Advice - Metal

[-Esoteric-]

Alright guys my first post is going to be a question I've found no help with anywhere else:

I'm into mostly death and thrash metal. Thrash isn't really too complicated sound wise, but death metal is an entirely different story.

The kick drums are nearly always being used and are generally played extremely quicky. The guitars are downtuned, typically more than one step. The bass guitar is downtuned... and the vocals are very low guttural growls or belches if you will.

This creates several problems with the listening experience:

The kick drums are played quickly to the point that the subwoofer can't keep up, so instead of hearing what is actually played (very tight patterns), you hear a blurry mess of unclear drum-hits.

Because there are so many low tones happening at once, the music drowns out the vocals. This has been a terrible problem on every "system" i've played the music on. The vocals typically come through very clear on a cheap, two speaker table top system i've got, but sound distant and faint on my klipsch 5.1 promedia, and on setups in cars.

Here are a couple of sample mp3's ...

This album has a relatively clean production : Decrepit Birth- Condemned to Nothingness

In contrast this one is a bit dirty: Disgorge- Denied Existence

Both albums have a lot of potential production wise, but i've had a tough time getting them to sound good.

My goals would be to take the vocals to their true presence and avoid having the music drown them out, as well as keep the low, muddy guitar tone and the kick drums as clean and clear as possible.

So I suppose i've either got EQ problems or equipment problems - And you guys are probably my best bet on suggestions. I don't want to go to circuit city and ask some guy what's going to be clear and have him tell me to buy kicker, like he would've regardless of what I said to him. I'm not concerned with prices, I just want to know what you guys think would bring the best out of music this complex/fast.

 

[j_garcia]

If listening in 96k MP3, THAT is the problem - clean yes, but low bitrate MP3 will never sound good even on a good system. The more complex, the more MP3 will handicap you. Need list of equipment being used, as it does sound like an equipment issue if it isn't MP3.

You call that vocals?

 

[-Esoteric-]

Hmm I don't really know anything about bit rate to be honest.

Most of my files are 192, some 244... I don't know what the files are at on cd so I suppose learning these things would be a good start.

We should approach this assuming I am going from the actual disc and I'll assess things that way from now on. The files I posted are just the best examples of the style I could find online.

Two more examples, this first one I have a terrible time hearing the vocals clearly on almost any set of speakers but I'm not convinced the production is 100% at fault:

Guitar and drums sound excellent on this release


Here's another album with a nice production that just sounds like crap on most things I've played it on:

a bass heavy example

 

[-Esoteric-]

Oh and the vocals are really just an acquired taste. Took me a long time to appreciate them.

Equipment:

Klipsch 5.1 promedia ultra, stock cables ... well ... stock everything.

Card: Creative Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS

I don't know what that old tabletop system is, but it sounds damn good and that's one of the things that irks me about this.

 

[j_garcia]

192K is decent, and is about where the quality is OK for normal listening, but I can definitley hear the loss due to compression on my main system - most noticable in the bass. Generally, there are 128kbps, 192k, 256k, and 320k. For CDs, there is no compression so issues with sound are going to be related to the mixing/mastering.

None of those you linked sound bad on headphones right now, but I can't say how they sound on a larger system at the moment. All of them do share a similar "muffled" sound to them however, and the vocal clarity isn't good either, but I don't think that is a primary criteria for this particular type of music. I don't want to say production "issues" so much as decisions made during the mixing/mastering. I have 192K tracks that easily have much higher fidelity to them, but the original redbook CD tracks were also very well mastered, so that will have the largest impact on what you ultimately hear no matter what bitrate you rip to.

Bass issues such as "one note" syndrome, especially with fast bass passages can usually be attributed to a less than stellar sub.

 

[-Esoteric-]

Vocal clarity actually is of primary concern when dealing with this music to me - of course I simply mean clarity in hearing what was produced by the individual, even if it was just a gurgle I don't intend to hear the word, I want to hear the phrasing/tone of the vocal growl clearly and as loudly as was intended by the producer.

That's one of the things that still has me confused with the situation, Vocals are nearly crystal clear on that 200 dollar bookshelf cd player I have that's gotta be 5 or more years old... Yet when I play the same songs on this nice klipsch system it's all mucked up.

