Amp to Drive B&W highend speakers

[galindez]

<font color='#000000'>Well I am hooked with the wonderful sound of the B&amp;W DM603 S3 speakers. I compared them with comparably priced Paradigm studio 40s, KEF, Klispch, Infinity, Definitive Techs in mostly a side by side and was really pleased with the 603 s3. My Yamaha 1400 ( 2wks old) drove the 603 s3 no problem.

Here is my dilema.
The 603 s3 can be had new for $1000 ($900 can be wiggled out of most dealers). I can also buy used the B&amp;W CDM 7NT speakers for $1100-1200. (new would be $2K)

I have been told that my yam 1400 amp would not be able to properly drive the 7NTs and the limit of my amp would be the 603 s3. I was even told by the same vendor that the 604 s3 would be too much for my amp. This was based upon the amount of current and dampening that the yam has relative to other more expensive amps.

When I asked what type of integrated amps, they mentioned I would need around a $2K amp such as rotel, integra, or meridian.

Wow. Am I really limited this way? And if so, &nbsp;are there options that wont cost so much?

Any help would be appreciated
Thanks
Richard</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>B&amp;W speakers have never been dificult to drive, consider this, the old RXV-800 drives the real difficult Magnepans with ease so why would the newer RXV-1400 have any difficulty with your B&amp;W. Off all the HT receivers in the market, Yamaha has the best ability to drive difficult loads as the speakers they sell are also rated under 6ohms.

Seems like your dealer is out to make a quick buck from you, why not get the speaker and the RXV-1400 and test it out for yourself and if you need a real good amp, check out the Yamaha MX-1/MX-1000U which are class A monsters and would drive your B&amp;W easily, best of all they can be had for under $700 in fairly mint condition.</font>

 

[galindez]

<font color='#000000'>Mr Yamaha

Thanks for the feedback. Actually, here is the funny part, the vendor is actually not trying to make a quick buck since the 604 s3 are $400 more than the ones he is suggesting I go with.

I am just hoping that he is wrong. I do plan on listening to the speakers with the amp, but the real deal speakers are in a classified add used and I will not be able to listen to them till I purchase them. What I do know is that the B&amp;W 603 and 604s sound excellent.</font>

 

[PaulF]

<font color='#000000'>Richard,

I run a Yamaha/B&amp;W system. My receiver is the Yamaha 2095 5 x 100W. The speakers are CDM7 SEs front, CDM1 SEs surround and matching center.

I auditioned the speakers on the 2095 I was intending to purchase. I auditioned the 602s together with the CDM7s. They both sounded great and the amp did not seem to have any problem driving either.

As far as receivers go, the higher end Yamahas have traditionally had high damping factors (2095 = 200, 1400 = 140) and discrete amplifier output stages. Considerably better than many receivers in a similar price range.

Both the 7 SE and 7 NT have the same efficiency, 90dB SPL. They are both 2.5 way setups also. The DM 603 S3 is also a 2.5 way speaker with 90 db SPL sensitivity.

I don't see any reason why the 1400 would not drive any B&amp;W speaker easily.</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

galindez : <font color='#000000'>I have been told that my yam 1400 amp would not be able to properly drive the 7NTs and the limit of my amp would be the 603 s3.</font>

<font color='#000080'>Rubbish. Not sure why he said this, but still rubbish.</font>

 

[galindez]

<font color='#000000'>Hawk,

I reviewed  several consumer reviews at Audioreview on the B&amp;W CDM-7NT and many attested to needing the higher end amps to really make the speakers blossom.

This make me wonder if I should return the 1400 for a 540 and use the savings to apply towards a used amp for the mains.

Would you have any recommendations relating to good used amps that can be had for under 500. I would prefer a 5 channel amp but I would settle for the increased performance of the 2 channels for the same price. I would then use preouts from my receiver to drive the other speakers in surround mode.

Of course In stereo mode I would just be sitting pretty with a nice 2 channel amp.  

</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Galindez;

If my may throw my 2 cents in. &nbsp;You need a home theater processor anyways right? &nbsp;Why not keep the RXV-1400 and have it serve as your processor and multichannel amp. &nbsp;When your budget allows, add a quality 2 channel amp and use the remaining Yamaha amps to drive your other speakers. &nbsp;The RXV-1400 at $800 retail, is a steal just as a processor alone!

You will most likely benefit down the road with a separate &nbsp;amp for your front speakers and you can pick a used one up for a song at any of the online audio classified sections. &nbsp;However, I caution you not to buy a more powerful amp that is also noisier. &nbsp;More power is not always better and you have to be careful.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>If you are looking for clean power then check out for MX-1000/MX-1 from Yamaha on e-bay. They go for under $800 and considering the quality, they are a great bargain. Quite a few of the AH inmates have them and are really satisfied with tehm. They pump out clean class A 260wpc into 8ohms and can pump 1000W into 1ohms if neccesary so your B&amp;W wont be any sweat for them.</font>

 

[galindez]

<font color='#000000'>You are probably very right. After I wrote the post, I started thinking some more on a receiver that had preouts on lower yam models and then realizing some of the other features that I would be missing out on if I did downgrade(variable sub crossover, multi-room output, component video switching, .....)

As for a steal at %800 for the yam 1400, I actually only paid $639 (20% off) at Ultimate Electronics. There are multiple Ultimates in the Salt Lake City, Utah area and it is fairly easy to talk one of them into some great discounts.

Thanks for helping me think this through.
So now that I am going to keep the yam1400, what would be some great used amps for upgrade under $500 to start searching for within the next few months.

Rotel RB1080 had a pretty bad review Stereophile 3/2002
Rotel RB991 good reviews but more pwr than what I need
Carver - cannot touch anywhere under $500
other models/brand?

