Advice needed for an amp

[ummaya]

Hello,

I have a pair of Harbeth HL Compact 7ES-3 speakers, a Bluesound Node and no amp.
My budget for the amp is $1000.

I mostly listen to jazz quartets, classical chamber music, some Rock and Blues. My source is my computer FLAC music files and I have Roon and Tidal subscriptions. I listen to music at a low volume and I sit about 3 meters from the speakers and the distance between speakers is 2 meters.

I almost purchased a 85wpc Yamaha A-S501 (recommended by some people from the Harbeth users forum) but yesterday I found a 1985 serviced 45wpc Naim Audio Nap 110 amp + NAC 42 preamp for the same price. I cannot audition the amp at my place with my speakers.

What would be the best choice: the vintage Nap 110+NAC 42 or a brand new Yamaha A-S501?


By the way, the Yamaha A-S501 is 85wpc but the A-S701 is 100wpc. Do you know if the main difference between them is 15w or also the sound quality?

Thank you very much

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Even if my speakers don’t need 100W, I sure would sleep better at night knowing my amp is at least 100W.

But technically speaking, 15W difference is practically nothing.

 

[PENG]

Hello,

I have a pair of Harbeth HL Compact 7ES-3 speakers, a Bluesound Node and no amp.
My budget for the amp is $1000.

Based on specs, you probably can get the best from the those speakers with a 150 W 8 ohm rated amp, that typically can do about 200 W into 4 ohms on music program, so for $1,000 you have lots of choices, but I would highly recommend the Hypex based class D amps, for lower distortions, light weight, and small size so easy to place.

I mostly listen to jazz quartets, classical chamber music, some Rock and Blues. My source is my computer FLAC music files and I have Roon and Tidal subscriptions. I listen to music at a low volume and I sit about 3 meters from the speakers and the distance between speakers is 2 meters.

Then the NC252MP based amps should be very suitable for you:
2-channel Hypex NC252MP NCORE Amplifier — Buckeye Amps - Hypex NCORE and Purifi 1ET400A

You can also get a quote from @DigitalDawn, a dealer on this forum, who should be able to answer any questions you may have.

I almost purchased a 85wpc Yamaha A-S501 (recommended by some people from the Harbeth users forum) but yesterday I found a 1985 serviced 45wpc Naim Audio Nap 110 amp + NAC 42 preamp for the same price. I cannot audition the amp at my place with my speakers.

Those Yamaha receivers are good to look at, and have great features, but just be aware that they are basically no different than an entry level AVR but without the surround channels and tuner.

A 45 W Naim amp is not good for your speakers that are 6 ohm nomial rated, so likely have dips to 4 ohms or below and sensitivity is not great, at only 86 dB/2.83V/m, unless you use them for desktop, or near field, but you said you sit from 3 meters.

What would be the best choice: the vintage Nap 110+NAC 42 or a brand new Yamaha A-S501?

Niether, for reasons stated above.

By the way, the Yamaha A-S501 is 85wpc but the A-S701 is 100wpc. Do you know if the main difference between them is 15w or also the sound quality?

Again, those are not good choices for you, power is king, and those little guys don't have what it takes for your needs. At low volume they are fine, but why pay more for less? Why not get a 150 W amp that will give you enough headroom to ensure the amp won't clip even when listening to music that has very high dynamic range, even if a 85 W amp will let you listen at very loud level? It's quality too, not just quantify, in case you have good hearing and also discerning ears.

By the way, you said your source is "FLAC", but at what resolution? Flac just implies lossless compression, but it could be at MP3 resolution depending on the master recording/mastering. If you are keen on the higher solution flac files such as 24b/192 kHz and DSD 64,128,256, then that's another reason to stay away from those A-S701 or even the A-S801. You will be much better off getting a low cost desktop DAC that has volume control so you can use it directly with your PC and the power amp, and still stay within the $1,000 budget.

An AVR-X3700/X3800H AVR would be a great choice too, but then you would have stretch your budget to around $1,300/$1,600 and have no use for the extra channels.