Thank you for the input though, I appreciate it. I wanna get all this figured out before I dump money into another system for this compytron or my car.

 

[j_garcia]

Of note too, a sealed sub will generally be better suited to fast bass notes.

 

[mazersteven]

I must be getting old. I can't understand why anyone would want to listen to that. But then again when I was younger I'm sure older folks would wonder why I was listening to Led Zeppelin.

 

[sleeper]

Just a suggestion.
Make sure that your system in question is properly wired, especially making sure all wiring is in phase. Run your system in stereo and try lowering your sub's output just a tad. (a db or two).
Also, this site has some great articles in regards to sub placement you may want to check. Try running your system direct, leave out any added processing... see if that helps to clear things up a bit.

sleeper

 

[-Esoteric-]

I must be getting old. I can't understand why anyone would want to listen to that. But then again when I was younger I'm sure older folks would wonder why I was listening to Led Zeppelin.

Nah it's not a matter of age.

It is a difficult genre to appreciate - but one that is absolutely filled to the brim with talent. The compositions themselves are typically very involved and complex; and, likewise, what is physically being played on each instrument is also very involved and complex. Death metal as a genre holds many of the world's absolute best musicians. Guitar, bass, drums, all of it.

As a listener the music is very fulfilling. It's extremely exciting music, and though it's difficult to understand, especially at first, the songs/albums have a lot of feeling to them as well.

Of course you have your good and bad bands, like any genre. But this kind of stuff is persistently written off as mindless garbage when it is anything but. I suppose that's almost part of the charm of being a fan/musician. You aren't likely to ever have the respect of very many people because it takes an open mind to give something sounding so harsh and chaotic a chance :: But the respect you DO earn from the people who grow to love the style of music is meaningful and significant.

You have to take an objective look. These guys write album after album, go on shitty-van-tour after shitty-van-tour.. with no hopes of ever "making it" financially because there simply is no such thing for the style. It's all about passion and love of the music.

Sorry for the essay, I love this stuff.

 

[j_garcia]

Actually, I like the guitar and drums, it is the vocals that don't appeal to me.

 

[sleeper]

Actually, I like the guitar and drums, it is the vocals that don't appeal to me.

Totally agree.

sleeper

 

[-Esoteric-]

Yeah that's what keeps most people from enjoying it.

Anyway thank you for the suggestions I will have a lot to consider and I appreciate it.

 

[Resident Loser]

Pffaattt...

...good gravy...It seems like everything sounds identical in this genre and could be entitled "Cookie Monster Eats Some Bad Oysters And Worships At The Porcelain Altar"

"Passion and love of music"????...music requires melody and this stuff is completely devoid of it...Zep at it's worst is a bloody symphony with melody, harmony and counterpoint in comparison...

jimHJJ(...and you're right, age has nothing to do with it...)

 

[nav]

...good gravy...It seems like everything sounds identical in this genre and could be entitled "Cookie Monster Eats Some Bad Oysters And Worships At The Porcelain Altar"

"Passion and love of music"????...music requires melody and this stuff is completely devoid of it...Zep at it's worst is a bloody symphony with melody, harmony and counterpoint in comparison...

I can't say I've ever given the OP's two bands a listen before or that I'm instantaneously a fan after listening to those two MP3s, but death metal and its sub-genres do offer some bands I truly enjoy.

If you're looking for melodic death metal, try Opeth (I recommend Blackwater Park or My Arms, Your Hearse to start with). Opeth is a terrific band and I you truly may start to enjoy the vocals if you find the music to your tastes. They're one of my absolute favorite bands, and I put off giving them a listen for far too long because I assumed I wouldn't enjoy them due to their death metal labeling.

I started listening to death metal styled vocals with Meshuggah, which is commonly referred to as "tech" or "math" metal. They're a much harder sound to get into compared to Opeth (I would recommend Catch 33 or I to start with; I kind-of goes through many of their different styles in its lengthiness).

I've also started listening to what's referred to as "post-metal" bands. Still death metal styled vocals to an extent but generally the music is paced much slower and focuses on composition over instrumental complexity or the lyrics. Isis (try Panopticon) and Cult of Luna (try Somewhere Along the Highway or Salvation, their "softest" album) are the two I've listened to extensively so far.