?</font>

 

[PaulF]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I reviewed &nbsp;several consumer reviews at Audioreview on the B&amp;W CDM-7NT and many attested to needing the higher end amps to really make the speakers blossom.</td></tr></table>

&quot;Blossom&quot; what does that mean exactly? I don't know what the people at Audioreview mean. The 1400 is a 110W per channel amp. The three speakers I have mentioned use identical midrange and tweeter drivers, use the same crossover frequencies and are all ported designs.

I can assure you that the 1400 will not have any problem driving the B&amp;W speakers.

Also bear in mind that a 5 or 7 channel amp when used with the effects off in pure 2 channel mode has lots of headroom in the power supply to drive the 2 channels only. You may find that the 1400 performs better in 2 channel mode than a dedicated stereo amp.</font>

 

[galindez]

<font color='#000000'>Frankly Paul I am new at this and really do not know myself. Somehow I do not think it is tied to the power though.

After all what makes a two channel amp like at Rotel RB-1070 @ 130 watts/ch retail for $700 or a Krell KSA 100S @ 100watt/ch ( $5500 new in 1994 and still retails used for $2000) cost equal or more than my yamaha 1400 with all its features besides just amplification.</font>

 

[PaulF]

<font color='#000000'>Ricahrd,

I agree, and you could drive yourself crazy with all the options. That's why I honed in the the ability of the Yamaha receiver to drive your B&amp;W speaker option.

There have been a great many discussions about the relative performance and value of receivers vs separates in this forum. If you do a search you will probably find some entertaining reading.

Let me preface this by saying I think Krell makes good equipment, but it's way overpriced for what you get. If they sold it by the pound they could probably justify their prices, but on performance alone, no.

In your case, you were told that the 1400 could not drive the 7NTs. That's absolutely untrue. There are four main factors to consider here, RMS power, dynamic power, speaker efficiency and speaker impedance (more on this last one later).

A receiver with 110W per channel is more than sufficient for most home entertainment setups. All the speakers have a nominal impedance of 8 ohms and are rated with the same sensitivity (efficiency). At 4 Ohms they would be harder to drive, it would take about twice the power.

The more complicated part is how an amplifier handles transients (rapid peaks in the audio signal) and dynamic loads (changes in the speaker impedance vs frequency due to driver and crossover characteristics). If an amplifer has a beefy enough power supply, with enough current to supply the output, the above two issues should not be a problem. Similarly the output stage must be able to deliver the available power (low impedance, i.e high damping, high slew factor etc. we won't go there).

The final aspect is the dynamic impedance of the speakers in question and to what degree they will provide a difficult load for the amplifier. Here's the funny part. According to B&amp;W's own web site, the 603 S3s ( or 604 S3s) dip down to 3 Ohms while the 7NTs dip down to only 4.6 Ohms minimum. Thus this should make the 7NTs a more consistent and easier speaker to drive.

I wonder what the vendor would have to say about that?</font>

 

[Khellandros66]

<font color='#000000'>galindez,

I have the 1300 believe me the 1400 will plenty powerful.

I drive a pair Definitive ProMonitor 200s which are 91dB Sens, and handle 20w - 200w of power. &nbsp;Once i switched the 1300 into 4 ohms, my speakers couldn't cut it at any more than a 1/3 of the volume. Also my friend uses StudioMonitor 350s which (according to manual) handle 20w - 200w 90dBs Sens.

Go with the 7NT's if in good condition.

~Bob</font>

 

[littleb]

<font color='#000000'>I believe wholeheartedly that there is a problem with Yamaha amps and B&amp;W speakers. &nbsp;I too visited the brick and mortar stores and decided that the B&amp;W line was my best option. &nbsp;After many months of contemplation, I brought home a pair of B&amp;W 602s3 bookshelf speakers to be used with my htr-5280 Yamaha receiver. &nbsp;Man, what &nbsp;a disappointment. &nbsp;It appeared that this receiver rated at 100 watts/channel just could not push these speakers at all. &nbsp;I had to turn &nbsp;the volume way up just to listen to these speakers at a modest level. &nbsp;I would not purchase this brand again unless I had some very substantial power supplies pushing them, as they do in most brick and mortar shops. &nbsp;I ended up returning them and replacing them with a pair of Axiom m22ti's, which match very well with the Yamaha.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I have a good ol' Yamaha RX-V496 with 70W/channel which drives my Dynaudio Special 25s (88dB efficiency or sensitivity) with no problem except for the worst engineered recordings.

So if you are looking for not good, but GREAT, speakers to go with Yamaha, I'd highly recommend Dyaudio, especially the Contour series.  Simply the best in the world!


Abe</font>

 

[PaulF]

<font color='#000000'>Littleb,

I don't doubt what you experienced but I would not take that and extrapolate that to every Yamaha/B&amp;W scenario. I run a Yamaha 5 x 100W receiver into 5.1 channels of B&amp;W speakers. I don't have any problem whatsoever getting huge volumes out of the speakers.

I would tend to think there was liklely something else wrong with your setup.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Abe;

We are getting Audience 52SE speakers from Dynaudio this week! &nbsp;Looking forward to reviewing them. &nbsp;Their speakers seem worthy of heafty amplification &nbsp;

</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>That's great, Gene!   looking forward to seeing your review.

the Dynaudio Audience 52's are fairly inefficient, only 86dB.  Don't have first hand experience with them but should be fine with Yamaha receivers.  I had PSB Stratus Mini's, which are also 86dB sensitivity, driven by RX-V496 (70W) with little problem.   But more power will definately help in this case.


Abe</font>