A decent A/V receiver for my parents?

[Smartass408]

Just a warning: kind of a long post and I'm new at this.

My parents just finished remodeling the main room in their house/TV room/ whatever you wanna call it. They put in hardwood floors, bought new furniture, and just had bookshelves built on either side of their fireplace.

Now they want to buy a new TV and sound system. They originally wanted to buy one of those Bose theater in a box things, but I talked them out of that and into buying their own components.

I don't know much about A/V equipment, and I've been trying to read these forums and articles for the past day or two. They're looking to spend about $1.5-2k on the sound for the room. I think the Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K receiver would be pretty good for their needs. They aren't audiophiles and will most likely be using the room every day to just watch TV, movies, sports.

This receiver has a WPC of 7x120watts @ 8 ohms (plz correct me if I'm using these terms incorrectly, lol), a THD of 0.05% a 1kHz (I couldn't find a measurement of the range though), and 4 HDMI inputs. I couldn't find measurements for Dynamic head room, signal-noise ratio, or continuous power. Do they really a pre-amp (still not totally sure what this is)?

I was wondering what your guys' thoughts on this receiver are. CNET gave it good reviews, but I would probably trust you guys more. If this is a poor choice I would be open to suggestions keeping in mind this is more of a midrange setup. Also it might be important that they only want to have something like 5.1 sound, not 7.1.

There are some problems with the room from what I can gather. There's a giant hole in one wall that leads to another room, glass doors on the other wall, and being open in the back to a kitchen/eating area. I know this will mess a lot with the acoustics, but I don't think they will care about that. I'm also looking for advice on speakers, but this probably isn't the place for that being the "Amps, Pre-Pros & Receivers" section.


Below are 2 pictures. One of the Room and another of the cabinets.

This picture is a day before it was finished and before they were stained:

Thank you guys for all your help! I'm just getting introduced to this stuff, but if any of you guys, or your kids, need help with Biochemistry, Cellular/Molecular biology, or Molecular Genetics I can definitely help you with that

Also somewhat off topic I wish that I could indent my paragraphs on this forum, lol.

 

[JerryLove]

Have you considered speakers yet? That will affect your budget. Anthing else that needs buying (do they have a source-player (BluRay, whatever)) yet?

 

[Smartass408]

Have you considered speakers yet? That will affect your budget. Anthing else that needs buying (do they have a source-player (BluRay, whatever)) yet?

I haven't looked at speakers yet, but this receiver was only about $500 so they will probably spend $1-1.2K on speakers. I realize this room is less than optimal for a "surround sound" feel, so I would think spending a little less on the back 2 speakers would be advised?

The biggest challenge I have is how they want to set this room up. They want to put the TV on the ledge of the left book shelf. So, it will probably be about 42-46in. So there's not going to be room for tall (tower?) speakers, only bookshelf speakers. My mom wants to put at them somewhere on the book shelves -.- This definitely isn't how I would do it, but it's her room and she can set it up how she wants, and I don't live there anymore, lol. I know this will be way less than optimal.

Also, my dad has this obsession with wireless speakers and was talking about me trying to get wireless rear speakers cause he doesn't want to have to drill through his bedroom floor to install wired ones on the far wall (the other side would be easy to get to through the attic).

And a center channel on that mantle over the fireplace. I was just browsing and saw a Polk CS10 for about $200 that had an impedance of 8ohms and sensitivity of 91dB.

As for a sub I'm not sure, as of now, where they would put it in the room. Or whether they should get a powered or passive sub (not really sure between the difference or what would be best for them).

As for source players my mom wants to buy a PS3, but that doesn't necessarily have to bet counted in the price for the sound system.


Thanks for the Advice.

 

[markw]

Choose your speakers first. They will determine how much power you'll need. Also, is the subwoofer in that budget?

Also, choose the right and left fronts first, preferably using music as your test criteria. When you've decided on those, select the matching center from the same manufacturer and line. The front three (R/C/L) should match.

Finally, if sound has any bearing at all on this*, don't even consider wireless speakers. They all suck, period, end of discussion. If it's that much of an issue, pay a audio pro or a building contractor to run the wires to the rears at least.

*and with that budget, it dang well should.

