Am I missing something?! Muddy sound?

[smlee5]

Hey guys,
I was wondering if anyone had advice for an audio beginner who's having problems getting the right sound from his speakers? I'm currently working with a Marantz SR5001 and four Polk R150's (2 for the front and 2 for surround) and the sound coming from the speakers seem to be somewhat muddy and not as crisp as I'd like it. When I listen to music, the voices in particular seems slightly muffled and the sound fidelity seems downright poor (comparatively speaking). I'm really having a problem with the clarity of the sound im hearing... I know my setup is still quite budget, but I'm comparing the sound coming from the R150's with an extremely old and cheap Harman Kardon pc speaker setup I had and it simply seems like the sound got WORSE after upgrading my equipment. I've considered a few possible sources for the poor sound such as:

1) the fact that I'm using a laptop pc with a shitty sound card for the audio source
2) I'm using cheap monoprice speaker cables
3) I read somewhere that R150's take a while to break in

Does anyone have any suggestions as to why my sound is so damn weak? I feel disappointed at the fact that I just threw down around $500 and the sound isn't even that much better than the $50 pc speakers that I had before. Is there anything I could possibly be missing or am I expecting too much from my budget setup?

Thanks for the advice,
Disappointed & Confused

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey guys,
I was wondering if anyone had advice for an audio beginner who's having problems getting the right sound from his speakers? I'm currently working with a Marantz SR5001 and four Polk R150's (2 for the front and 2 for surround) and the sound coming from the speakers seem to be somewhat muddy and not as crisp as I'd like it. When I listen to music, the voices in particular seems slightly muffled and the sound fidelity seems downright poor (comparatively speaking). I'm really having a problem with the clarity of the sound im hearing... I know my setup is still quite budget, but I'm comparing the sound coming from the R150's with an extremely old and cheap Harman Kardon pc speaker setup I had and it simply seems like the sound got WORSE after upgrading my equipment. I've considered a few possible sources for the poor sound such as:

1) the fact that I'm using a laptop pc with a shitty sound card for the audio source
2) I'm using cheap monoprice speaker cables
3) I read somewhere that R150's take a while to break in

Does anyone have any suggestions as to why my sound is so damn weak? I feel disappointed at the fact that I just threw down around $500 and the sound isn't even that much better than the $50 pc speakers that I had before. Is there anything I could possibly be missing or am I expecting too much from my budget setup?

Thanks for the advice,
Disappointed & Confused

It's number 1

You have to go to a lot of trouble and expense to get high Fidelity from a computer. Why don't you get another music source? The other problem is that most computer based sources use lossy compression formats, like mp3. I don't care what people say, it sounds terrible.

 

[cfrizz]

I think that this is most likely your main problem, as well as the speakers needing some break in time.

1) the fact that I'm using a laptop pc with a shitty sound card for the audio source

You have put together a very good budget system, but you really need to find a better source to get your music from.

You also have to get used to the difference in sound going from pc speakers to a real setup. It probably doesn't take much to get pc speakers to sound halfway decent, but real speakers are a whole different ballgame.

Get yourself a cd player & cd's & see how that sounds.

 

[gus6464]

Buy this USB DAC and rerip all your music into high bitrate mp3 (320kbps), lossless (flac, apple lossless), or uncompressed (wav, aiff).

Fubar2
http://www.audiophileproducts.com/fubar2

This is a very inexpensive DAC and performs great. Here is the review.

http://www.affordableaudio.org/Fubar2USBDAC.pdf

 

[Seth=L]

Try different speaker placement. Your speakers don't need break in time, your ears do.

 

[cwall99]

what are you listening to?

I agree that MP3s are a crappy source of audio. Heck, if you've seen that recent article in rolling stone about dynamic range compression, even CDs aren't all that good of a musical source.

Yes, dynamic range compression is not the same as the compression done on MP3s, but the point is that there's a huge quality difference among CDs, too.

In the most recent AV Rant they talked about using a piece of freeware called Audacity to look at the dynamic range in a recording (whether it's an MP3 or a CD), and you can see huge differences. I have a copy of a demo disk put together by B&W, and you can see a distinct difference between the dynamic range on the tracks on that disk when compared to other more mainstream fare.

So MP3 suck. No surprise there. I also wondered if he might also be listening to the audio track on a DVD, set up for 5.1 without a center channel. Whoops. No vocals at all, just about, but the other channels shouldn't sound bad, maybe a little thin in that so much of the critical audio comes through the center channel... but that;s jsut me messing about.

