A Do-It-Yourself Speaker Design

Jaycan

Jaycan

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>A very enjoyable read, indeed. Kudos to what obviously was a fun project. It must be tremendously satisfying to hear your music come alive through your own creation. This is probably my favorite topic in audio: time coherent speakers. This concept has been ignored by all major speaker manufacturers, save 4. They will say that average listeners are unable to reliably tell the difference in A/B comparisons. Well, YOUR ears told you the difference. That expansive soundstage you described is precisely the result of physically offsetting the tweeter and sub voice coils so that the listener perceives an exact replication at the level of his ears, of the signal that was fed to the speakers. A vertical baffle can NEVER accomplish this, since the sound from the woofers/midrange arrives after the signal from the tweeter, and so if you you do not own Vandy, Thiel, Dunlavy, or Meadowlark, what you are hearing is not an exact replica of what your source produced.
Regarding the lack of punch on the bottom end- your design is a perfect setup for transmission line bass loading which would stiffen and deepen your bass considerably, but this in itself is a very complicated subject.
Great stuff!

[Edited:clarification]</font>
 
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Jaycan : <font color='#000000'>so if you you do not own Vandy, Thiel, Dunlavy, or Meadowlark, what you are hearing is not an exact replica of what your source produced.
[Edited:clarification]</font>
<font color='#0000FF'>WOW! I guess this puts us unfortunates out of contention for the quest for true sound. All we have been hearing till today is deception.Far from truth.
</font>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jaycan

Jaycan

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All we have been hearing till today is deception. Far from truth.</td></tr></table>
Well Yammyluver, the issue is not about deception, rather fidelity to the source signal. If you overlay the waveforms produced by all the speakers in a baffle, the sound will most closely match the source signal when you have a perfect frquency overlap. When speaker baffles are aligned vertically, as in the vast majority of designs, then the radiating surface of the tweeter is actually positioned anterior to the other speakers, just by virtue of the physical dimensions of the drivers. This causes the hi freq sound to arrive to the sweet spot before the lower frequencies. I should have stated in my previous post that you can compensate for this by tilting the entire enclosure backwards, however, this isn't as effective as when the speaker design accounts for this phenomenon. It is unfortunate that this design is available only in expensive speakers, even though Meadowlark now has affordable, entry level systems (Swift and Kestrel 2). If all you have ever heard is time misaligned speakers, then it probably is not a big deal. What has been documented however is that time coherent enclosures produce a sound that rivals speakers costing 3-4 times as much.</font>
 
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
<font color='#0000FF'>Well I have had the chance to audition the Meadowlark, the model in this case was the Heron and to me it didnt sound anything special and at $6500 I knew several speakers that could better it at way less price and the person whose Meadowlarks I auditioned sold them for a much cheaper brand. Snell I recall did a paper on the time coherency issue and I have had the oppurtunity to extensively audition them as well as the Vendersteens. Between them all, the Vandersteens are worth writing about but then there are speakers who dont claim to adhere to this theory sounding way better. DCM was one manufacturer who made time coherent speakers or at least claimed to as well as dbx who made vertain models with this theory in mind. There have been electronic devices from the likes of BBE claiming to correct this anomaly on speakers and even Celestion made a DSP unit claiming to do so.

In the end, as I have heard both, IMHO time coherency is another theory which is up to personal taste just like so many in this audio world, OTOH we all curse and jab booze for his direct reflecting radiating theory on his 901 series and yet that too is a valid theory to ponder.

We just cant declare the absolute in this and to some tome coherent speakers will remain the best and to others it would be the opposite route. Speaker cost has nothing to do with quality of the sound as again, sound perception is a highly personal issue.</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>Yamahaluver;

I tend to agree with you on the issue of Time Coherency.  There are definate trade offs:
1) Slanted baffle, drivers operating off axis
2) Usually most designs employ 1st or 2nd order degenerative series/parallel crossovers requiring the best drivers to be used, else power handling and distortion are out the window
3) Many Time Coherent designs suffer from poor off axis response and/or verticle dispersion

It's not to say you can't make a great sounding speaker Time Coherent, but I think it is a bit tricky.  Also, Time Coherence is great for one microphone position.  What happens when you are not sitting in that sweet spot? Let's also not forget most room acoustics and source material further negate the alleged benefits of time coherent speakers.  If anything, time coherent designs usually ensure good driver selection for reason #1.
[edited: spelling]</font>
 
Jaycan

Jaycan

Audioholic
<font color='#000000'>Generally, I can't disagree with the both of you. Time coherence does kinda limit you to the sweet spot, but it works for me. You're right Yammyluver, speaker selection is probably the most subjective and emotional of all our audio components. In the end, there is probably no right/wrong choice. One thing you can't argue with is the furniture grade (not Vandys) veneers, especially Meadowlark, which the wafs tend to apreciate
</font>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
<font color='#0000FF'>Jaycan,

Gene as usual raises some really valid points on the issue of sweet spot and room acoustics. I personaly feel that proper room acoustics can make a poor speaker sound good and great speaker sound its absolute best.