 

[skers_54]

Your parents' room fairly similar to the room I just helped set up at my parents'. The first things you want to do are pick speakers and make a list of features that your parents want. Once those are settled, find the lowest priced receiver that has all the features you want and can power the speakers. Used or refurb models can save you a bit of money and are quite reliable. I got my dad a Denon 590 (which he loves) because it has the features he wants and has plenty of power.

Make sure to spend a good bit on a quality subwoofer. $500 will get you one from SVS, HSU or Elemental Designs that should reach 20 Hz in moderately sized rooms. In my experience, it's better to lose a few features on the receiver in order to get a better sub.

 

[Smartass408]

Choose your speakers first. They will determine how much power you'll need. Also, is the subwoofer in that budget?

Also, choose the right and left fronts first, preferably using music as your test criteria. When you've decided on those, select the matching center from the same manufacturer and line. The front three (R/C/L) should match.

Finally, if sound has any bearing at all on this*, don't even consider wireless speakers. They all suck, period, end of discussion. If it's that much of an issue, pay a audio pro or a building contractor to run the wires to the rears at least.

*and with that budget, it dang well should.

Ok, got it. Speakers first.

Do speakers usually have a range at the wattage that's best for them?

Since the room is open in the back I plan on spending less on the 2 back speakers, is this advisable?

Would it be a good idea to build an enclosure with a front facing sub and put it in the bottom of the right cabinet? I or my friend's dad can do the carpentry work for that if it would be best.

Can I get them a decent sound out of bookshelf speakers, cause my mother will not stand for getting floor speakers?

Do R/C/L speakers have to match from the same line? Well I mean I'm sure it will physically function but say one company has a better sounding center than another and you have (for example) a polk center and klipsch L & R. Would it still sound good or would getting all 3 from the same line be the best solution over others.

What size of a sub do you think would be best for that size room? And what about placement, would putting in that bottom right cabinet be less than ideal?

Anyway, just one last question. Could you recommend some quality speaker and sub manufacturers at which to look? Of course I would never buy speakers or let my parents buy them without listening to them in person.


Thanks again!

 

[gqmagic]

For some people Bose may be the right solution (or another htib), For people who aren't to picky (parents for example), if they like the way they sound, they'll be happy for the most part.

Simple is usually better for those who don't have an interest in 'tinkering'

 

[njedpx3]

Lots of questions : I will try too give you some good answers.

First order of importance some considerations then I will answer your questions:

The most important speakers are the fronts. There are very good book shelf speakers; their only downside is because of their size they can't support good bass sounds. However a good subwoofer solves that problem.

If the HT is going to be used for movies/TVs/DVDs it is important that the center speaker matches the fronts; this means not only the same manufacturer but same series/size. The reason for this is it maintains front timbre -seamless front sound. The center speaker provides most of the dialog.

Subwoofer is next in importance because it provides the bass and lower frequency sounds. It can be a different manufacturer and can be placed various places. It is best to "walk-the-sub" and place in allowable spots to see which sounds best.

The rears and other surrounds are least important. They are used for enhancement and can be smaller and/or a different manufacturer. I would add them later but prewire now.

============
Now for your questions: ( I think I already answered some )

Ok, got it. Speakers first.

Do speakers usually have a range at the wattage that's best for them?

Yes , But I wouldn't worry about it because you are usaully well below the max and can handle the power supplied bymost receivers. The only thing to watch for, especailly for bookshelf, is that you are not approaching the maximum limits. For example if a speaker is reated having a maximum of 100 watts, It would not be good to drive it with a receiver that puts out 100 or 120 watts per channel if you plan to drive it close to maximum volme.

Since the room is open in the back I plan on spending less on the 2 back speakers, is this advisable?

Yes , spend less the surround speakers are the least important speakers.
If fact, i would add them later. Or a pair of the Cambridge Audio S30s ( mentioned below) woiuld work very well

Would it be a good idea to build an enclosure with a front facing sub and put it in the bottom of the right cabinet? I or my friend's dad can do the carpentry work for that if it would be best.

Unless you just want to hide the sub, I would not plan on doing that. It might actually interfer with the sub sound. The sub can usually be placed in the back of the room or somewhere else where it looks asthestic and is not obvious. Also good subs are pretty big and the cabinet to enclose them would be even bigger.

