Adding HDMI sources to HI-Fi (converting HDMI to S/PDIF)

[Marin]

My setup: Yamaha A-S500, Dali Zensor 1, Bowers & wilkins ASW610, Denon DA-300, and Panasonic Viera E30.
Hello I'm first and foremost audiophile, a music fan, but occasionally I enjoy good movie or video game, I have PC (Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D optical out 96k/24bit) and PS2 Connected to DAC via active (powered) toslink switch.
I want add a few HDMI sources (PS3, WiiU, and maybe PS4, they are all 48k/16bit) to setup without dealing with multiple toslink cables, (WiiU doesn't even have digital audio out, only HDMI) and my toslink switch has only 2 ports free; My question is how do I convert HDMI to S/PDIF, will my TV digital optical audio out be usable (when I say "usable" I mean lossless) or do I need HDMI switch with S/PDIF pass-thru, or some other solution?

 

[TLS Guy]

My setup: Yamaha A-S500, Dali Zensor 1, Bowers & wilkins ASW610, Denon DA-300, and Panasonic Viera E30.
Hello I'm first and foremost audiophile, a music fan, but occasionally I enjoy good movie or video game, I have PC (Creative Sound Blaster Recon3D optical out 96k/24bit) and PS2 Connected to DAC via active (powered) toslink switch.
I want add a few HDMI sources (PS3, WiiU, and maybe PS4, they are all 48k/16bit) to setup without dealing with multiple toslink cables, (WiiU doesn't even have digital audio out, only HDMI) and my toslink switch has only 2 ports free; My question is how do I convert HDMI to S/PDIF, will my TV digital optical audio out be usable (when I say "usable" I mean lossless) or do I need HDMI switch with S/PDIF pass-thru, or some other solution?

It is against the law to convert HDMI to SPDIF as you want to do. Yes, your TV does have a digital out either TOSLINK or coax usually. Some TVs have no audio out. The output from that source is lossy. The SPDIF specs do not allow for DTS Master Audio or Dolby True HD transmission.

The very basic rules of HDMI HDCP, is that for an end device such as a TV there has to be one initial handshake between the units before the signal is allowed to pass. For units that receive and send HDMI then there has to be a handshake every 5 seconds. This is called repeater architecture. For the new HDMI 2.2 for 4K picture the handshake is apparently every 5 msec, which I expect to cause no end of trouble.

Your only practical solution is to get a receiver or pre/pro with good HDMI functionality to be the nerve center of your system control.

I'm a music fan also, but I have really got to like a picture with my music. I have not put on an opera for ages without being able to see the action. I love sites like the BPO Digital Concert Hall and Medici TV.

It is time to face the fact we are passed the analog sunset and the forcing of HDMI and associated HDCP codes continues apace and will not stop. Bottom line you will be able to enjoy music and AV less and less as time goes by without HDMI functionality. That is the state of play.

 

[Marin]

HDCP is easily dealt with HDCP stripper, and I'm not interested in any of DTS or Dolby formats, source decodes them to pcm stereo before they hit the cable, I want to extract pcm stream from HDMI and pump it to the dac (optical or coax).

 

[Latent]

I don't think I agree with you TLS. If the source devices are set to stereo PCM output mode and you don't want any multichannel sources then a TV will do a fine job of converting the simple PCM sound from the source out via optical S/PDIF. About as good a job as one of thoes dedicated HDMI audio splitter devices anyway. When you set your TV to optical output mode only you will notice it disables all other sound DSP options. If you do want to listen to a Bluray with 7.1 Dobly TrueHD audio encoding you can set the source device to downconvert to 2 channel PCM and you should be fine but you will be losing some quality and channels obviously. If you later on wanted to move to a full 5.1 setup then yes you would ideally need a HDMI switching AVR to do it properly. However most source devices will convert to bitstream based dolby/dts 5.1 siginals which are fine over S/PDIF and the loss in quality is only an issue with a very good setup which means an older AVR may still be practical for some. HDCP 2.2 is a bit of a pain but it mainly effects 4k which is pointless for 95% of peoples watching environments to make it a pointless thing to be too worried about. also If you can afford a new 4k TV, 4k sources and 4k content then you can afford a new AVR as well.

 

[Marin]

I don't think I agree with you TLS. If the source devices are set to stereo PCM output mode and you don't want any multichannel sources then a TV will do a fine job of converting the simple PCM sound from the source out via optical S/PDIF. About as good a job as one of thoes dedicated HDMI audio splitter devices anyway. When you set your TV to optical output mode only you will notice it disables all other sound DSP options. If you do want to listen to a Bluray with 7.1 Dobly TrueHD audio encoding you can set the source device to downconvert to 2 channel PCM and you should be fine but you will be losing some quality and channels obviously. If you later on wanted to move to a full 5.1 setup then yes you would ideally need a HDMI switching AVR to do it properly. However most source devices will convert to bitstream based dolby/dts 5.1 siginals which are fine over S/PDIF and the loss in quality is only an issue with a very good setup. HDCP 2.2 is a bit of a pain but it mainly effects 4k which is pointless for 95% of peoples watching environments to make it a pointless thing to be too worried about. also If you can afford a new 4k TV, 4k sources and 4k content then you can afford a new AVR as well.