Speaking of veneers, Yamaha's top of the line speakers(NS-HX, NS200/300) are made in the same factory in Indonesia where their superlative grand pianos are made and the very same veneer used in their pianos are used in their speakers.

Even the piano finish is the very same 12 layer used for their pianos. All is an in house affair, the veneer is sourced from Yamaha's Canadian plantation so it is tested for its resonance characteristics. The German Canton speakers also use veneer from their own plantation in Brazil and therefore like the Yamaha, its tuned for their speakers.</font>
 
E

EdHeath

Audiophyte
<font color='#000000'>After building speakers for a while, one learns that definitive absolute statements are virtually never valid. &nbsp;One poster says that 'time alignment' is the difference between good and great speakers, while another says that "expense' has nothing to do with good and bad sound. &nbsp;Factually, some of the most highly lauded speakers have drivers all on one plane, and the idea that one cannot build a better sounding speaker with more money is bound to come from someone with pitiable small experience in speaker design and building. &nbsp;The absolute BEST one can do with a 'sows ear', is 'suede'. &nbsp;Silk isn't in the cards. (how's that for dumping on my own principle in the same breath in which I stated it?)
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I have been rolling my own for nearly 40 years, and to my ear, the best sounding speakers do share some specific characteristics. &nbsp;A first order crossover (for smoothness and phase coherency), controlled dispersion (to eliminate the early wall reflections from the sweet spot, for midrange clarity), and good drivers that have a wide frequency band, high power handling capacity, and a wide flat spot in the FR, with a smooth & gentle rolloff on each end. &nbsp;These are all essential for a first order filter.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Dunlavy and I have many points of agreement on what makes good sounding systems. &nbsp;I am very sensitive to phase coherency, as was Dunlavy, given his concentration on it in all of his designs. &nbsp;This was his reason for offset drivers, rather than time alignment, which was a bi-product of that design.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;I prefer separate, optomized enclosures for wach driver (except low end), with the frontal area no larger than the driver frame. &nbsp;This enables complete placement flexibility, and a complete absence of baffle defraction, because of there being 'no baffle'. &nbsp;For my taste, the best bass comes from a sealed enclosure; much more controlled and taut, thereby more accurate, than ported.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;I tried for many years to compensate for mediocre drivers with the design of the enclosure and Xover. &nbsp;It can't be done, to the extent of building a great sounding system &nbsp;That requires very capable drivers, and they are not found in a bargain bin.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Building ones own has some irrefutable advantages over commercial designers. &nbsp;It need not be concerned with size, weight, time spent, and money expended trying to please everyone, and the ability to treat the listening room as part of the speaker. &nbsp;These cannot be compensated for with money, sophisticated instruments, and a roomful of engineers. &nbsp;Treating the room, drivers, enclosure, and Xover as all parts of the system &nbsp;is a design element that cannot be equaled by a 'one size fits all' design. &nbsp;There are just too many tradeoffs to put up with in the latter.
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Accurate, full range speakers are important to me because they get me more deeply into the music, and that is all that it is about. &nbsp;The speakers must accurately reproduce what the recording engineer has left for us on the medium being used. &nbsp;That is our only route to the original performance, so it should be the ultimate concern for the builder, through whatever design it leads us to. &nbsp;Any other approach becomes 'making' music, rather than reproducing the music already created by the artist at hand. &nbsp;That is a different process altogether.

&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Ed</font>
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
<font color='#000000'>I'm staying out of the time coherence debate and don't get me started on first order crossovers, but let's talk about the REAL reason for DIY since it's just us guys here, OK?

Admit it: Whether you're talking about building speakers, modding your car, woodworking or whatever all that "satisfaction" and "building a better (whatever) for less money" stuff is crap and we know it. The real reason is:

It's an excuse to buy tools!


Now if you'll excuse me, Sears is having a sale...</font>
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top