Can I get them a decent sound out of bookshelf speakers, cause my mother will not stand for getting floor speakers?

Absolutely. here are some recommendations.

Cambridge Audio S-30. They are small but provide excellent sound. The can be purchased for as little as $199 per pair. http://www.digitalcraze.com/Details.asp?Source=Froogle&ProductID=3969

An even better bookshelf speaker is the Mordaunt Short Mezzo 2 Bookshelf speakers for $794 per pair. http://www.wildwestelectronics.net/mezzo-2-bookshelf-speaker.html

Do R/C/L speakers have to match from the same line? Well I mean I'm sure it will physically function but say one company has a better sounding center than another and you have (for example) a polk center and klipsch L & R. Would it still sound good or would getting all 3 from the same line be the best solution over others.

Yes, the R/C/L speakers should match to maintain timbre -seamless front sound.

And yes, the absolute best match is 3 identical speakers. If you get the Cambridge Audio S30s then get a second pair and use one for the center or get a matching S50 (which is sometimes hard to find in USA).

The matching center speaker for the Mordaunt Short Mezzo 2 is the Mordaunt Short Mezzo 5 Center Channel speaker for $595 http://www.wildwestelectronics.net/mezzo-5-center-channel.html

What size of a sub do you think would be best for that size room? And what about placement, would putting in that bottom right cabinet be less than ideal?

I would get a SVS or Hsu subwoofer. The room looks to be large,so you need a fairly large sub. Rahter than getting a cheap sub,which will sound cheap, it is better to save up an get a good sub.

The SVS PB12-NSD cost$ $569 and would provide good low frequency bass sounds. http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm

The Hsu VTF-3 MK3 subwoofer costs $699-$799
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3.html

Anyway, just one last question. Could you recommend some quality speaker and sub manufacturers at which to look? Of course I would never buy speakers or let my parents buy them without listening to them in person.

Is always best to audition speakers if you can, but Cambridge Audio, Mordaunt Short, SVS and Hsu are excellent brands you can buy with confidence without auditioning.


And finally an answer to you original question. The AVR receiver. The offer by Audioholics Online is an excellent receiver which will meet your needs, the Yamaha RX-V365 Surround Receiver for $229.95
http://store.audioholics.com/product/2360/66343/yamaha-rx-v365-surround-receiver


Good Luck!

NJ

P.S. - The room looks great
Thanks again![/QUOTE]

 

[GO-NAD!]

I think you're going to have a difficult time integrating a TV and 5.1 system into that room. I have a living room with a very similar layout, fireplace, cabinetry, window, opening to dining room, etc. So, I would guess that the space is acoustically similar - meaning not great. The only advantage that I have, is that I only have a 2.1 system for music in my living room - which makes it somewhat easier to integrate.

I agree with njedpx3 regarding sub placement - don't put it in a cabinet! It's almost certain to sound terrible. Checkout the Audioholics articles to get a better understanding of subwoofer placement. If you want a subwoofer to be completely unobtrusive, you'll probably have to go in-wall. I don't get the impression that it would be a welcome option though! That is something I'm considering for my living room, but I have a lot to learn about them myself.
Oh, and don't get a passive subwoofer! They do not have their own amplifiers and good ones are meant to be powered by an amplifier separate from the receiver. Many cheap HTiB's have passive subwoofers, but you can't expect much from them. Trying to power a subwoofer from the receiver will put a tremendous load on it - inadvisable.

I have to differ with some of njedpx3's speaker recommendations though. The Mordaunt Short Mezzos and a SVS or Hsu sub will probably be outside the speaker budget. They are great speakers though.

You might want to visit Axiom Audio's website. Although I have not heard any of their products, they get universally good reviews. You could get a complete system from Axiom within your budget. There are other internet direct dealers as well. The Audioholics website has a listing of recommended dealers.

I believe the biggest problem will be to integrate the TV in an aesthically pleasing way. There may be no option, but to put it in the corner as you said, as placement above the fireplace will be too high and I don't know how the heat would affect it.

