Advice on Pre-pro, AVR, stereo pre+AVR w/ HT bypass

[Treyster]

I am in the market for a 50/50 HT/Music system. I want great sound quality for music but also want all the bells and whistles of a new AVR to drive HT. It would be great if all of this was available in 1 unit, however, this may not be possible within my budget. I have toyed with the idea of buying something like a Denon 4810 or an Onkyo 5007 as a single unit. The Onkyo 5507 pre-pro is also on my radar. The speakers I want are rated 4 ohm. According to many, I will benefit from separate amps to get the best sound from demanding speakers like this. I have also looked into getting something like a Parasound Model 2100 2 channel pre-amp to bypass the AVR for critical 2 channel music. I guess if I had $15K to spend, the Anthem Statement combo (D2v, P2 & P5) would solve my problem. However, I do not have a $15K budget for electronics. I digress.

How much better will audio sound through a dedicated 2 channel preamp using robust amps than using an AVR with robust amps?

For that matter how much improvement will I hear using beefy amps vs the built-in 140-145 of the upper end AVRs?

I am leaning toward using an AVR instead of the HT pre-pro because I would likely use some of the amp section of the AVR to drive center, surrounds, widths, heights, etc.

The Onkyo Professional pre-pro (5507) is interesting but it appears to suffer from the same clicking problems as the AVR 5007.

My target 2 channel speakers include Salk Song Towers and Salk HT2-TLs.

Anyone want to offer some suggestions, thoughts, criticism? All are welcome.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've seen the Denon AVP-A1HDCI (retail also $7,500) factory refurbished on eCost & Dakmart for $3,500.

The matching Denon POA amp factory refurbished is also around $3,500, so the total combined around $7,500.

Or you can also find the Anthems used on Audiogon.

Another option is the Marantz Pre-Pro + Matching Amp (new or refurbished).

 

[Treyster]

I have read about the advantages of a pre-pro due to there being less heat due to no amps. However, the pre-pro with the most features, the Onkyo Proessional PR-SC5507, seems to suffer from some HDMI audio/video switching issues. I plan on using this everyday in the main TV room.

I am afraid I will be unhappy with clicking/popping during channel changing and audio dropouts during commercials. Plus Onkyo support consistently gets bad press. This pushes me toward the Denon AVR4810 to handle daily TV duties. I guess I would then consider a Parasound 2 channel pre amp for music duties. But have no lean on how to amp the music side. I have researched Emotiva, Outlaw, Parasound, B&K, Audio by Van Alstine (a Salk owners favorite but lacking in automation).

If I use an external amp for my 2 main speakers, I'd like to also use the same amp for my center channel. I guess in my mind this would keep the front soundstage for TV/movies matched. This means I now need a powerful 3 channel amp instead of the more available 2 channel amps.

I haven't considered the Denon pre-pro due to it's cost. I guess $7500 is better than $15K but it is still more than I want to spend. I was hoping to come in around $2K, however with the addition of the 2 channel pre amp, I am probably going to wind up closer to $4K.

I, like other members, wish there were several current pre-pro options that basically take the latest greatest AVR and remove the amps & associated costs.

How will a Denon AVR handle a 4 ohm speaker if I use external amps?

I see the Marantz combo retails for $5K. Any clue what the street price is? Also, as I am unfamiliar with these, how does the pre-pro compare with the feature set of the Denon AVR?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Marantz 8003:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/MARMMAVKIT/Marantz/Av8003-A/v-Preamp-Mm8003-Powered-Amplifier-Kit/1.html

Another option for amps are the ATI (Amplifier Technologies Inc) amps.

ATI make amps for Lexicon, JBL, Earthquake Sound, Outlaw Audio, and probably some other. ATI also owns the high-end Theta audio lines (casablanca III pre-pro costs $10K+).