 

[ummaya]

I would highly recommend the Hypex based class D amps

Why are class A/B considered by many as "more musical" (whatever that really means) than class D amps? Is it a myth?
So you mean that at the same price, a more powerful quality class D amp is better for driving my speakers than a substantially less powerful quality class A/B amp?

You can also get a quote from @DigitalDawn, a dealer on this forum, who should be able to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you very much, I will contact him

 

[Eppie]

Yes, the notion that one amplifier architecture is "more musical" than another is just a myth. Solid state amplifiers have ruler flat response curves from 20Hz to 20kHz so they should all sound the same.

Does the Bluesound Node have remote volume and is there a chance that you will be using other sources besides the Node? That Buckeye unit is a straight power amp so would have to have the Bluesound remote and the volume must be adjustable. If the Node is line level only then you need an integrated amp. The Buckeye is XLR in so you would also need RCA to XLR adapter cables and I would check that the output voltage of the Node is sufficient to drive the Buckeye.

Hard to find integrated amps with over 100W/ch in that price range. Anything decent is going to be $1500-$2000 or more (after a cursory look). As mentioned, an AVR will do the same job and will allow for future expansion.

 

[PENG]

Why are class A/B considered by many as "more musical" (whatever that really means) than class D amps? Is it a myth?

I don't know, some people might have made such claims, but not me. First of all, what is the definition of "more musical" and who defines it?

If you look it up on the Britannical Encyclopaedia:
Musical sound | Characteristics, Types, & Facts | Britannica

It says " musical sound, any tone with characteristics such as controlled pitch and timbre. The sounds are produced by instruments in which the periodic vibrations can be controlled by the performer."

So in that sense, you would think that it is better to have an amp that just amplify the signal without altering the input signal's tone, pitch and timbre etc.

As Anthem said in their FAQ, the part I often would quote when people asked:
Frequently Asked Questions | Anthem® (anthemav.com)

Other manufacturers (McIntosh might be one) might have made somewhat similar statements, iirc...

Do the amps have a warm sound or a bright sound?

None of our components are designed with a "sonic flavor" other than playing exactly what's in a recording. Unfortunately with pop CD mastering, pushing levels way into overload regardless of how much distortion this adds is all too common. Recordings of acoustic instruments with minimal or no processing during mastering sound more natural, therefore they are a much better test of how natural-sounding the playback equipment is.

Or, if you just Google for warm sound, you might come across many different versions, and it may be difficult to find much about "musical sound", though it would seem obvious the two terms seem quite interchangeable in a lot of people's minds.

As an example, take a read of the AVS forum thread on this topic and you will see all kinds of opinions:
However, it does seem that to a lot of people, such as post#12 (the poster said he's a musician):
What is "warm sound" | AVS Forum

He said:

Typically "warm" means slightly rolled off (attenuated) high frequencies, with more emphasis on the mid-low frequencies

There isn't really a real definition that I am aware of, if you do, please share.

I don't think we can say that it is a myth, at least not without qualifications. If we qualify it by saying something like:

Amps that have specs and measurements that indicate transparency, such as evidence by having the following characteristics:

- Distortions and noise well below the threshold of audibility, example: -80 dB THD+N, full bandwidth, from 1 W to rated output.
- Frequency response within +/- 0.5 dB within the audio band 20 to 20,000 Hz.
- Very low output impedance, such that damping factor is >say, 50 in the audio band of 20 to 20,000 Hz.
- Cross talk between channels well below the threshold of audibility.
- Used for listening level that require power (preferably in terms of current) well below the amp's limits.

will sound different in that some will sound warm and musical, while others may sound crisp, bright, or even harsh, resulting in fatigue after a long session listening to music.

Then I would say such a claim may be considered a "myth".

 

[fmw]

In my experience, home amplifiers don't need the power that the majority of modern amplifiers provide. For example I rarely see peaks over 15 or 20 watts at uncomfortably loud levels for me so a lot of power is only necessary when you are going to play music very loudly or you need to fill a very large room. In other words, listening to jazz rarely needs a lot of power. Pro audio needs a lot of power because the systems are addressing large venues - sometimes the great outdoors. In a normal home listening room a handful of watts usually gets the job done. Buy some overhead but don't think you need to overdo it.