 

[smlee5]

Thanks for the insight guys...I've given it some thought and I do believe that my sound card may be a big reason I'm not getting the sound I want, so I do think I will invest in a good external sound card with digital processing.

I've been listening to the speakers for the past few hours and have been able to isolate exactly what problem I'm having with the sound. When I listen to some songs that have complex notes and multiple layers, it seems hard to distinguish between them and they seem to muddle together, reducing the perceived clarity and "resolution" if you will of the music. This problem seems to be almost non-existent when I listen to very simple songs with only a few layers. Secondly, some voices seem to have a lack of depth and character and power as well when the song commands it. Women's vocals seem particularly flat while male voices sound half decent.

On the matter of mp3 sound quality, most of my collection is in 312 kbps mp3 or FLAC so I don't know if its a problem with the quality of the files per se.

Do you guys think I should invest in a good center speaker? What exactly is the center speaker supposed to be responsible for?
Maybe its time to turn a $500 budget into an $800?

haha..man i should have never joined this site...

 

[boboi]

Thanks for the insight guys...I've given it some thought and I do believe that my sound card may be a big reason I'm not getting the sound I want, so I do think I will invest in a good external sound card with digital processing.

On the matter of mp3 sound quality, most of my collection is in 312 kbps mp3 or FLAC so I don't know if its a problem with the quality of the files per se.

And lastly, do you guys think I should invest in a good center speaker? What exactly is the center speaker supposed to be responsible for? In retrospect I do believe buying a center speaker rather than the two extra surrounds would have been better...but eh...should of thought of that of that before.
Maybe its time to turn a $500 budget into an $800?

haha..man i should have never come to this site...

If you're strictly into music listening, perhaps a center channel will not be needed; unless of course you get into music formats that require a multi-channel set up, such as DVD-A and SACD. From a personal point of view, and a stereophile's standpoint, most music recorded on cd's, or in your case, MP3's, are intended for basic stereo playback on 2 channels. However, if it suits your fancy, you can buy a center channel and play your music in Dolby Pro-Logic; a codec that expands a stereo source into surround sound. Happy listening!

 

[rnatalli]

Did you compare the Polks to other speakers before buying them? It sounds like you simply don't like the sound Polks are giving off.

 

[bandphan]

grab yourself some good recordings,

http://www.chesky.com/core/productlist.cfm?productcategoryid=1

and a cd player a check them out. I know that when im listening to the music channels on my cable system, the sound is really lacking compaired to well mastered cds. Sheffield labs made some fantastic direct to disc albums that would make you cry, even on lower end speakers they sounded good.

http://dahlquistspeakers.com/Sheffield Recordings.htm

consider the source first in your situation, as for that can easily checked.
Most local library branches carry cds,some of which are well mastered, if you dont want to shell out some duckets.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I've worked with the floor stander version of this speaker, and the crossover is not optimized for the bottom mounting position of the tweeter. Are you listening to these on the woofer axis or the tweeter axis? Have you tried turning them upside down? They really need a new crossover (which I've designed), but the situation is a little better on the tweeter axis. Still--the general sound is still muffled in the upper midrange. I can send you measurements if you're interested.

 

[amnesiac]

I've worked with the floor stander version of this speaker, and the crossover is not optimized for the bottom mounting position of the tweeter. Are you listening to these on the woofer axis or the tweeter axis? Have you tried turning them upside down? They really need a new crossover (which I've designed), but the situation is a little better on the tweeter axis. Still--the general sound is still muffled in the upper midrange. I can send you measurements if you're interested.

I'm very interested in your new crossover design as i have some r150s that i've been slowly becoming dissatisfied with.

I personally think it's a combination of the above, but also the speaker itself. its a budget speaker, it can be had for 60 shipped per pair. This being said, its great for the price, more balanced imo than the best buy insignias.

The weakness is in the tweeter, perhaps its the crossover as well, but overall the sound is lacking in the upper registers for my taste. Also, the cabinet is made of 1/2? (less than 3/4" for sure) MDF and there is terrible cabinet resonance in the mid bass around 300hz i believe, though i haven't really looked into it. And the damping inside is miserable, just one sheet of polyfill-ish material. Also, the port in the back should be sufficiently placed away from walls.

When i get the chance, i'm going to head over to Lowe's and get some peel n seel rubberized asphalt to basically mass load the inside of the speaker and then apply some decent polyfill which should help to reduce cabinet resonance that really colors and muddies the sound especially in heavy string sections of classical music where i find it most noticeable. this is a trick that's been done on the insignia speakers as well as the infinity primus and i found it to be quite helpful with the insignias in tightening up the sound and cleaning up the muddiness.

