Amp pairing for Sierra 2 bookshelves and Vtf-1 Mk2

[Jemidy70]

I've been running this pair for a while off of my Bifrost Uber and Yamaha R-S500. I've caught the upgrade bug as it seems that my amp is pretty lo-fi compared to the rest of my setup and I would like to get the most out of my RAAL tweeters. I have seen some pretty good deals on a few amps: Rega Brio-R, an Outlaw rr2125, a Rega Mira 3, and a NAD C352. My budget is $500-600 shipped and I am unable to audition amps. I have no issues routing my speakers through my subwoofer so not having a subwoofer output will not be a big deal. I appreciate any help I can get and thank you for your responses!

Jemidy70

 

[Swerd]

Your Sierra-2 speakers, which are very good speakers , are said to handle 45 wpc at a minimum and up to 200 wpc maximum. They have an impedance of 6 ohms. Your Yamaha R-S500 is rated at 75 wpc at 8 ohms. I'm not sure what you mean by "pretty lo-fi". Do you mean underpowered?

By the way, power output has little to do with tweeter performance, so I don't understand you when you say "get the most of my RAAL tweeters". These speakers will reveal poor quality or noisy recordings as poor sounding. However, better quality recordings can address that problem, not a different amplifier.

If power is your goal, three of the integrated amps on your list are in the same power range as your Yamaha, or lower:

Rega Brio R is 50 wpc (8 ohms) and 73 wpc (4 ohms).
Rega Mira 3 is 61 wpc (8 ohms) and 91 wpc (4 ohms).
NAD C352 is 80 wpc 8 ohms.

Outlaw RR2150 is 100 wpc (8 ohms) and 160 wpc (4 ohms). Clearly the Outlaw is more powerful than the others. I've heard that amp in operation, and I would say its claimed power rating is, if anything, an underestimation. I'd go with the Outlaw.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Dear Jemidy, I honestly don't think you could improve your SQ by changing already excellent yammi s-500. It's not "Lo-fi"

You probably going to gain more with less investment into room treatments - rug, acoustic panels etc, bass traps ...

 

[shadyJ]

Dear Jemidy, I honestly don't think you could improve your SQ by changing already excellent yammi s-500. It's not "Lo-fi"

You probably going to gain more with less investment into room treatments - rug, acoustic panels etc, bass traps ...

+1 this. There are better ways to improve the sound with your money. I would first start by taking a measurement of the sound with a mic or SPL meter at the listening position. If there is any problems in the response, correct those. It will make a much greater difference.

 

[rojo]

Agree. The equipment you have is already excellent. Room treatments might help. Repositioning the speakers might help. It's hard to know without taking measurements.

A miniDSP + UMIK-1 combo would let you measure room response at your listening position, then EQ out anomalous humps. Beware that figuring out how to perform the measurements and effectively apply EQ can take a lot of reading, time, trial, and error. On the other hand, it can also be an enjoyable adventure if you like tweaking. For upgrade-itis when you've already got such excellent stuff, it could be just what the doctor ordered. And if it doesn't work out, you can probably resell the miniDSP and mic for very little loss.

 

[Jemidy70]

While I like the idea of tweaking my setup don't you think that the Sierra 2's deserve a better amp than the R-S500? I honestly bought it on a whim and have been relatively unimpressed with it ever since. I might grab the mini dsp and umik1 just for upgrading sake but that doesn't quite clear up the question of what amp would better my setup as the Yamaha truly seems the weakest link. Someone on audiogon suggested a SYS passive preamp and a power amp what do you think?

 

[Jemidy70]

Also I should probably mention that this is a relatively near field desktop setup so I don't believe any more acoustic treatments than the rug I have would help all that much. That's just my thought though I've honestly never played around with room treatments.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

as the Yamaha truly seems the weakest link.

I have problem with word "seems"

A visual example for OP:

Also if this makes you FEEL better you could buy new amp, Outlaw probably will give most difference in SOME cases.
But honestly you should not do what SEEMS best to you and do the right thing - get measurements and room treatment.
There is a small possibility of your yammi has a defect, but if it's not easily noticeable - it's quite unlikely.

 

[Jemidy70]

Considering all of your high status in this forum I must take your advice pretty seriously. So, the question is; is the R-S500 really that good? I just know that the better cross talk and lower THD of a new amp would be better from a specs standpoint, as well as many people saying the Brio R pairs well with sierra's. I can't say that I can audition a Brio R but I have heard that it's excellent for the pricepoint and punches a bit higher than 50 watts.

 

[rojo]

Near field, huh? You know, the Sierra 2's are 87dB @ 1w @ 1m. That's 105dB at 64W. That's somewhere between a subway train and a jackhammer. Do you usually listen that loud? I don't think there's anything to be gained by getting another amp.