Classic Audio Parts sells "B" stock (w/ 7 yrs warranty) ATI amps and you can make an offer for the AT2004 amp (400W x 4 @ 4 ohms) for $1,195:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1272217575

You can also find their 3Ch amps on Audiogon. You can make an offer for this AT1803 for $750:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1273939958

 

[Treyster]

I see you own a Denon AVR and ATI amps. How big of a difference do you hear between the ATI separate amps and the AVRs amp section?

 

[Treyster]

AcuDefTecGuy - Thanks - You are quick!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I see you own a Denon AVR and ATI amps. How big of a difference do you hear between the ATI separate amps and the AVRs amp section?

NONE whatsoever.

I got the ATI 600WPC/4ohms amps just because I'm an Audioholic.

The Denon AVR produces great sound all on it's own even when playing > 90dB of music/movie sound.

And because I'm an Audioholic, I also plan on getting the AVP-A1HDCI.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

AcuDefTecGuy - Thanks - You are quick!

Audioholics just love to talk about HT gears all day long.

 

[T2T]

Audioholics just love to talk about HT gears all day long.

Yes, we do. I'll drink to that.

 

[dapack69]

Sorry I don't own a pre/pro, but will in a way in the near future.

I currenty have the 1007 from Onkyo and have had it since October. I know the clicking you're referring to, but the latest firmware has made mine disappear all together. I am a huge Onkyo fan and always will be.

Now to the pre/pro I will have. I plan to buy the Onkyo PA-MC5500 soon as it hits the USA. This will turn my 1007 into the pre and I have just saved myself an extra $800 or so over the 5507. The only thing I see that the 5507 will have over the 1007 is two things which I will never use. Better video upscaling which I am buying all Blu-ray or HD DVD to replace my DVD collection and an USB port, which I will never use. As I have my laptop networked with the 1007, all files get used that way.

Now the Denon setup is very sweet, just out of my price range so I can't comment on how good it is.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am in the market for a 50/50 HT/Music system. I want great sound quality for music but also want all the bells and whistles of a new AVR to drive HT. It would be great if all of this was available in 1 unit, however, this may not be possible within my budget. I have toyed with the idea of buying something like a Denon 4810 or an Onkyo 5007 as a single unit. The Onkyo 5507 pre-pro is also on my radar. The speakers I want are rated 4 ohm. According to many, I will benefit from separate amps to get the best sound from demanding speakers like this. I have also looked into getting something like a Parasound Model 2100 2 channel pre-amp to bypass the AVR for critical 2 channel music. I guess if I had $15K to spend, the Anthem Statement combo (D2v, P2 & P5) would solve my problem. However, I do not have a $15K budget for electronics. I digress.

How much better will audio sound through a dedicated 2 channel preamp using robust amps than using an AVR with robust amps?

For that matter how much improvement will I hear using beefy amps vs the built-in 140-145 of the upper end AVRs?

I am leaning toward using an AVR instead of the HT pre-pro because I would likely use some of the amp section of the AVR to drive center, surrounds, widths, heights, etc.

The Onkyo Professional pre-pro (5507) is interesting but it appears to suffer from the same clicking problems as the AVR 5007.

My target 2 channel speakers include Salk Song Towers and Salk HT2-TLs.

Anyone want to offer some suggestions, thoughts, criticism? All are welcome.

I can thoroughly recommend the Marantz AV 8003.

I have been using one for the last month. Here is my review.

I also evaluated the Audyssey system in the AV 8003 as a separate report.

I can recommend the Marantz unit without reservation. In terms of its performance as a high quality preamp, it can stand against anything.

In addition the FM tuner is of the highest quality.

 

[jostenmeat]

I can thoroughly recommend the Marantz AV 8003.

I have been using one for the last month. Here is my review.

I also evaluated the Audyssey system in the AV 8003 as a separate report.

I can recommend the Marantz unit without reservation. In terms of its performance as a high quality preamp, it can stand against anything.

In addition the FM tuner is of the highest quality.

