Aluminum or Silk Dome Tweeters?

jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
This is a question purely about theory. I'm not going out to buy speakers next week based on what's said here. That aside...


Which driver design is better?

Most designs I've seen while browsing the ol' internet (including, Axiom, Wilson, among many others) use an aluminum or titanium dome tweeter. However, ultra-high-end manufacturer California Audio Technology uses textile dome tweeters. It makes me wonder who is more 'right'. Obviously, it's hard to make a solid answer either way, but indeed, there must be someone with more proof to back up their driver choices.

I personally believe that metal dome drivers are best. I say this with loads of ignorance. The only real evidence I have to back up this idea is analysis of tweeters done by Mackie. I believe that Mackie is a good, down to earth earth company that uses sound engineering principles (and maybe too much dry humor). I'd really like to learn more about loudspeaker and driver design in this respect. Admittedly, I think I've found a new obsession. Proof: In two sittings today (broken up only by class and meals, damn you college, damn you stomach), I read John Dunlavy's postings in their entirety. And unlike readings for philosophy class, I was actually interested the whole time.

w00t for audio.

And please, let's get some meaningful discussion going on here.
 
Az B

Az B

Audioholic
Horns.

:D

Really, it's a personal choice. Many people think the textile tweets are smoother than the metallic, but I think the metallic tweets are little more accurate.

But again, listen to both and buy what floats your rowboat.
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
This sounds like a good question for Audioholics staffer JLHart. Hope he chimes in. But I'll put in my $0.02 anyway.

I've gotten the impression (possibly wrong) that metal tweets are somewhat more prone to resonances or 'ringing'. But as with so many other things I suspect that diaphragm material is only a small part of the equation and that good drivers can be made either way.

So: if I were a speaker designer I woudn't choose a tweet on its diaphragm material alone.

FWIW, my DIYs use fabric dome Vifas. But I didn't spec them - the designer did.
 
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
My Yamaha NS-300 uses silk dome and sound way sweeter than the newer Yamahas with aluminum dome tweeters, however for neutrality, nothing beats the beryllium domes on my ancient 15 year old NS-1000x.

The newer speakers are being designed with HT in mind and therefore ultra high DVD-A/SACD ready frequency compliance is a must so silk dome is finding its way out on most tweeters now a days. Musicaly the silk dome is much easier on ears and therefore sweeter for extended listening sessions.
 
goodman

goodman

Full Audioholic
The Anthony Gallo Reference3 uses something called "Kynar" in a cylindrically shaped diaphragm. What it is, I dunno, but it's supposed to be a great tweeter.
 

plhart

Audioholic
Okay, my take on soft domes vs. metal domes; I've designed systems with both>

Soft domes came first. I first used them in the mid seventies in an attempt to find a substitute for the ubiquitous 2" phenolic-ring paper-cone tweeter. The phenolic ring was a great tweeter in that it cost about half that of the soft domes at the time (<$2.00 vs. about $4) for the same sensitivity.

The soft domes where harder to make light enough to get enough sensitivity out of them and you needed a really good Japanese or European silk dome with precisely sprayed, very light doping to give consistant results and frequency response out past 20KHz.

There were of course the Dynaudio's, Seas and Vifa's with fabulously flat frequency responses and free air resonances (FARs) below 1000Hz. But most commercially viable soft domes had FARS from 1400Hz to 1800Hz so you had to watch how far down you brought the little guy and you needed to use a second order filter at the minimum.

Listening-wise, I always loved the soft domes. By virtue of their cloth-with- sprayed-dope-domes they were inherently self damping and could therefore be forgiving or complementry to electronics which had a touch of transient crispness in the lower treble region. Truth be known, soft domes as seen by high speed photography can be seen to deform as they launch soundwaves so you might want to condemn them as romanticisizing the music. I wouldn't.

Well, what can you say? Mate a really well designed and excuted soft dome with decent electronics which are on the crisp yet accurate side, like a Yamaha Piano versus a Steinway, and what do you have. Music! Sweet, relaxing, accurate music. I love a good soft dome.....

Okay Hard domes. First off,all hard domes have two separate resonances. The free air resonance from ~1000Hz to 1800Hz and the so called "oil can resonance" whith is the resonance of the material itself. That's usually up around 25KHz and it's peak value can be fierce and wide, sometimes 10dB high and from 22Khz to 28KHz in width.

