avoid the SVS subs. SVS has (IMHO) decided as part of their marketing to be a sub that calls attention to itself. IOW, if you go to Best Buy and listen to their sub, you will no doubt be gratified by the depth and power of their subs; however, for music, it is not about being impressed by the sub (which is good for sales) - it is about the sub blending with your mains in such a way as to make the mains sound better, not like you have mains with subs. That said, I suspect their sealed Ultra 13 is not a bad sub for music!
Personally, I am not happy with the way subs are evaluated. We need a repeatable standard for evaluating them; however the "anechoic chamber" approach (usually approximated by measuring outdoors away from wall reflections) is not good. The problem is that as soon as the sub is placed in any normal residential room, you will get a substantial amount of room gain from the reflections and even more with corner loading. There is nothing inherently wrong with the "anechoic method", but rather it is the idea that you want a FR which is flat down to 20Hz in an anechoic chamber that is ill-conceived! This will not sound good listening to music in your room after you add in room gain (which is often more than 10dB). The bass will be bloated and detail will be lost.
Here is an example of anechoic vs in-room charts as measured by Ed Mullen:
"Anechoic" (ground plane) measurement:

In-room measurement:

As expected, room gain helped considerably to improve deep extension, with the Polk holding flat to about 25 Hz, and then dropping to -10 dB at 20 Hz.
For the complete read:
http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_2/polk-psw-505-subwoofer-4-2005.html

My statement would be that room gain added somewhere between 10 and 15dB to the output at 25Hz. Thus if you had an anechoically flat sub, you would have bloated bass in room.

Also, no one has yet mentioned the importance of sub placement and doing the "sub crawl". Because bass is so easily influenced by the room, you get standing waves in your room which can be nodes (exaggerated bass) or nulls (the bass gets cancelled). While it is still worth doing the sub crawl, I believe dual subs is the best way to reduce these effects.
As an example, I would call your attention to this article comparing a single 12" sub to dual 8" subs:
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-setup/two-subs

Below is a graph at the primary listening position with everything run direct (no EQ) as it would be from your Yamaha:

The green is dual 8" subs and the purple is a single 12" sub. The dual sub FR is much smoother and totally eliminates the nasty 10dB suck-out at ~48Hz!
Understand that we are more measuring the room acoustics of a single vs dual subs than the ability of the specific subs.

So, my advice to you is:
Option 1 - get a pair of SUB-1200 shipped for $300! These are actually pretty tight subs. I can say from personal experience that this ported sub is more tight and articulate than my sealed SVS SB12plus. You can sell this sub on Craigslist all day for $100 each, so not much to lose if you want to try them out or use them as a stepping stone/learning platform until you decide on your final solution. But it won't surprise me if you decide to keep them. They do a great job. They can be this inexpensive because they are keeping it simple and not attempting to be anechoically flat down to 20Hz.
Here is an "Anechoic" measurement of the SUB-1200 (red):


Option 2 - Dual RSL 10S's for $800. (note that the size difference between these and the SUB-1200 is not as much as you would guess) You seem enamored to the RSL Speedwoofer 10S. While I have not heard them, everything I have read about RSL indicates that they are well designed, and the FR looks like it would be good once room gain is added, and I think they are a reasonable option:
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/rsl-speakers-speedwoofer-10s-subwoofer-review#2qHTUUD4oT53FGuj.97




HSU
I believe the ULS-15 is a very good sub, but a pair of them is well beyond your budget and having dual subs is more beneficial than a better single sub (for music, anyway). Hsu is clever in that he offers tuning such that EQ1 provides flat response down to ~20Hz, which is a popular (and, in my mind ill-concieved) benchmark and EQ2 which fits my model for good in-room music sound!
EQ1:

EQ2:
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
According to SVS's "Merlin" tool, your Klipsch R-28F speakers suggest a subwoofer crossover of 40Hz.
So as a "quick guide" to set up dual subs for your system, I would do the following:
1) Buy an RCA Y-splitter:
https://www.amazon.com/MALE-FEMALE-CABLE-GOLD-TECHNOLOGY/dp/B001BZ45OU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1474396801&sr=8-3&keywords=RCA+Y-splitter
2) Buy this 12' component video cable to provide 12' sub cables (component video is obsolete so these clearance for peanuts, and sub cables are nothing more than a good quality RCA cable - which these are. Just pull the cables apart and you get 3):
http://www.parts-express.com/ar-ap092n-component-video-3-rca-to-3-rca-rgb-cable-12-ft-supports-720p-and-1080p-hd-signal--189-253
3) Set the crossover on the back of the subs to 40Hz and turn the volume down.
4) Plug the Y into your sub output on the back of your R-S700 and the cables to the subs.
5) Turn on your system including the subs so you have music (with deep bass content) coming as normal from your speakers (but he volume on the subs is down).
6) Go to each sub and turn up the volume until you begin to "notice" that sub. By notice, I mean that you are hearing sounds that are clearly coming from the sub. You don't want the subs to call attention to themselves when you are in normal listening positions, but I find when they call attention to themselves from ~2', that is a good starting point.
7) Now go to your listening position and evaluate and fine tune sub level. Generally, the volume should be about the same on both subs and they should be about the same distance from you as the speakers.

That will get you going. Since you have not had a subwoofer before, I will point out that it will sometimes reveal problems in recordings. For example, Eric Clapton - "Unplugged", you will now "get" to hear his foot tapping the stage - unfortunately, it is ponderous and overly loud on the recording. Clearly, the recording engineer used speakers that rolled off above the frequency of the stage floor being tapped!
Also, there are some modern songs with very deep bass which have been mixed with the idea that they will be heard over earbuds and bluetooth mini speakers. IOW, even though I have my system tuned to sound realistic with full range acoustic music, there are songs where the bass is bloated because of the production values of the musicians/studio/engineer. So, don't be too quick to believe your system is wrong until you have listened to more than one song.
 
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afterlife2

afterlife2

Audioholic Warlord
That's a cool tool never tried it before. Thanks KEW. My Klipsch RB25 are 80hz for my sub. I just have it at 120 I thought that was the standard. I'll try 80hz this weekend.
 
B

Blues Doctor

Audioholic Intern
I said a while ago in this thread, AA's + craigslist receiver + (budget increased by $400) - new HSU budget sub .
Everything else is noise and not nearly as good as this 2.1.
since then Blues "Doctor" highjacked the thread for unrelated search for sub, but point stays.

AF while trying to be "helpful", confuses OP by giving out too much suggestions, many of them simply incorrect like Flatulence speaker of cheap Mackie monitors. HK2700 is a decent enough AVR, but I bet OP could find on CL same (or better) functionality AVR for $100 or so.

Guys. Keep it simple and stop confusing newbies.
Excuse me if I broke some protocol. I was just involved in same situation as OP. Considering separates with more power or adding sub. So I joined in discussion and it just took off. I had no intent to "highjack" anything. My apologies.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I would recommend that you avoid the SVS subs. SVS has (IMHO) decided as part of their marketing to be a sub that calls attention to itself.
How do SVS subs call attention to themselves? They are very linear and low distortion. They can only be as good as the calibration. If you just dump one in the corner and call it a day, yeah it might not sound great- and the same is true for any other sub.

Personally, I am not happy with the way subs are evaluated. We need a repeatable standard for evaluating them; however the "anechoic chamber" approach (usually approximated by measuring outdoors away from wall reflections) is not good. The problem is that as soon as the sub is placed in any normal residential room, you will get a substantial amount of room gain from the reflections and even more with corner loading. There is nothing inherently wrong with the "anechoic method", but rather it is the idea that you want a FR which is flat down to 20Hz in an anechoic chamber that is ill-conceived! This will not sound good listening to music in your room after you add in room gain (which is often more than 10dB).
I disagree. One of the reasons why you want a sub to have a flat response is so it behaves predictably, regardless of the room it's in. It will be evenly stressed at a wide range of frequencies, so there is no need to worry about it being overdriven. However, a sub with a peakish or otherwise wonky response has to be placed very carefully, so that it doesn't accentuate the peak frequencies too much and it isn't being driven too hard at its weak points. The room gain in every room acts differently, so it shouldn't evenly be factored, unless you already know what your room is going to do with a flat response. The sub should have a natively flat response; the subsequent calibration and equalization should give the sub the desired response from the user, whatever the shape of that response may be.
 
