A/V Recievers

[Boscoe]

OK I'm currently doing intense research on a new A/V receiver. The Denon 4311CI, Onkyo TXNR5008, and the Yammy3000. Would like to know if anyone has compared these units? Got some time not going to jump in too soon. Heard about some quality issues with Denon. Just want to make the right choice.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Denon is one of the last companies that I would consider having 'some quality issues'. They may have some firmware issues with advanced features, but generally they have one of the most well built amplification and audio sections of any product on the market.

Onkyo I think is the weakest brand by far. Lots of features, weak on engineering and quality control.

Yamaha has always been a pretty solid brand. But, their amplifier section has never been as strong as the amplifier section of Denon. They offer a nice balance of quality and features for the money. I've had no complaints at all about my Yamaha Z1 which is more than a few years dated at this point.

Still, if I were to buy one of those three, I would get the Denon for pure audio quality and from my prior experience with the quality that Denon has delivered.

 

[jostenmeat]

For me, it would either be the 4311 or the 5008, because if I ever upgrade my processor, it will have at least the level of MultEQ XT32. Then it becomes a matter or price point for me. If the Denon is close enough to the Onkyo, and that the 3rd party specs that have a chance of being audible are close enough, I'd probably finally jump the Onkyo ship to try a Denon processor for the first time. That said, I'm on my second Onkyo, and even my old one I gave to my brother is still working.

Yamaha OTOH is known to have a clean signal. They used to offer pretty good amp sections AFAIK, but then started short changing the entry level models, but all* the brands did, and it's possibly Denon that was the greatest offender of the three in this regard. Alas, we are not talking entry level here.

 

[dapack69]

Onkyo I think is the weakest brand by far. Lots of features, weak on engineering and quality control.

Can you please expand on this please.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Can you please expand on this please.

Onkyo offers a lot of product for the money, but they work in a similar fashion to what Samsung often does. They go "MORE MORE MORE!!!" but they never sit down and ensure that the pieces they are using in their product are fully developed and tested to ensure long reliability and build quality.

So, I have heard, and seen, higher levels of failure from Onkyo and Integra products than about any other manufacturer. They have more issues with HDCP than some other manufacturers, and their receivers are known to run hot. This doesn't mean that they will fail, but it means that they are more susceptable to heat related failures than other product out there.

I've also personally had issue with Onkyo where they've shipped product they knew was buggy, and when I actually called them up about how to fix it, they said they were not going to fix it in the current model. So, a feature which was advertised was not actually usable and they didn't care enough to either remove the advertising, let consumers know, or come up with a fix.

Now, it doesn't mean that their product will fail, but I would expect there are some very satisfied Yugo owners as well. I'm just not about to recommend that someone spend their hard earned cash on a brand which has shown they don't have a higher level of engineering quality in their product.

On the flip side, Denon typically doesn't come with a bunch of extras for the money, but their stuff typically just works. They focus on the A/V receiver portion first, ensure high quality components go into the box, and test their product thoroughly. The amplifier section is well regarded for it's robustness, and they offer features such as bypass modes which shut down non-essential portions of the receiver to cut down on noise going into the system.

I don't HATE Onkyo, but they aren't my first recommendation. At the entry level, I think they offer some of the most bang-for-the-buck product available and it works sufficiently well for most people, and doesn't have enough bugs to really cause headaches for most.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Can you please expand on this please.

It's tough to do so thoroughly because people own a lot of different brands and become defensive.

I mentioned in another thread that throughout my 11 years of experience I have generally found Yamaha to have the weakest offering of the major receiver brands (the OP had asked for a choice between a few brands/models and Yamaha was one of them). Another member (NOT the OP) came across my post and became obviously offended. I did a little research and he, of course, is a prideful Yamaha owner. His statements asking for my explanations were so much filled with pride of ownership and fanboyism that I didn't feel like I could respond to him honestly without offending his purchase choice and system.

I think that to start picking apart products and brands in a thread would just start a flame war that would end with a lot of hurt feelings.

For what it's worth, we deal in Onkyo products and have for 11 years. For around the $500-$600 price point I think their receiver models are great. Above that we always spec in Pioneer Elite or Denon. Some brands are better built than others and tend to be less fragile. And while I have seen all receiver brands fail at some point or another, I would agree with BMX that Onkyo tends to cut corners on some things.