The centre channel speaker should accompany the TV, either above or below. It is where the dialog will come from. If you put the TV in the corner and the centre channel on the mantle, it'll sound like there's a ventiloquist in the room! Plus, with the two front channels on either side of the fireplace, soundtracks will be lopsided, in relation with the TV. They should be on each side of the TV. With the planned asymetrical placement of the TV, would your parents mind doing the same with the speakers?

As you seem to understand already, you have a challenge ahead of you! I think selecting the components and speakers could be the easy part. Good Luck!

 

[GO-NAD!]

Almost forgot - your original question was about the receiver! That pioneer would be fine for your parents needs.

 

[Smartass408]

You might want to visit Axiom Audio's website. Although I have not heard any of their products, they get universally good reviews. You could get a complete system from Axiom within your budget. There are other internet direct dealers as well. The Audioholics website has a listing of recommended dealers.

I checked out Axiom's website while I was at work. They look pretty good, but I plan on looking around more. My mom went to the Best Buy today to look at some speakers. I told her to take a CD and DVD with her and make a list of which sounded best to her. Whether she did or not I don't know yet.

I believe the biggest problem will be to integrate the TV in an aesthically pleasing way. There may be no option, but to put it in the corner as you said, as placement above the fireplace will be too high and I don't know how the heat would affect it.

The centre channel speaker should accompany the TV, either above or below. It is where the dialog will come from. If you put the TV in the corner and the centre channel on the mantle, it'll sound like there's a ventiloquist in the room! Plus, with the two front channels on either side of the fireplace, soundtracks will be lopsided, in relation with the TV. They should be on each side of the TV. With the planned asymetrical placement of the TV, would your parents mind doing the same with the speakers?

So you think I should put the center channel in front of the TV no matter where it is? That makes sense or else it's going to sound like the person on TV is throwing their voice. I understand what you're saying about the soundtracks being lopsided, but don't quite grasp what you mean by doing an asymmetrical placement with the speakers too. Could you or someone else possibly elaborate?

Also that fireplace has only been on I think once in 12 years, lol. So I'm not too worried about that

 

[skers_54]

I checked out Axiom's website while I was at work. They look pretty good, but I plan on looking around more. My mom went to the Best Buy today to look at some speakers. I told her to take a CD and DVD with her and make a list of which sounded best to her. Whether she did or not I don't know yet.




So you think I should put the center channel in front of the TV no matter where it is? That makes sense or else it's going to sound like the person on TV is throwing their voice. I understand what you're saying about the soundtracks being lopsided, but don't quite grasp what you mean by doing an asymmetrical placement with the speakers too. Could you or someone else possibly elaborate?

Also that fireplace has only been on I think once in 12 years, lol. So I'm not too worried about that

What you really need to do is find out what compromises your mom is willing to make in regards to speaker placement. Where you place the speakers will affect the sound as much (and possibly more) than the speakers you buy. Basically, putting good speakers in a crappy location will give you poor sound. On the other hand, putting mediocre speakers in a good location will give you much better sound. Think of it this way: You're trying to measure the production of RNA from a cell sample. One person has a high-quality extraction with large copy numbers, but uses sloppy technique to isolate the RNA. Other person has a lower qualtiy, but still good, extraction and uses excellent technique. Who's isolation is going to be better?

I highly recommend NOT putting speakers in the corner of the room or in a bookshelf from both a theoretical and personal-experience basis. The sub should not be placed in a cabinet either.

I really think you and your parents need to spend some time hammering out where the speakers can go. Your budget will allow you to buy some nice components, but you don't want to hamstring them with poor placement due to aesthetics.

 

[skers_54]

For some people Bose may be the right solution (or another htib), For people who aren't to picky (parents for example), if they like the way they sound, they'll be happy for the most part.

Simple is usually better for those who don't have an interest in 'tinkering'

That's what my parents thought until gave them my old system. Now my dad wants me to build him a Kappa Perfect sub

 

[Smartass408]

What you really need to do is find out what compromises your mom is willing to make in regards to speaker placement. Where you place the speakers will affect the sound as much (and possibly more) than the speakers you buy. Basically, putting good speakers in a crappy location will give you poor sound. On the other hand, putting mediocre speakers in a good location will give you much better sound. Think of it this way: You're trying to measure the production of RNA from a cell sample. One person has a high-quality extraction with large copy numbers, but uses sloppy technique to isolate the RNA. Other person has a lower qualtiy, but still good, extraction and uses excellent technique. Who's isolation is going to be better?