My music history class has a nice system in every classroom and ive been listening to the pieces and comparing them on the PSB bookshelves running out of a parasound amp (not sure of the models) and the lack of that mid bass resonance is huge for clearing up the sound. oh and the speakers cost several times more than the r150s, not to mention the amp, or the fact that the power conditioner probably cost more than my entire set up.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I had the R300's, not the 150's, so I can't guarantee anything. They look identical except for the cabinet height. I actually preferred the stock Insignia above 80 hz. It was a closer call when I compared my modified Insignia with the modified R300. I also didn't find the midbass objectionable, although I did end up lining the cabinets with PE's version of Black Hole 5 just to make sure. Please PM me if you want to see the new crossover circuit. Hopefully I saved some of those measurements.....

 

[Soundman]

Hey guys,
I was wondering if anyone had advice for an audio beginner who's having problems getting the right sound from his speakers? I'm currently working with a Marantz SR5001 and four Polk R150's (2 for the front and 2 for surround) and the sound coming from the speakers seem to be somewhat muddy and not as crisp as I'd like it. When I listen to music, the voices in particular seems slightly muffled and the sound fidelity seems downright poor (comparatively speaking). I'm really having a problem with the clarity of the sound im hearing... I know my setup is still quite budget, but I'm comparing the sound coming from the R150's with an extremely old and cheap Harman Kardon pc speaker setup I had and it simply seems like the sound got WORSE after upgrading my equipment. I've considered a few possible sources for the poor sound such as:

1) the fact that I'm using a laptop pc with a shitty sound card for the audio source
2) I'm using cheap monoprice speaker cables
3) I read somewhere that R150's take a while to break in

Does anyone have any suggestions as to why my sound is so damn weak? I feel disappointed at the fact that I just threw down around $500 and the sound isn't even that much better than the $50 pc speakers that I had before. Is there anything I could possibly be missing or am I expecting too much from my budget setup?

Thanks for the advice,
Disappointed & Confused

I have to agree with the others. It may be your soundcard and possibly the design of those Polks. Or as also menioned, maybe you just don't care for the Polk sound.
Let me also comment on your #2 possible reason- your speaker wire. I can guarantee you this is not the problem as long as you have a good solid conection. Don't be fooled by the cheap prices at Monoprice. Their prices are cheap, but they make good quality products. Please don't buy into the whole speaker wire game that some of these companies will try to sell you on. Copper is copper so as long as you have the propper guage wire and a good solid connection. that Monoprice cable should be just as good as a more expensive one. I'm using Monoprice cables in my system as well. Just thought I'd mention that since you listed it as a possible reason.

 

[gus6464]

Get yourself a USB DAC and rerip all your music into lossless or uncompressed wav and you will hear a difference right away.

 

[Soundman]

grab yourself some good recordings,

http://www.chesky.com/core/productlist.cfm?productcategoryid=1

and a cd player a check them out. I know that when im listening to the music channels on my cable system, the sound is really lacking compaired to well mastered cds. Sheffield labs made some fantastic direct to disc albums that would make you cry, even on lower end speakers they sounded good.

http://dahlquistspeakers.com/Sheffield Recordings.htm

consider the source first in your situation, as for that can easily checked.
Most local library branches carry cds,some of which are well mastered, if you dont want to shell out some duckets.

Good information! My Rocket's recently came in and I'm in the process of doing some listening and have noticed big differences in the SQ depending on the source. I may need to get a better CD collection.

 

[smlee5]

damn...my ears are having an eargasm..

I just paired my computer up with the Creative Audigy 2 nx and the difference is ENORMOUS. My system was definitely being severely limited by my old laptop sound card. Literally night and day difference.

The layers are now very easily distinguishable and the voices sound crystal clear. The highs seem quite crisp and everything seems to be "on point".

Oh man, my first audio high

 

[cfrizz]

LOL! Congratulations. I'm glad it was an easy fix for you. Enjoy your setup.

 

[TLS Guy]

damn...my ears are having an eargasm..

I just paired my computer up with the Creative Audigy 2 nx and the difference is ENORMOUS. My system was definitely being severely limited by my old laptop sound card. Literally night and day difference.

The layers are now very easily distinguishable and the voices sound crystal clear. The highs seem quite crisp and everything seems to be "on point".

Oh man, my first audio high

Glad to hear of your success. I guess the chump got another one right. However usually it is speakers, however I felt your problem was likely the source.