Are you using a Windows PC as the source? If so, you could forego the miniDSP and use the freeware EqualizerAPO. You can apply the EQ computed by Room EQ Wizard into EqualizerAPO the same as to a miniDSP (only a miniDSP would apply your EQ to more sources). You'd still need a measurement mic though. If you wanted to be really cheap about it, you could get a Dayton iMM-6, a 3.5mm TRRS extension cable, a smartphone headset to PC adapter, and a short 3.5mm male-male cable to use as a loopback to calibrate your sound card's response.

If the Sierra 2's are sitting directly on your desk, it might help to elevate them or put mouse pads in front of them or something to avoid the boundary gain and reflection off the desk's surface. Desktop speaker stands might be a worthwhile investment.

 

[Jemidy70]

Also as I said before I'm not opposed to getting a DSP and doing measurements but purely from an upgrade standpoint would I gain an increase in SQ? Also what do you think about the SYS passive and poweramp idea?

 

[Jemidy70]

In response to Rojo, I am isolating them with yoga blocks at the moment.

 

[Jemidy70]

I must also say that they sound pretty quiet at the 50% mark on my amp at the moment. My spl meter app is reading 90db but they really don't sound that loud to me. I don't know if I've already fried my ears from years of headphones and earbuds or if maybe it's off but they sound pretty quiet and I usually have them turned up 65% or -35db on the receiver.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Considering all of your high status in this forum I must take your advice pretty seriously. So, the question is; is the R-S500 really that good? I just know that the better cross talk and lower THD of a new amp would be better from a specs standpoint, as well as many people saying the Brio R pairs well with sierra's. I can't say that I can audition a Brio R but I have heard that it's excellent for the pricepoint and punches a bit higher than 50 watts.

did you noticed the linked I posted this post:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/amp-pairing-for-sierra-2-bookshelves-and-vtf-1-mk2.95360/#post-1089702
I had very detailed review for A-S500 which is nearly identical unit, sans radio.
It measured extremely well in both THD and crosstalk.
Anything over -100db SNR is only dogs could hear

btw: it's 75 HONEST Wpc, not 50wpc

 

[Swerd]

While I like the idea of tweaking my setup don't you think that the Sierra 2's deserve a better amp than the R-S500? I honestly bought it on a whim and have been relatively unimpressed with it ever since. I might grab the mini dsp and umik1 just for upgrading sake but that doesn't quite clear up the question of what amp would better my setup as the Yamaha truly seems the weakest link. Someone on audiogon suggested a SYS passive preamp and a power amp what do you think?

We are questioning the idea that a different amplifier will make your speakers sound different. Other than saying the Yamaha seems the weakest link, you haven't said what is lacking in your system's sound.

Can you describe what is wrong or lacking in the sound you hear?

Also I should probably mention that this is a relatively near field desktop setup so I don't believe any more acoustic treatments than the rug I have would help all that much. That's just my thought though I've honestly never played around with room treatments.

The Sierra-2s are, more than likely, not designed to be listened to while sitting near them, as in a desktop set up. How close are you sitting to them? What is the size of the room? And, how close are these speakers to the wall behind them?

When a crossover is designed for any speaker, the designer must make some assumptions about the distance between the speakers and the listener. This matters most in the frequency range where the woofer and tweeter are both working, within an octave of the crossover frequency. For a speaker like the Sierra-2, I don't know what the designer had in mind, but I would guess it was more like 7 to 12 feet, not 2 to 4 feet. Sitting too close can create an unintended "hole in the mid range sound". And the sound can vary by a lot as you move in your chair, even if only a few inches. Moving several feet further away from them can eliminate that type of variation.

Although a 75 wpc amp may be on the lower end of the 45 to 200 wpc range suggested by the manufacturer, I find it hard to imagine that they would seem underpowered while sitting so close to them.

 

[Swerd]

I must also say that they sound pretty quiet at the 50% mark on my amp at the moment. My spl meter app is reading 90db but they really don't sound that loud to me. I don't know if I've already fried my ears from years of headphones and earbuds or if maybe it's off but they sound pretty quiet and I usually have them turned up 65% or -35db on the receiver.

What speakers did you previously have?

 

[Jemidy70]

These are the only speakers I've paired with my yammi though I did have them as NRT's beforehand.

 

[Jemidy70]

Also i would say that the sound is lacking in clarity and the soundstage imaging leaves a bit to be desired. I doubt that it's the speakers themselves as they employ the highly regard RAAL ribon tweeter and SEAS woofer and my Dac is comparable to a Rega Dac with its upgrade so that leads me to believe it must be the amplifier that's causing the trouble.

 

[Jemidy70]

Also are you sure that the R-S500 is the same as the A-S500 because they is quite a tidy price differential there I can't imagine adding in a receiver unit would drop the price like that. Am i wrong in assuming they might have cheaped out on the innards of the R-S500 as opposed to the other?

 

[Jemidy70]

I would also like to take the time to thank you all for putting up with my confusion and let you know that all of your opinions are going to be taken into account when I pull out the debit card.