Doc! I have to admit that I smile when I think that not only have you happily adopted bluray, but are also praising Audyssey technology, if in a somewhat muted manner due to compromises. I swear it seemed at times that you avidly hated these technologies, lol.

Anyways, I would like to share a couple of things that may or may not help someone be more educated about this stuff.

Marantz has never used the highest consumer EQ from Audyssey, the XT version. According to their website, XT can have up to eight times the satellite resolution of the regular MultEQ (which is what the 8003 sports).

If one had access to a Audyssey Pro capable unit, then the satellite filter resolution can be up to 16x greater than MultEQ. These are almost uniquely with pre/pros (All Integra/Onkyo, Denon, NAD T175). I think* the only receiver with this capability is the Denon 5308.

I believe the pro kit costs in the ballpark of $500-600. I actually asked if I could possibly join a training class, but I'm not allowed as I have to be a pro CI, or something, to be accepted. Still, many non-pros have done this. I bet for someone like you, it would be pretty easy. My own unit is not Pro capable anyways, but I did consider upgrading just for that at times (there was once a sale on the Integra 9.8 for only $600 or so).

Finally, and I don't know how you do it with Marantz, you should* have more than one target curve available, at least if going by what other manufacturers have. (Then again, I only really paid attention to XT units.) There is probably the house Audyssey curve (with HF rolloff), and the Flat curve. Historically, Denon was superior to Onkyo as far as the flexibility of choosing either curve based upon listening mode (particularly stereo). NAD goes further by adding a third curve as designed by Paul Barton (PSB).

Cheers!

 

[TLS Guy]

Doc! I have to admit that I smile when I think that not only have you happily adopted bluray, but are also praising Audyssey technology, if in a somewhat muted manner due to compromises. I swear it seemed at times that you avidly hated these technologies, lol.

Anyways, I would like to share a couple of things that may or may not help someone be more educated about this stuff.

Marantz has never used the highest consumer EQ from Audyssey, the XT version. According to their website, XT can have up to eight times the satellite resolution of the regular MultEQ (which is what the 8003 sports).

If one had access to a Audyssey Pro capable unit, then the satellite filter resolution can be up to 16x greater than MultEQ. These are almost uniquely with pre/pros (All Integra/Onkyo, Denon, NAD T175). I think* the only receiver with this capability is the Denon 5308.

I believe the pro kit costs in the ballpark of $500-600. I actually asked if I could possibly join a training class, but I'm not allowed as I have to be a pro CI, or something, to be accepted. Still, many non-pros have done this. I bet for someone like you, it would be pretty easy. My own unit is not Pro capable anyways, but I did consider upgrading just for that at times (there was once a sale on the Integra 9.8 for only $600 or so).

Finally, and I don't know how you do it with Marantz, you should* have more than one target curve available, at least if going by what other manufacturers have. (Then again, I only really paid attention to XT units.) There is probably the house Audyssey curve (with HF rolloff), and the Flat curve. Historically, Denon was superior to Onkyo as far as the flexibility of choosing either curve based upon listening mode (particularly stereo). NAD goes further by adding a third curve as designed by Paul Barton (PSB).

Cheers!

I'm not really bothered about it, as my speakers are not in need of Eq as you can see. Any manufacturer would envy that midband response, under anechoic chamber conditions, let alone in room.

The only thing I felt was of benefit was the re timing, sub excepted.

I was surprised though to see how the program figured out how my set up was designed to operate.

The table I posted has all the curves given. You can select Audyssey flat, front or Eq off. I have left the Eq off as I did not like the HF rise it wanted to introduce. I know the speakers do not roll off, but at the listening distance they do, and it is what the ear expects, and should not be equalized.

So in essence I stand by my belief that good speakers do not require Eq and will sound good in a wide variety of listening conditions.

So I'm not disappointed with the Marantz at all, and it does everything I require and more.

 

[highfigh]

How will a Denon AVR handle a 4 ohm speaker if I use external amps?

