a Q for experts

[ice cube]

I have a pair of CM9, a pair of CM5 and CM2. SUB JAMO660 (5.1) Denon 4520Ci, Room size (4x4) Mete not Feet. What is the benefit of having Processor + Amp and AVReciever in my room. If the amp is going to add more watt >> in my opinion I don't want extra watt but if the Processor + Amp will give clarity , detailed sound or warmth I would have Processor + Amp but if it is just an extra watt I don't need them just Denon 4520Ci is enough correct me please. if will say take Processor + Amp (what do you recommend) Nad pre + ATi Amp or Rotel pre + Ati amp or any thing else I appreciate your help Bye Bye

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Is the room exactly square? If so - no much you can do to improve it. This shape is terrible for acoustics. Room treatment might be able to help you somewhat. New electronics won't

 

[KEW]

The Denon 4520CI has all of the power you need. Just make sure it is well ventilated.

It also has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which is the best Audyssey consumer product and especially useful integrating your sub with the speakers.
I don't know what the NAD and Rotel pre's offer in the way of EQ.

If you had power hog speakers, separate amps make sense, and some people with moderately efficient speakers in larger rooms add separates just to make sure they are covered.
However, your CM9s are at 92.5 which is pretty efficient, and with your (approximately) 12'X12' room you will never get close to maxing out the volume on the Denon (assuming you are sane).

The Denon produces clean power with low noise and flat FR. As long as it is functioning properly and you are not driving it beyond it ability (and you wouldn't with your situation) you should not expect to hear an improvement with a separate amp.
Additionally, I would considser the 4520 as a good option to use for a preamp even if you were using seperates. It has pre-amp outputs and is very competitive with separate pre-amps.

 

[ice cube]

Thank you very much ..

But if I want to go with separates many people said that you will just notice 8% than Denon. Correct me please....

 

[KEW]

you will just notice 8% than Denon.

I don't understand what this means!

 

[ice cube]

Sorry my Eng is not good...

What I mean is ... If I want to change the resiever. And bring pre pro and amp ... Will I say WOW.

 

[GIEGAR]

What is the benefit of having Processor + Amp and AVReciever in my room.

There is no benefit if you don't need an amp with more power than the Denon can deliver.

There is a significant disadvantage though: you will have spent money on components that make no actual difference to sound quality instead of things that will make a real improvements to sound quality - better quality speakers and subs. (Yours are fine, but there's always better.)

but if the Processor + Amp will give clarity , detailed sound or warmth I would have Processor + Amp

They won't give you any of that just by being separate components. The measured differences (if any) between AVR's and separate components across important metrics such as frequency response, signal to noise ratio and distortion are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands times below what humans can reliably discern. The descriptors above are purely subjective and, quite handilty, can't be directly measured.

But if I want to go with separates many people said that you will just notice 8% than Denon. Correct me please....

Many people with brand-new gear carry out sighted, non level-matched, casual "listening sessions" that are subject to sighted biases. We are all prone to sighted biases and one of the main ones is confirmation bias. Subjective impressions from these listening sessions are then reported as fact.

If you're itching for an upgrade, I'd look at getting a second matching Jamo sub, or something of similar capability like the SVS SB-1000.

(Not quite sure what you mean by: just notice 8% than Denon.)

 

[GIEGAR]

Sorry my Eng is not good...

What I mean is ... If I want to change the resiever. And bring pre pro and amp ... Will I say WOW.

Probably.

The thrill of new ownership and your expectations will almost guarantee you have a good initial experience with the components. But when the "honeymoon" is over, your conclusion might well be: WOW, I've wasted my money!

 

[ice cube]

Thank you all .. I like what you have said...

 

[Steve Pitbull Potenziano]

If you want to add extra power to your system get the Emotiva 2chan amp to power the front towers. You will see a benefit of better overall sound to your system plus more clean power to the rest of your system.

 

[KEW]

If you want to add extra power to your system get the Emotiva 2chan amp to power the front towers. You will see a benefit of better overall sound to your system plus more clean power to the rest of your system.

Why would you make such a ridiculous statement?

Have you looked at the size of his room and the efficiency of his speakers?

Emotive amps are fine gear, but if he doesn't need the power he has, why would you advise him to waste money more power?

The AVR-4520 has a 9 channel amp section that tests out at 122 watts per channel at 0.1% distortion with 5 channels driven continuously. 173 Watts per channel with two channels driven continuously.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4520ci-av-receiver-test-bench

If he had inefficient speakers and/or a humongous room, this thread would have gone a totally different direction.

Here is a calculator which may help you understand the variables that effect power requirements.
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Here are guidelines on how to lose your hearing:
http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/education/information-center/decibel-exposure-time-guidelines/

For his situation and assuming he sits 9' (~3 meters) back with 5 speakers at 122 Watts, He gets 114dB in his room. That is permanent hearing damage territory.

PS- For the above calculations I assumed the speaker was near a wall (within 4' or 1.3 meters) because in a room with a dimension of 12', I would not expect someone to pull the speakers more than 4' from the wall.

 

[PENG]

in my opinion I don't want extra watt but if the Processor + Amp will give clarity , detailed sound or warmth I would have Processor + Amp but if it is just an extra watt I don't need them just Denon 4520Ci is enough correct me please.

I have no experience with the 4520 but I do have experience with the Denon 3805, 1912 and 4308. I typically listen to sound pressure level of around 70 to 75 dB average with peaks to 85 to 90 dB; and the amps will only need to produce no more than 0.25W average per channel with peaks up to maybe 30W max per channel for my speakers when listening to 2 channel music. I find that at such low level output, the Denon receivers sound pretty much as good as my separate systems.