B

Blues Doctor

Audioholic Intern
Excuse me if I broke some protocol. I was just involved in same situation as OP. Considering separates with more power or adding sub. So I joined in discussion and it just took off. I had no intent to "highjack" anything. My apologies.
Excuse me again. I got my threads mixed up. Sleep deprived. I am grateful for all the assistance and input. It's been beneficial. KEW, you offer sage advice sir, and I am grateful. I can tell you read my intentions clearly by your comments. Your well-thought posts have been enlightening and educational for me. Of course I would like the best sound I can get, but I'm looking for the best sound I can reasonably afford. I am not an audio engineer, but I do understand "marketing". I am searching for some of the knowledge to make informed decision within my means. You have have helped immensely. Many thanks!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The room gain in every room acts differently, so it shouldn't evenly be factored, unless you already know what your room is going to do with a flat response. The sub should have a natively flat response; the subsequent calibration and equalization should give the sub the desired response from the user, whatever the shape of that response may be.
This appears to be a point where Josh Ricci disagrees with you:
The ground plane measurements for the Powersound XS-15SE are quite good for an $800 sealed system. The basic frequency response shape with the low pass filter bypassed shows a response that is cleanly extended up to 200Hz and beyond, with a gently sloping low end that corners at 30Hz and appears to enter a sealed systems natural 12dB/octave roll off below that point. It should be a good match with the boost often seen in the low bass once placed in room.
While it is impossible to know what the exact room gain will be, it is reasonable to expect a significant increase in the low bass.
I want a sub that is natively flat in my room and I think it is a reasonable bet that HSU's EQ2 will be much closer than his EQ1 once it is placed in any typical room. The anechoic measurement makes sense for higher frequencies because the room effects are not so great, but if you target anechoically flat, you are gambling that there will be no increase from placing the sub in room. Those are some very long odds!

In Blues Doctor's case, there is no means for the "subsequent calibration and equalization" of the sub that you mention, unless he replaces or adds gear. He has a stereo receiver with the normal full range sub output. This makes it more important that he avoid a situation where room gain gives him a 10-15dB increase at the lower frequencies.
Of course the other important factor is that it costs serious money to make a sub that goes flat to 20Hz in an anechoic chamber. I don't think that is something I want to pay for if I can get flat in-room response without it (and I do)!
As further evidence, I would use Gene's in-room response using dual 8" subs which are essentially flat to 25Hz.
In the case of my Rythmik E15HP's I paid for the ability to be flat to 14Hz, but after placing in my large open living room, found the most realistic sound suggested that I adjust the sub to roll off at 40Hz and 10dB down at 20Hz (according to Rythmik's charts). That was a valuable education. I am fortunate that the Rythmiks have so much adjustability!
 
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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I agree that a sub with a flat response will normally have more deep bass in its room response in medium or small rooms, however systems that have room equalization software are pretty common nowadays, so those deep bass humps can be tamed without too much of a problem. I wouldn't want the sub manufacturers to make assumptions about what kind of room I am using; in fact I get little deep bass gain in my home theater room, and it is not that large of a room, we are talking 25'x14'x8'.