 

[Resident Loser]

Mammapajama...

...If these guys, Opeth that is, can produce something like Windowpane why in the world would they fall back on vocals that sound like the opening of Sabbath's Iron Man...Even Baying Of The Hounds is interesting from a musical POV, parts of it sounding very Yes-like and progressive..but then we have to go to the devil-talk...or whatever it's supposed to be...

jimHJJ(...IMHO what a waste of talent...)

 

[nav]

...If these guys, Opeth that is, can produce something like Windowpane why in the world would they fall back on vocals that sound like the opening of Sabbath's Iron Man...Even Baying Of The Hounds is interesting from a musical POV, parts of it sounding very Yes-like and progressive..but then we have to go to the devil-talk...or whatever it's supposed to be...

Not liking the vocal style is fair enough. I'm just happy that we do agree that not "everything sounds identical in this genre" and that "music requires melody and this stuff is completely devoid of it" isn't universally applicable to the genre.

 

[Resident Loser]

Well...

Not liking the vocal style is fair enough. I'm just happy that we do agree that not "everything sounds identical in this genre" and that "music requires melody and this stuff is completely devoid of it" isn't universally applicable to the genre.

...I Googled Disgorge and found a sampling site...every choice I tried to sample (including other groups) seemed to be totally non-melodic, relying heavily on the same vocal effect...so much so that it prompted my comments...

jimHJJ(...mea culpa...)

 

[highfihoney]

Because there are so many low tones happening at once, the music drowns out the vocals.

Obviously you realize that your overloading your subs capabilities in fact its next to impossible for any single sub to be able to accurately reproduce this kind of music.

This has been a terrible problem on every "system" i've played the music on.[/QOUTE]

[QOUTE=-Esoteric-] The vocals typically come through very clear on a cheap, two speaker table top system i've got, but sound distant and faint on my klipsch 5.1 & on set ups in cars

No,your missing a big part of the picture,it hasnt sounded bad on every system you've played the music on.

Take a look at the table top's bass response capabilities,it has none or very little,no matter what you do its only going to reproduce the highest of bass notes,more like deep midrange than a real bass response,this is why the vocals sound clear on the cheap system,your klipsch has the capability to reproduce the lower bass notes & with so many hard hitting low notes going on at once & at the speed they are happening there's no way any standard single sub will keep up,it's not going to happen.

You've got some choices in solving this problem,first off & the easiest & no cash solution is to take some of the load off of your sub,i would guess that your sub is set at it's lowest possible setting,this is not good for that type of music,you can adjust your sub to help clean up the vocals & to get a cleaner bass response.

Start out with the db level of the music just beyond the point where the bass gets muddy & start raising the bass response until the vocals start to sound right & the bass becomes clear,you will lose some bass response but it shouldnt be very audible & it should stop the smearing of the bass,the response you will loose is down in the 10hz to 20 hz range & those frequiences are more felt than heard but they will reek havoc on a sub that is multi tasking.

If after doing this & the vocals & bass response sound the way you want but you still miss a bit of the IMPACT OR SLAM THAT YOU FEELyou can restore that effect by adding another sub that can dig very deep to atleast 20hz but preferably 10hz & let the other sub reproduce all the higher octave bass notes.

You need to understand that the type of bass response required to handle these type of constant low octave bass notes are way beyong most single driver single xover subwoofers capabilities to start with,a normal bass note in the extreme lower octaves is more like a slow droning effect where the single note lasts for several seconds & the notes are not a constant,in death metal these notes are constant which is whats leading to your sub being overloaded & over worked & is gaurenteed to be causing all of the smearing of the bass.

 

[drivehard]

Just have to say I'm a big fan of true metal as well

For those who are new to this genre...I would start with the following:

Killswitch Engage "The End of Heartache"
Shadows Fall "War Within"

I think these two bands are a good intro...one is more melodic (killswitch) and the other a bit heavier on the drums and a bit heavier on the vocals.

Opeth - big fan!

Another little known band to give a try is Black Flood Diesel.