Adding height speakers, asking for placement help!

[NoD~]

Hello,

I'm currently using a 7.2 setup in my humble theater, primarily for theater experience, but not shy to play music on occasion. Every speaker is in-wall to save as much space as possible (including the infinite baffle subwoofers in my crawl space). I figured I'd eventually setup for Atmos/Auro3D/etc, but would like to use my height channel outputs from the receiver for now (DPL-IIz). I've done quite a bit of mapping and modeling to insure I have accurate information and attached is a diagram of my setup.

About the room: Green represents absorptive acoustic materials (with material on the ceiling where it looks like it's in the middle of the room) and yellow is diffusion (mostly designed 2D or 3D quadratic diffusion, one book case). First reflections points for all speakers are fairly well addressed. The red and blue large circles are the two primary listening positions. Speakers as labelled! Ceiling is just over 7-1/2 feet.

About the gear: My receiver is an older Pioneer VSX-1124, chosen originally because it had pre-outs for the front L/R at a decent price. Those pre-outs connect to a MiniDSP 2x8 (tuned for all drivers with delay, EQ, crossover, and level), which feeds a 6x100w class D amp to a WMTMW in-wall custom install (Dayton Audio Reference drivers) for the L/R, which I build with some toe-in to bring the drivers a little more on-axis with the listener. The midranges are enclosed, the midbass woofers are free-air into the 2x6 wall cavity. The other 2 channels of the DSP goes to a Behringer iNuke 6000, which feeds 4 total Fi Audio IB318v1 subwoofers (in stereo, 2 subwoofer per manifold). These are set to the "large" speaker on the receiver to insure all the LFE goes here. The center channel is a Dayton Reference MTM, using the same mid and tweet drivers as the L/R's, but with a custom passive crossover. The 4 surrounds are Dayton's Microedge 8" drivers (perhaps will custom build some Dayton Reference MT's one day). 80hz I believe is my crossover between all the center and surround channels to the L/R/SWs. I tuned the Pioneer's EQ to match as close as I could to the L/R channels.

About the issue: Adding the height channel to the existing setup has a few options. I'm trying to determine which option would be best. I'm primarily interested in the Auro3D's 30* goal, but my acoustic treatment on the ceiling seems to have already claimed that space! So I have some options to choose from...
A. In the corner, above the existing L/R speakers. This puts me at about 17* listening position.
B. On the far side of the acoustic treatment (between treatment and front wall) in the ceiling. This puts them around 23* to the listening position.
C. On the near side of the acoustic treatment (between treatment and listening position) in the ceiling. This puts them around 40* to the listening position.
D. Put them at 30*, somehow integrating into the acoustic treatment. This would be fairly complicated and unlikely something I'd have motivation to do, but it "could" be done.

I currently have a pair of in-ceiling Dayton Microedge 6" in the box, ready to go, for any ceiling installation as a temporary, or possibly permanent, install. I wouldn't mind making an enclosure and doing something to bring in the designed toe-in to the listener later down the line.

I'm not afraid to do the work to make anything "more perfect than not" if it's something that'll make the difference (hence option D isn't off the table). Anyways, I'd love your input on this.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Welcome. Couple questions. If you’re main use is movies. How did you decide on an Auro compatible layout? There’s very little content available here. But you can buy some from overseas.
Is the ceiling a total no go? I would consider moving some treatments to accommodate tops. Imo 30° is too low to support good separation between bed and height layer, and that’s what will give a good experience. Also. Are you considering only two speakers? Personally if not going IN ceiling I like side heights better than front heights as it is usually closer to TOPS locations.

 

[NoD~]

Welcome. Couple questions. If you’re main use is movies. How did you decide on an Auro compatible layout? There’s very little content available here. But you can buy some from overseas.
Is the ceiling a total no go? I would consider moving some treatments to accommodate tops. Imo 30° is too low to support good separation between bed and height layer, and that’s what will give a good experience. Also. Are you considering only two speakers? Personally if not going IN ceiling I like side heights better than front heights as it is usually closer to TOPS locations.

Thanks for the reply.

The layout desire comes from several Youtube videos I've seen comparing the various options. Several suggest that the 30° on the height channels instead of the Atmos 45° offers better immersions. Obviously, I'm relying on other user experience here! So not so much that I'm planning to use Auro3D, but simply, the 30° concept. It seems that Atmos as 30° even seems to work well.

e.g.

There's also an interesting PDF linked in the video description with various diagrams.

I can pretty easily install at around 40°, if going above 30° is desirable.

I'd ultimately love to go 4 channels of height, but with my current receiver, I only have the option of front height or front wide. After fine tuning the distance setting between the speakers, I feel that a width channel wouldn't help, as the transitions from Front to Surround speakers is pretty good already.

I'm definitely willing to cut holes anywhere that makes for the best movie experience! Just trying to insure I do it right the first time. Patching holes is worse than cutting them.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thanks for the reply.

The layout desire comes from several Youtube videos I've seen comparing the various options. Several suggest that the 30° on the height channels instead of the Atmos 45° offers better immersions. Obviously, I'm relying on other user experience here! So not so much that I'm planning to use Auro3D, but simply, the 30° concept. It seems that Atmos as 30° even seems to work well.

e.g.

There's also an interesting PDF linked in the video description with various diagrams.

I can pretty easily install at around 40°, if going above 30° is desirable.

I'd ultimately love to go 4 channels of height, but with my current receiver, I only have the option of front height or front wide. After fine tuning the distance setting between the speakers, I feel that a width channel wouldn't help, as the transitions from Front to Surround speakers is pretty good already.

I'm definitely willing to cut holes anywhere that makes for the best movie experience! Just trying to insure I do it right the first time. Patching holes is worse than cutting them.

Well there has been a rash of videos lately similar to that one. I doubt he’s even tried any different configurations. Maybe I’ll finish watching and see.

Speaking from my own experience, I don’t see how 30° works very well. The only thing I can guess that particular listener likes the “wall of sound”. I have heard systems like that and it’s not as immersive, and imaging is not nearly as precise.
Atmos is successful(bad soundtracks not withstanding) when there is enough angular separation between the bed and height layers. That ensures good vertical sound, AND more importantly the ability to phantom image between bed and height placing objects into the room. A single pair above your mains can’t do that. Four heights all the way to the front and back wall in a longish room won’t allow good phantom imaging between the front and rear pair, and panning will be left with a hole in the middle top of the room. Your room is tough with a really low ceiling. I usually advocate for IC tops, but imo side heights are a good second option. Dolby Atmos enabled need not apply lol. Unless that’s the only option.
FWIW I do have four tops in my ceiling and it’s been great.
Have you seen any of the installation guides like this one?

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

There are more but this is better at least than the one on Dolby’s site currently.