I highly recommend NOT putting speakers in the corner of the room or in a bookshelf from both a theoretical and personal-experience basis. The sub should not be placed in a cabinet either.

I really think you and your parents need to spend some time hammering out where the speakers can go. Your budget will allow you to buy some nice components, but you don't want to hamstring them with poor placement due to aesthetics.

1.) very nice analogy

2.) If it was my room I would have thought where was going to put things before I built the cabinets, lol. But my parents think that speakers can just go anywhere and sound good. I may not know a lot about speaker equipment, but I know enough about acoustics to know where she wants to put the speakers is less than optimal.

I'm not sure if she will move the speaker from the left cabinet since she already had cable run w/o telling me. Poor pre-planning for wanting sound system, but again it's her house. Where do you guys think the best place to position them would be in a perfect world? So I could tell them that.

My mom is going to some store called TheaterXtreme tomorrow that's by her house to talk to them, listen to some speakers, and see what they have. I have no idea the reputation of this store but we'll see what they tell her.

 

[fredk]

You've got a real challenge with your parents, but they may well be quite happy with less than optimal sound.

The optimal setup is always the symetrical one. Don't know if thats going to happen here.

You might want to visit Axiom Audio's website. Although I have not heard any of their products, they get universally good reviews.

Well, I have heard a number of their speakers and am quite happy with the ones I own. I think your parents would be very happy with something like the M3 as fronts, a vp100 center and QS4 surrounds. The QS speakers are some of the best surrounds in the industry.

If your mother is set on putting speakers on a shelf, you might be better off with a sealed or front ported speaker for your fronts vs. the rear ported M3.

 

[GO-NAD!]

You've got a real challenge with your parents, but they may well be quite happy with less than optimal sound.

The optimal setup is always the symetrical one. Don't know if thats going to happen here.


Well, I have heard a number of their speakers and am quite happy with the ones I own. I think your parents would be very happy with something like the M3 as fronts, a vp100 center and QS4 surrounds. The QS speakers are some of the best surrounds in the industry.

If your mother is set on putting speakers on a shelf, you might be better off with a sealed or front ported speaker for your fronts vs. the rear ported M3.

Those were the exact models I had in mind, when I suggested that the OP visit the Axiom site.

I agree on symetrical placement being best, if possible. But, if this system is primarily used with the TV, I suggest that the speakers be arranged in relation to it. Agree?

 

[GO-NAD!]

So you think I should put the center channel in front of the TV no matter where it is? That makes sense or else it's going to sound like the person on TV is throwing their voice. I understand what you're saying about the soundtracks being lopsided, but don't quite grasp what you mean by doing an asymmetrical placement with the speakers too. Could you or someone else possibly elaborate?

Also that fireplace has only been on I think once in 12 years, lol. So I'm not too worried about that

What I meant was that the TV placement in the corner would be asymmetrical in the room, because the walls on either side are different. And, if the speakers are primarily for use with the television, they should be placed in relation to it, even though it is an acoustic compromise.

What you say about the fireplace inspires an idea. If they do not use the fireplace, the TV could be placed in front of it, on the hearth extension, where it would be centered in the room. If that isn't appealing, how about a projector and screen? It might be a bit more costly, but it's food for thought. The screen could be installed right in front of the fireplace and raised out of sight when not in use. HOWEVER, I would suggest that the fireplace be rendered inoperable prior to putting a screen or TV in front of it. Just in case!

As for surround speakers, where are you thinking about placing them? That'll be a challenge as well! If your parents are more concerned about aesthics than sound quality, perhaps they should forgo surround sound. They could install a pair of speakers in each cabinet for music and maybe add a subwoofer for bass extension.

 

[Smartass408]

If your parents are more concerned about aesthics than sound quality, perhaps they should forgo surround sound. They could install a pair of speakers in each cabinet for music and maybe add a subwoofer for bass extension.

I've suggested to them that they only get 2 front speakers and possibly a center with a sub and then just add surrounds later if they feel like they want them.