Hard domes started off on the wrong foot for several reasons. The materials, aluminum mostly, were too heavy and/or with incorrect annealing. Some were made in one piece with an all metal "suspension" which of course couldn't move very well and rang like mad. But they did measure well so the bad designs were produced for many years until gradually everyone figured out how to make a proper metal dome.

Take a soft material like non-annealed aluminum and anodize it. You've got a metal dome with internal damping, so internal resonance is minimized. No weird ringy sound riding on the music signal. Now give the dome a suspension made from rubber or doped fabric with enough throw to really excurt in it's low frequency range and you've got a very stiff, accurate piston radiator.

And that's where were at today. There's some nice metal domes which can go head-to-head with soft domes double blind and you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference. Listening in the Harman Multichannel Listening Lab I did become accustomed to hearing the accuracy difference of metal (CMMD) domes vs. some of the Infinity competition which uses soft domes. But there were usually other sonic qualities that that came into play also. So I won't say definitively that I could pick a super soft (expensive) dome design from a metal dome because there are usually too many other sonic factors that come into the picture when listening double blind.
 
T

tedmjr2

Junior Audioholic
Plhart, I really appreciated the interesting information from your post!
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Great stuff from Mr. Hart. Noting like input from a pro.

(If I ever see surplus CMMD Infinity dome tweets at Parts Express or another surplus dealer I'll jump on 'em to try for my next speaker project!)
 

plhart

Audioholic
"If I ever see surplus CMMD Infinity dome tweets at Parts Express or another surplus dealer I'll jump on 'em to try for my next speaker project!)"

Don't count on it Rip. CMMD is proprietary and patented and made under contract from Harman.

I've seen other proprietary Harman drivers show up being offered in the US. In that case, in China, they were drivers which didn't meet Harman frequency response and/or free air resonance tolerances and were sold out the "back door" to another speaker manufacturer who in turn sold them to a Taiwanese distributor. The distributor was unaware of the proprietary patent on the drivers and set up a booth at CES a few years back. Harman lawyers found out and that was the end of that.

At the risk of sounding biased, I really liked the way CMMD performed when designing the Infinity Betas. It's the real deal for woofs, mids and tweets. It just needs to be executed slightly differently for each transducer class to be optimal.
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
plhart said:
"If I ever see surplus CMMD Infinity dome tweets at Parts Express or another surplus dealer I'll jump on 'em to try for my next speaker project!)"

Don't count on it Rip. CMMD is proprietary and patented and made under contract from Harman.
Aww, poop! :(

Well, even though I haven't found a use for them I did get a couple of Infinity aluminum (CMMD?) 4" midranges from Parts Express several months ago.
 
toquemon

toquemon

Full Audioholic
My front speakers (Yamaha NS-300) have a silk dome tweeter and my surround bookshelf speakers (Celestion) have a titanium dome tweeter. I don't hear ringing and don't feel fatigue and all other bad stuff related to metal tweeters, but i preffer the silk dome, the highs are softer, smoother and more natural. On the other hand, i've heard speakers with a horrible sounding metal dome tweeter, like the Control 1 and Control 5 of JBL and i've heard excelent sounding metal domes like those you can find in the Connoisseur series of Energy. So, i guess the main difference is in the design of the metal dome itself, just like Mr. Plhart said.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The wonderful thing about America is the rule of 1st sale, as outlined in federal law. You have the right to resale any property so as long as that property is legal to sell. The copright or patent only governs reproduction of this item.....

How does the fact of CMMD being patented have any affect on resale of a product aquired legally?

-Chris

plhart said:
"If I ever see surplus CMMD Infinity dome tweets at Parts Express or another surplus dealer I'll jump on 'em to try for my next speaker project!)"

Don't count on it Rip. CMMD is proprietary and patented and made under contract from Harman.

I've seen other proprietary Harman drivers show up being offered in the US. In that case, in China, they were drivers which didn't meet Harman frequency response and/or free air resonance tolerances and were sold out the "back door" to another speaker manufacturer who in turn sold them to a Taiwanese distributor. The distributor was unaware of the proprietary patent on the drivers and set up a booth at CES a few years back. Harman lawyers found out and that was the end of that.

At the risk of sounding biased, I really liked the way CMMD performed when designing the Infinity Betas. It's the real deal for woofs, mids and tweets. It just needs to be executed slightly differently for each transducer class to be optimal.
 

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