Build quality is not a logo that can be stamped on the front of a product, or something that can be shown on a "fact tag" for consumers to compare. It's just not a sexy topic in a store environment so some manufacturers focus their production $ on features instead. What’s the old spinoff from the engineering triangle? Something like: Price, Quality, Service…. You can pick any 2.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Onkyo offers a lot of product for the money, but they work in a similar fashion to what Samsung often does. They go "MORE MORE MORE!!!" but they never sit down and ensure that the pieces they are using in their product are fully developed and tested to ensure long reliability and build quality.

So, I have heard, and seen, higher levels of failure from Onkyo and Integra products than about any other manufacturer. They have more issues with HDCP than some other manufacturers, and their receivers are known to run hot. This doesn't mean that they will fail, but it means that they are more susceptable to heat related failures than other product out there.

I've also personally had issue with Onkyo where they've shipped product they knew was buggy, and when I actually called them up about how to fix it, they said they were not going to fix it in the current model. So, a feature which was advertised was not actually usable and they didn't care enough to either remove the advertising, let consumers know, or come up with a fix.

Now, it doesn't mean that their product will fail, but I would expect there are some very satisfied Yugo owners as well. I'm just not about to recommend that someone spend their hard earned cash on a brand which has shown they don't have a higher level of engineering quality in their product.

On the flip side, Denon typically doesn't come with a bunch of extras for the money, but their stuff typically just works. They focus on the A/V receiver portion first, ensure high quality components go into the box, and test their product thoroughly. The amplifier section is well regarded for it's robustness, and they offer features such as bypass modes which shut down non-essential portions of the receiver to cut down on noise going into the system.

I don't HATE Onkyo, but they aren't my first recommendation. At the entry level, I think they offer some of the most bang-for-the-buck product available and it works sufficiently well for most people, and doesn't have enough bugs to really cause headaches for most.

Last year when evaluating our receiver lines (which I do every 6 moths/year) I asked for stock reports from Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon/Marantz, and Pioneer Reps.

Guess who had the most B stocks and highest return %?

Yamaha followed closely by Onkyo/Integra. This did NOT include retail big box shops. This was from the direct custom install chain and CI distribution. In fairness, everyone was under 3% but the top two were considerably higher.

 

[highfigh]

What’s the old spinoff from the engineering triangle? Something like: Price, Quality, Service…. You can pick any 2.

That's similar to the Contractor's Triangle- "You can have it done well, fast, or cheap- pick two, because you can't get all three".

 

[highfigh]

Last year when evaluating our receiver lines (which I do every 6 moths/year) I asked for stock reports from Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon/Marantz, and Pioneer Reps.

Guess who had the most B stocks and highest return %?

Yamaha followed closely by Onkyo/Integra. This did NOT include retail big box shops. This was from the direct custom install chain and CI distribution. In fairness, everyone was under 3% but the top two were considerably higher.

Have you checked back with Onkyo? One of my reps told me that they haven't had as many problems in the last year to year and a half.

I still like Denon and prefer to sell the brands that A) sound/operate the way I like, B) are most reliable and C) I don't want to sell another brand only occasionally and then scramble to remember how its setup differs from the ones I know well. I know it's just a matter of going through the menu but all brands have tricks and idiosyncracies that make setup take longer if it's the first one, or the first one in a long time.

 

[InTheIndustry]

That's similar to the Contractor's Triangle- "You can have it done well, fast, or cheap- pick two, because you can't get all three".

That's a good one, too.

It all spins off of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_triangle

 

[InTheIndustry]

OK I'm currently doing intense research on a new A/V receiver. The Denon 4311CI, Onkyo TXNR5008, and the Yammy3000. Would like to know if anyone has compared these units? Got some time not going to jump in too soon. Heard about some quality issues with Denon. Just want to make the right choice.

I would like to throw in the Pioneer Elite SC-37. It's a great product that is built incredibly well. We've used these on two larger BG systems and they perform flawlessly. A solid, top shelf performer.

I like this over the Denon 4311CI, which we are also dealers of. Either way you'll end up with an awesome receiver.