But as an update, my mom went to some store called TheaterXtreme yesterday and talked to some guy about installing a HT. They deal solely with Klipsch speakers and Denon receivers (I was thinking about getting them a Denon 590 anyway). He was trying to sell her on an installation of of some Klipsch XB-10s at $500 a pair, a center, sub, and some inwall speakers in the back >.> He didn't even have any of the XB-10s set up to audition (not that she can really audition the Axioms either) Not to mention the Denon (she didn't know what model) and installation for 2300ish. There would be a TV in the deal too all totaling about $3400-3500.

I thought this was a little steep. I was thinking about getting them a Denon 590, some Axiom M3v2s for fronts, Axiom VP100 center, and not sure on the Sub yet. That's less than 1000 w/o sub and shipping for the Axioms.

What are your guy's opinions on Klipsch speakers? I think the Axioms would probably be better for my parents especially at the price compared to the XB-10s. I don't know about speaker brands though, so I welcome your opinions

My plan is to, because the room and how she wants to set it up is such an acoustical mess, have these guys come out to give a quote or estimate as to how they think it should be set up/where they'd put the speakers and then just do the work myself If anything my parents can have them install the surrounds if they REALLY want them, cause idk when I'll have time to do that.

 

[skers_54]

I've suggested to them that they only get 2 front speakers and possibly a center with a sub and then just add surrounds later if they feel like they want them.

But as an update, my mom went to some store called TheaterXtreme yesterday and talked to some guy about installing a HT. They deal solely with Klipsch speakers and Denon receivers (I was thinking about getting them a Denon 590 anyway). He was trying to sell her on an installation of of some Klipsch XB-10s at $500 a pair, a center, sub, and some inwall speakers in the back >.> He didn't even have any of the XB-10s set up to audition (not that she can really audition the Axioms either) Not to mention the Denon (she didn't know what model) and installation for 2300ish. There would be a TV in the deal too all totaling about $3400-3500.

I thought this was a little steep. I was thinking about getting them a Denon 590, some Axiom M3v2s for fronts, Axiom VP100 center, and not sure on the Sub yet. That's less than 1000 w/o sub and shipping for the Axioms.

What are your guy's opinions on Klipsch speakers? I think the Axioms would probably be better for my parents especially at the price compared to the XB-10s. I don't know about speaker brands though, so I welcome your opinions

My plan is to, because the room and how she wants to set it up is such an acoustical mess, have these guys come out to give a quote or estimate as to how they think it should be set up/where they'd put the speakers and then just do the work myself If anything my parents can have them install the surrounds if they REALLY want them, cause idk when I'll have time to do that.

In-walls would work nicely for surrounds in your situation (that's what my parents have). However, you only have one shot at them, so you need to make sure you really like the speakers before you install them.

Klipsch are a mixed bag: some people love them, others hate them. They have a very distinct sound signiture that isn't for everyone and you won't know where you/your parents fall on the spectrum until you hear them. I personally find them bright and harsh, but they are very dynamic (good for HT). Your parents' room looks highly reflective so high frequencies are going to be more pronounced. Couple that with a bright speaker like Klipsch and it could make an undesirable combination.

The best place for speakers would be a foot or two in from the walls in front of the cabinets. If your mom is adamant about placing them in the cabinet, I would look into sealed speakers like the ER bookshelves from Emotiva. Not the prettiest but are supposed to sound very good.

Good luck sorting this out!

 

[GO-NAD!]

If your mother wants her speakers "out of the way", in-walls may be an appropriate option. But, as sker_54 pointed out - you have to get it right the first time. Well, I suppose you don't have to get it right the first time, but would you like to be cutting extra holes in the walls and re-running wires? As I previously stated, the biggest problem in that room is the proposed TV placement. With a diagonal orientation and one side opening up into the dining area, you've got a major problem with surround speaker placement. Your idea of skipping the surrounds for now is probably prudent. But, if they insist on surrounds, my suggestion would be to mount them on stands and experiment with placement.

I know nothing about the XB-10's, so I couldn't offer an educated opinion of them. Nor can I give Axiom an endorsement based on personal experience. All I can do is point out the preponderence of positive reviews of Axiom speakers. Klipsch reviews are far more inconsistent.