With external amplifiers, the Denon doesn't see the speaker load, at all. The power amps will need to be rated for adequate output into that load but the Denon could be rated for 1W/ch @16 Ohms and if you connect the speakers to a separate amp, the Denon will never know it.

 

[highfigh]

I can thoroughly recommend the Marantz AV 8003.

I have been using one for the last month. Here is my review.

I also evaluated the Audyssey system in the AV 8003 as a separate report.

I can recommend the Marantz unit without reservation. In terms of its performance as a high quality preamp, it can stand against anything.

In addition the FM tuner is of the highest quality.

What are you using for an FM antenna, and how far from the tower are you located? I'm less than 1/2 mile from our local antenna farm and one of the stations I listen to is problematic, especially now that they increased their transmitter power. My tuner is being overloaded but I haven't had a chance to try attenuators. I just bought a Denon AVR-990 and my option is listening to something else.

 

[TLS Guy]

What are you using for an FM antenna, and how far from the tower are you located? I'm less than 1/2 mile from our local antenna farm and one of the stations I listen to is problematic, especially now that they increased their transmitter power. My tuner is being overloaded but I haven't had a chance to try attenuators. I just bought a Denon AVR-990 and my option is listening to something else.

I listen to MPR KCRB 88.5 FM out of Bemidji MN. The transmitter is at Blackduck MN, 10 miles north of Lake Winnipigoshish in the Chippewa National Forrest. It is I suppose about 35 to 40 miles as the crow flies from Lake Benedict.

I use a high gain Yagi Uda array from Winegard.

I would not assume your FM listening problem is to high a signal amplitude from being too close to the transmitter. Even when close, a good antenna is essential for good FM listening. Proximity to a transmitter more often than not makes multipath distortion worse, because of the intensity of the reflected signals. So even with proximity, a directional antenna can still be a problem solver.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So I'm not disappointed with the Marantz at all, and it does everything I require and more.

I just can't believe you bought the Marantz just because it is made in China.

J/K. I think my house is made in China and shipped to the US by boat.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Marantz vs Denon

And just FYI, the Marantz pre-pro has a BETTER SNR than the $7,500 Denon AVP-A1 according to HTM:

Marantz (-122 dBA SNR)
Denon (-114 dBA SNR)

 

[TLS Guy]

And just FYI, the Marantz pre-pro has a BETTER SNR than the $7,500 Denon AVP-A1 according to HTM:

Marantz (-122 dBA SNR)
Denon (-114 dBA SNR)

Everything is made in China, my last Rotel was, my Oppo player and now the Quad 909s.

It is going to do the West no good and we are sealing our fate. The truth is I don't think we can manufacture to the standards we used to have, nor to current far Eastern standards. That is called a disgrace.

Did you read my review of the Oppo player?

Now that was presented in a classy way, and all our companies can do is pass it off as there own, and hope no one will notice. That's really bankrupt.

If any one thinks our economy will become rosy they are deluded.

As to signal to noise, the Marantz is better because the inputs are NOT balanced.

To balance an input requires a parallel first stage, and increased noise.

The purpose of balanced cabling is to cancel interference on very long runs in noisy buildings. It works well for that application.

So for domestic use you are better off using unbalanced connections.

I had to be educated on that by Peter Walker years ago. So he only put xlr inputs on his professional amps, never his domestic ones.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Everything is made in China, my last Rotel was, my Oppo player and now the Quad 909s...

My Denons are made in Japan & my ATI amps are made in the USA.

So for domestic use you are better off using unbalanced connections.

I use Cox Cable. So when I hook up my cable line in my HT room, it creates a very loud HUM noise on my amps.

I have 3 options:
1) get a ground isolator for the cable line
2) unplug the cable line unless I am actually watching TV (rare)
3) use XLR connectors.

Right now I'm using option #2.

But next week, I'm going to try the XLR-to-RCA cables to see if that cancels the hum noise.

In the near future (probably Christmas) I'm planning on using XLR-XLR cables when I get my new Pre-pro.