My educated guess is that base on your stated opinion, there is no need to correct you because you are already correct.

 

[Steve Pitbull Potenziano]

The fact that I Did see his room Specs ect. AND I do know that amp well ,My opinion is just that . LOL I don't need your Calc my man. Trust me you under estimate my knowledge on this I was giving him a extra option. So be for you talk down to me realize whom you are talking down to.

 

[ice cube]

Thank you all .... Don't angry at each other please .. Here we are like brothers .. Everyone tries to give just his opinion ... That is all ..
Thank you again for not spending my money.
My English is sick

 

[GIEGAR]

The fact that I Did see his room Specs ect. AND I do know that amp well ,My opinion is just that . LOL I don't need your Calc my man. Trust me you under estimate my knowledge on this I was giving him a extra option. So be for you talk down to me realize whom you are talking down to.

Steve, you stated your opinion as fact...

... You will see a benefit of better overall sound to your system plus more clean power to the rest of your system.

... which is what I alluded to up in post #7.

Dollars/watt the Emotiva amps are good solid value. But, their potential to generate more power will not in itself make any real difference to sound quality when the Denon 4520CI is capable of generating more than enough clean power in the OP's particular situation.

FWIW, here is a post from earlier that attempts to show what the Denon 4520CI is capable of, based on the manufacturer's specs: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/emp-speaker-question.92238/#post-1054914. From the link KEW posted above, it appears that the 4520CI handily exceeded Denon's claimed power output.

 

[GIEGAR]

Thank you all .... Don't angry at each other please .. Here we are like brothers .. Everyone tries to give just his opinion ... That is all ..
Thank you again for not spending my money.
My English is sick

Ice, your English is 100% better than my second language... I don't have one! More importantly, your reading comprehension is spot on.

You have a top notch, flagship AVR and a very capable set of speakers in a fairly small room. In your situation, AV "separates" and/or power amps will be about as useful as shakti stones and cable elevators. The only obvious worthwhile improvement is a second identical sub (or close to it) to take full advantage of Audyssey XT32's SubEQ HT, smooth out your bass response a bit and give the subs more headroom.

In a (closed?) 4m X 4m room, you are likely to have some severe dips in your response at multiples of 43Hz (43, 86, 130, 173Hz etc.) due to common length and width room modes. So, if you have some flexibility in sub placement and perhaps the freedom to apply some acoustic treatments to the room, I would look into an acoustic measurement system. If you're in Europe, this one from XTZ should be readily available: http://shop.xtzsound.eu/shop/eu/measuring-systems/xtz-room-analyzer-ii-pro.

Good luck!

 

[ice cube]

Totally convienced.....
Before buying CM9 I listened to CM8 powered by Rotel integrated amp.. It was unbelievable the sound was clean detailed and warm.
I didn't find like this sound with my speaker. So if I have the new Denon 7200 or the nwe Marantz or Rotel with Ati amps ... Is there any chance to find the detailed sound and warmth music.
I don't have a CD player from Rotel.. And Oppo105 ...

 

[PENG]

Totally convienced.....
Before buying CM9 I listened to CM8 powered by Rotel integrated amp.. It was unbelievable the sound was clean detailed and warm.
I didn't find like this sound with my speaker. So if I have the new Denon 7200 or the nwe Marantz or Rotel with Ati amps ... Is there any chance to find the detailed sound and warmth music.
I don't have a CD player from Rotel.. And Oppo105 ...

Anything is possible! Did you run Audyssey and if you did, did you follow the instructions from their website? If you did everything right and still find the sound not to your taste, then it is also possible that:

1) you prefer what you described as "warmth" that could mean you do not prefer the perhaps more accurate frequency response Audyssey aimed to achieve in your particular room.
2) As GIEGAR alluded to, your "square" shaped room could also be the culprit. Even Audyssey cannot fix the standing wave related issues, so you could be having dips in certain bass frequencies that could otherwise have offered you that warm feeling.
3) When you listened to the CM8 powered by a Rotel amp, it maybe in a different room right? If so, then that could be the main reason why it sounded different to what you are hearing now in your room.
4) Any combinations of the above, and there could also be other reasons.

All of the above are also based on you telling us you did not think not enough power is the problem for what you need and I therefore also assume you are not using the Denon any where near what it is capable of in terms of power output. If that is not true, then it is also possible that the 4520 is under powered for you setup and listening environment/habits, but there is highly likely, again base on what you have described to us so far.

Did you try turning on Dynamic EQ? If not you should try it. In fact you should try pure direct, direct, dynamic EQ, Audyssey flat etc., but I would suggest you leave Dynamic volume "OFF".

 

[herbu]

Trust me you under estimate my knowledge on this... So before you talk down to me realize whom you are talking down to.

So, Pitbull, please tell us. Maybe I missed an introduction somewhere. To me, you just kind of showed up, got a title that seems to indicate a professional relationship w/ Audioholics, and immediately began posting as an "authority".

I'm curious. What is your background and what authority do you command? You gotta admit that, "realize whom you are talking down to", intimates you think pretty highly of yourself... (in spite of the incorrect grammar).

 

[Steve Pitbull Potenziano]

That my friend is not up for me to discuss I only gave my opinion and was called on it. I'm here to bring you new info on Amps AVRs and such, and give my opinion and maybe stir up a little action in the forums which I have done .Job accomplished