Having said that, I would recommend the new unit, not because it would sound better but because it would have less wear and tear. Capacitors in the circuits have a finite life span, for instance, so new is better than old for that reason.

 

[PENG]

So you mean that at the same price, a more powerful quality class D amp is better for driving my speakers than a substantially less powerful quality class A/B amp?

Yes, in your case, based on the speaker's 86 dB/2.83V/1m and 6 ohm nominal impedance, and 150 W power handling spec., you should pair them with a 150 W 8 ohm amp as minimum.

Even if you listen to low level, think about doubling the power only gives you 3 dB more. To perceive sound level twice as loud, you may need as much as 10 dB more power.

If you typically listen to 70 dB at 11 feet, you probably only need 1 W or less on average, but if the music you listen to has 20 dB peaks above the average level, then at the peak, the amp will have to output 100 W. If the music has 23 dB peak, then it would be 200 W.

As an extreme example, the linked database show the Denon Technical Audio CD has DR of a whopping 48 dB!!
You don't need to worry that obviously as you don't have the speakers to benefit from that anyway.

Album details - Dynamic Range DB (loudness-war.info)

Album list - Dynamic Range DB (loudness-war.info)

You have very nice speakers, and your dealer might have told you they are easy to drive, even 30 W, but the truth is, it depends. As I said before, if you use them nearfield then 45 W could be plenty, but you seat from 3 meters. Besides, "watts" are dirt cheap, compared to the price of your speakers.

The Hypex class D amps don't have much headroom, based on tests, but that is a good thing depending on how you look at it. The fact is, if it can output 250 W into 4 ohms, you don't care about headroom.

Thank you very much, I will contact him

I think not "him", but "her", if I remember correctly.
(3) Anyone with experience with a Buckeye Purifi class D amp for HT? | Audioholics Home Theater Forums

 

[PENG]

Anything decent is going to be $1500-$2000 or more (after a cursory look). As mentioned, an AVR will do the same job and will allow for future expansion.

There is one that might just do the trick:
Audiophonics DA-S250NC DAC & Power Amp Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

$641, even comes with a good DAC.

 

[ummaya]

your dealer might have told you they are easy to drive, even 30 W

Yep, exactly!

 

[ummaya]

Does the Bluesound Node have remote volume

The audio settings are managed from the Bluesound app on the phone

 

[fmw]

Yep, exactly!

To add some perspective. Every 3 db of volume level requires a doubling of the amplifier power. So note that the difference between a 30 watt amp and a 100 watt amp is only 6 or 7 db (I'm not good at calculating) of overhead. That is certainly an audible change in volume but not very big one.

The issue is peaks. Under normal listening conditions in a home 1 to 3 watts average power dissipation is expected depending on the listening distance, speaker efficiency etc. The rest is overhead to handle peaks that go above average. And those peaks can consume a lot of power for a short period of time as you can see by the need for power doubling for every 3 db of volume level. If you listen to Classical orchestral music, the peaks can be pretty severe. They can be as well with a lot of movie sound tracks. With pop, country, jazz, rock and so forth not so much since most of the recordings are usually compressed to prevent wide swings in peaks.

I listen to classical orchestral music and movie sound tracks all the time. My receiver is rated at 150 watts per channel. Since most of the power is used in the bass frequencies those 150 watta are usually idling with the 300 watt subwoofer amplifier picking up most the power requirement. It is one of many reasons I advise everyone to use a subwoofer with any audio system.

My computer system audio has a 7 watt per channel stereo amplifer to drive the EMP bookshelf speakers I use there. But I have a 10" powered subwoofer as well so I can't recall ever hearing any signal clipping. My listening distance is only a couple of feet so I don't test the tiny amplifier all that much. I usually listen to jazz or small ensemble classical on that system. It is background music while I use the computer.

Hope that helps with some perspective. If you don't have a powered subwoofer you may need more power than I need. If you do then understand the subwoofer amp is working harder than the stereo amp and reducing the load on that amp a bunch.

Happy listening.