THANK YOU.
If I upgrade my system it it will be better stereo, like I said music is most important to me, and I don't see any point of upgrading to 5.1 when I can get a better stereo.

 

[Latent]

Even though you just want stereo some of the best at stereo systems are in fact AVR's even though it is kind of counter intuitive. They can have very good DAC's built in and make HDMI switching so much easier as well and work very well in pure direct stereo mode. Many higher end units also have great 2.1 stereo plus sub analog and digital processing options which are in some ways better than what a classic stereo only unit will do. As TLS Guy was hinting at the reasons to stick with analog stereo are getting fewer and fewer especially in a world where ALL sources are digital now.

There are always going to be people who stick with their analog stereo systems but it is becoming more and more a decision you make with your heart and not your head.

 

[Marin]

Even though you just want stereo some of the best at stereo systems are in fact AVR's even though it is kind of counter intuitive. They can have very good DAC's built in and make HDMI switching so much easier as well and work very well in pure direct stereo mode. Many higher end units also have great 2.1 stereo plus sub analog and digital processing options which are in some ways better than what a classic stereo only unit will do. As TLS Guy was hinting at the reasons to stick with analog stereo are getting fewer and fewer especially in a world where ALL sources are digital now.

There are always going to be people who stick with their analog stereo systems but it is becoming more and more a decision you make with your heart and not your head.

Yeah maybe, but I haven't heard AVR that sounds better then stereo amp/pre amp or int. amp in same price range, beside there is something special about busting out measuring mic and tweaking subwoofer knobs
BTW the fact that I don't have to buy anything except single toslink and a couple HDMI cables makes me really happy, any recommendations for not too expensive, good looking preferably braided HDMI cables, since they are going to be visible?

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't think I agree with you TLS. If the source devices are set to stereo PCM output mode and you don't want any multichannel sources then a TV will do a fine job of converting the simple PCM sound from the source out via optical S/PDIF. About as good a job as one of thoes dedicated HDMI audio splitter devices anyway. When you set your TV to optical output mode only you will notice it disables all other sound DSP options. If you do want to listen to a Bluray with 7.1 Dobly TrueHD audio encoding you can set the source device to downconvert to 2 channel PCM and you should be fine but you will be losing some quality and channels obviously. If you later on wanted to move to a full 5.1 setup then yes you would ideally need a HDMI switching AVR to do it properly. However most source devices will convert to bitstream based dolby/dts 5.1 siginals which are fine over S/PDIF and the loss in quality is only an issue with a very good setup which means an older AVR may still be practical for some. HDCP 2.2 is a bit of a pain but it mainly effects 4k which is pointless for 95% of peoples watching environments to make it a pointless thing to be too worried about. also If you can afford a new 4k TV, 4k sources and 4k content then you can afford a new AVR as well.

I never said it would not decode to two channel PCM loss less. It will not decode to multi channel loss less.

By the way HDCP code strippers are illegal.

 

[Marin]

So is removing region locks with anydvd hd, riping audio CDs and SACDs to FLAC, it is bulshit and it wont stop me.

 

[Marin]

Also truck RIAA and MPAA

 

[TLS Guy]

So is removing region locks with anydvd hd, riping audio CDs and SACDs to FLAC, it is bulshit and it wont stop me.

Please understand that on a public forum like this we can not advocate breaking the law. In any event it is against forum rules.

Also I would question the wisdom of proclaiming your law breaking on a public forum, user names not withstanding. Just FYI.

 

[Marin]

Official Audioholics stance on this, argument done period.

 

[-Jim-]

Please understand that on a public forum like this we can not advocate breaking the law. In any event it is against forum rules.

Also I would question the wisdom of proclaiming your law breaking on a public forum, user names not withstanding. Just FYI.

TLS,

Please enlighten me. I know doing this type of conversion is against the HDMI Specification, but Illegal? If so in which countries?

A lot of folks think the HDMI spec was developed for consumer convenience (single cable Video & Audio connections) but the reality it was a method to control copyright, and prevent digital duplication of material. All of the major OEMs and Media Publishers are on board of course. For me I rather buy the BluRay than copy it, but it certainly hurts flexibility in connections to older equipment, and practically forces one to toss out good equipment just to get the HDMI inputs. I've got 2 BluRay players with only HDMI outputs and now 2 Receivers just so I could play the non-lossy soundtracks. All this really is just another way to take more $$ from the consumer. Not playing fair in my rulebook.

 

[Latent]

Removing hdcp encryption is only illegal in countries that have a law against any attempt to bypass encryption like the dcma law in the US. Some other countries have also been asked to introduce their own equivalent law but it varies by country obviously.

This dcma law means that even if you have legal rights to use or view the copy righted content it is still illegal to bypass the protection mechanism to do it. But in practice there is no practical situation where anyone would prosecute such a 'crime' if you are not doing anything else illegal like copying the media you don't own for example.

In most contries it is just illegal to make copies and bypassing hdcp is irrelevent.

For most people hdcp is not a big issue but those in edge cases it can be a right pain obviously. The new hdcp 2.2 could be an even bigger pain going forward but the extent and scale of the issues we will face have yet to be fully understood. Let's pray the worst fears will not be realised...