Another thing, it doesn't take a lot of money for a sub to get anechoically flat, its very easily done with DSP Processing, or if you have the experience and expertise of Dr. Hsu or Brian Ping, who do it with analogue amplifiers. The expensive part is have a sub that can cleanly play deep bass at high SPLs. Clean deep bass means serious xmax or a large enclosure, neither of which are cheap.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I agree that a sub with a flat response will normally have more deep bass in its room response in medium or small rooms, however systems that have room equalization software are pretty common nowadays, so those deep bass humps can be tamed without too much of a problem.
We'll have to disagree on this point. I use Audyssey and it was not able to tame the bass bloat. Admittedly, the room layout forced the subs towards the corners (14" away from back wall and 20" from the side wall), but Audyssey can only tame about 10 dB if I recall correctly. However, more on point, Blues Doctor is using a stereo receiver with no bass management. I have the same receiver and have setup a very nice sounding system using the SUB-1200. You may have a hard time stomaching this, but the SVS SB12Plus, JL Audio E112, and my Rythmik subs (when tuned to be anechoically flat) could not come close to the SUB-1200 for music reproduction in-room. I suspect these much more expensive subs outperformed the SUB-1200 on other metrics, but the overblown in-room bass was the dominant audible difference which led the SUB-1200 to sound better!

Another thing, it doesn't take a lot of money for a sub to get anechoically flat, its very easily done with DSP Processing, or if you have the experience and expertise of Dr. Hsu or Brian Ping, who do it with analogue amplifiers. The expensive part is have a sub that can cleanly play deep bass at high SPLs. Clean deep bass means serious xmax or a large enclosure, neither of which are cheap.
In the context of $400 or under subs, DSP is not that cheap; however, I was taking it for granted that if you made it flat to 20Hz, you would expect it to play at volume down to 20Hz. So, I can conceed that I did not word that as well as I could have.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Excuse me again. I got my threads mixed up. Sleep deprived. I am grateful for all the assistance and input. It's been beneficial. KEW, you offer sage advice sir, and I am grateful. I can tell you read my intentions clearly by your comments. Your well-thought posts have been enlightening and educational for me. Of course I would like the best sound I can get, but I'm looking for the best sound I can reasonably afford. I am not an audio engineer, but I do understand "marketing". I am searching for some of the knowledge to make informed decision within my means. You have have helped immensely. Many thanks!
Glad to help!
I fear that this thread is going off subject with ShadyJ and I debating different approaches.
Let me make some direct comments to you.
One of the reasons I responded to this thread is I own a R-S700 and Klipsch RF-82ii's (close relatives to yours). The other is, about 9 years ago, I was a 2 channel guy adding a sub. The benefits of adding the sub were enticing, but the bass was not as articulate and clear as I got from my speakers alone. The sub muddied the sound of bass and and there was clearly too much output at the lowest audible frequencies. From there I went to sealed 10" subs from Martin Logan and 8" sealed subs by Photon/Velodyne (not that different in sensibilities from the RSL Speedwoofer). Either of these put me in my happy place for listening to music. However, they really did not do it for HT, so I bought the 15" Rhythmiks, which have reputation for being accurate and articulate. More importantly, they offer an impressive degree of adjustability built in to their plate amp. This is when it became blatantly clear that a flat anechoic response was not my friend.
When I put together a music system for my girlfriend, I went with dual SUB-1200's, and have been a fan ever since. Using a comparably inexpensive 12" driver without overblown port tuning, the Sub-1200 gets response that is similar to the smaller Martin Logans or Photon/Velodyne to my ear, while being capable of higher output. The Photon/Velodyne is the more "impactful" of the three, but the SUB-1200 gives up nothing to the Martin Logans on this count. I find aside from the recordings of the instruments, the subwoofer adds an ambiance, or sense of space, to the presentation and the 12"-15" subs offer more of this over the 8"-10" subs.
My general take-away comparing the smaller subs to the SUB-1200 is that I was paying extra to get similar bass capability from a smaller box (which is often a reasonable decision).
Consequently, I feel pretty comfortable that you would be delighted with a pair of SUB-1200's. I also think you would be happy with the RSL's, because I expect them to be somewhat similar to the smaller subs I had, the frequency response shows them rolling off starting just below 40Hz and down 10dB at 25Hz, and RSL's reputation. The extra ambiance of the larger subs over the smaller is not a big deal - you will still realize it in the smaller, and without the larger to compare to, you won't look back. However, I am somewhat reluctant to recommend something I have never heard. Happily, RSL has a 30 day trial (they even pay return shipping) so nothing lost if you are not happy with them!
HTH!
 
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