Here's a link to the Elite: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/AV-Receivers/Elite+Receivers/SC-37

 

[InTheIndustry]

Have you checked back with Onkyo? One of my reps told me that they haven't had as many problems in the last year to year and a half.

I still like Denon and prefer to sell the brands that A) sound/operate the way I like, B) are most reliable and C) I don't want to sell another brand only occasionally and then scramble to remember how its setup differs from the ones I know well. I know it's just a matter of going through the menu but all brands have tricks and idiosyncracies that make setup take longer if it's the first one, or the first one in a long time.

- Ask him for a stock report and see if they'll list for you their B-stocks. Also, check with your distributors and see if they'll give you the same or talk about returns.

- The only ones that I find goofy or quirky are the Yamahas because of the lack of consistency. The one thing that frustrates me across the board are the factory presets between the brands. Someone needs to define the word "Auto" for these manufacturers.

The most irritating thing with Onkyo/Integra is their propensity to be reset to factory either by being unplugged for even short periods of time, after even a minor power surge, or just by random. There are other issues that I have found more common in Onkyos than others over the years as well. On the plus side, they are the easiest to set up and go through. Unfortunately, I get service calls on them to do so because they reset or lose settings. With the other brands I never get calls like that on.

The Onkyos are just over all more fragile.

 

[BMXTRIX]

...
The Onkyos are just over all more fragile.

Thanks for the more involved report of what my experience has led me to see online. Even people that are visiting forums regularly seem to have more issues with Onkyo and they are the type of people that are willing to dive in and fix things themselves.

It's not a 'this brand sucks' thing - I mean, we aren't talking about Bose here.

Yamaha kind of suprises me, but I got their Z1 and I'm not sure if their higher end stuff is built better, but I've always thought of Pioneer and Yamaha, at about $1,000 deliver a pretty similar, and reliable product. But, I'm happy to be wrong on that one if that's the case.

Denon just keeps giving similar results when I hear from people and read the reviews... They are often a bit slower to the uptake on new features, but at the base level, A/V receiver, it's a solid product. Well built, reliable, lacking in extras.

Still, I would be interested in trying some Emotiva gear.

 

[jostenmeat]

Denon just keeps giving similar results when I hear from people and read the reviews... They are often a bit slower to the uptake on new features, but at the base level, A/V receiver, it's a solid product. Well built, reliable, lacking in extras.

That's not my impression at all. Though I might agree if you said Marantz instead. What kept me away from Denon was that for what I deemed to be the comparable model with Onkyo, the price was near double. So, perhaps my failure rate doubles from 1% to 2% or perhaps even triple, but it's something I was willing to risk with the several hundred dollars in my pocket. It's been a few years, she's still going strong, and TBH, I wouldn't have been surprised if it was already replaced (but it's still there). My outlook on processors is that they are going to be the quickest thing to be superceded in a full blown dedicated HT.

You guys should know that some of the fanciest theaters to ever grace these boards are using Onkyo/Integra processors.

Still, I would be interested in trying some Emotiva gear.

Their prepro would cause me, by far, the most fear and uncertainty, by orders of magnitude over anything Onkyo or Integra makes as far as processors.

 

[dapack69]

I would like to thank everyone on their opinion on Onkyo. I'm not going to flame anyone or get into a pissing match. I just asked for an explanation and got it.

I love Onkyo for the past 16 years as I have never had anything else and have never had a problem with them. I have friends that love Denon, Pioneer, HK, and Yamaha and they are all great company's. If they weren't, they would be out of business by now.

 

[3db]

Last year when evaluating our receiver lines (which I do every 6 moths/year) I asked for stock reports from Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon/Marantz, and Pioneer Reps.

Guess who had the most B stocks and highest return %?

Yamaha followed closely by Onkyo/Integra. This did NOT include retail big box shops. This was from the direct custom install chain and CI distribution. In fairness, everyone was under 3% but the top two were considerably higher.

Was it more their entry level lines as well as their dreadful 1065/2065 series?

How does this compare to this year? How did it comapre to say 5 years ago? Every manufacturer can have a bad year.

I avoided Denon here in Canada because they are much more expensive than a comparable equipped Denon. Its as if, Denon was marketed as an upscale brand. I have no idea why they do that.

I'm leary of Onkyo from a thermal breakdown point of view. I've seen many complaints about them in this vain.