4ohm vs. 8ohm?

[thazy2]

SQ car audio guy trying to enter HT.

can't seem to find any info using search (car speakers, 4 ohms)


If some one can point me in the right direction w/ a link for thread.


or


Can HIGH END car audio speaker be adaptable for Home use? Why and Why not?


Please and thank you.......Jason

 

[JoeE SP9]

Could you rephrase your question.

 

[Unregistered]

Well I guess what im trying to understand is, what is the difference between car speakers and home speakers? Why 4ohms and 8ohms?



Best...........jason

 

[JoeE SP9]

Home audio speakers are not all 8 Ohm speakers. They can be and are 4 or 8 or anything in between. For home audio the impedance of a given speaker is not all that important. As long as the amp you are using can work into the impedance it is not really an issue. Most if not all decent home equipment will work with virtually any home audio speaker with no problem. In essence it is a non issue.

 

[O'Shag]

Home audio speakers are not all 8 Ohm speakers. They can be and are 4 or 8 or anything in between. For home audio the impedance of a given speaker is not all that important. As long as the amp you are using can work into the impedance it is not really an issue. Most if not all decent home equipment will work with virtually any home audio speaker with no problem. In essence it is a non issue.

The ohm impedance rating is an inportant factor, 4 ohm speakers having more effective sensitivity than 8 ohm speakers. That is why most high-end audio speaker systems are rated at 4 ohms and sometimes less. 8 ohm impedence is a popular choice for HT systems (although the best HT systems are 4 ohms or less) because the load is easier for an amplifier to handle, especially in terms of powering speaker systems from one multichannel amplifier. Some of the very greatest speaker systems ever made are notoriously difficult for an amplifier to drive, as their impedance varies and can drop to 1 ohm or less, and this demands tremendous power from the amplifier. As such, these high sensitivity speaker systems require very powerful and flexible amplifiers such as Krell, Pass Labs Aleph or Mark Levinson, however the upside is that they are unmatched in terms of sensitivity, midrange transparency, and soundstage.

Cheers

O'Shag

 

[JoeE SP9]

The ohm impedance rating is an inportant factor, 4 ohm speakers having more effective sensitivity than 8 ohm speakers. That is why most high-end audio speaker systems are rated at 4 ohms and sometimes less. 8 ohm impedence is a popular choice for HT systems (although the best HT systems are 4 ohms or less) because the load is easier for an amplifier to handle, especially in terms of powering speaker systems from one multichannel amplifier. Some of the very greatest speaker systems ever made are notoriously difficult for an amplifier to drive, as their impedance varies and can drop to 1 ohm or less, and this demands tremendous power from the amplifier. As such, these high sensitivity speaker systems require very powerful and flexible amplifiers such as Krell, Pass Labs Aleph or Mark Levinson, however the upside is that they are unmatched in terms of sensitivity, midrange transparency, and soundstage.

Cheers

O'Shag

I don't really disagree with what you are saying. However someone who is asking about differences between 4 and 8 ohm speakers is probably not going to buy a pair of Apogee Scintilla's or Diva's. Apogee's have a rep for being very bad loads. They approach 1 ohm at times. In those circumstances there is some concern. I'm not sure how true it is but I have heard that some receivers don't really like 4 ohm loads. I have never had this problem as I have never owned a receiver. I am aware that the greater sensitivity of 4 ohm voice coils is the main reason almost all car audio speakers are 4 ohm. I just think that in a HT or straight stereo environment it is not really something that requires a lot of concern. I guess what I'm saying is "I would be more concerned with how a speaker sounds than with its impedence rating." All other things considered; if it sounds better then it is.

 

[O'Shag]

JoeE,

Yes I do agree with that. Mind you, I'd give my eye teeth for a pair of DIVAs. Unfortunately can't afford them at the present.

By the way, does the SP9 denote the Audio Research Sp9 preamp?

 

[mtrycrafts]

The ohm impedance rating is an inportant factor, 4 ohm speakers having more effective sensitivity than 8 ohm speakers.

I am sorry. What are you driving at here with this? 4 ohm speakers are more sensitive?

That is why most high-end audio speaker systems are rated at 4 ohms and sometimes less.

I am curious if NRC in Canada would agree with this statement. I seriously doubt it.

8 ohm impedence is a popular choice for HT systems (although the best HT systems are 4 ohms or less) because the load is easier for an amplifier to handle,

Well, that is an opinion only. If 4 ohms was that easy for an amp, they would al be so rated for continuous operation. Very few are.

Some of the very greatest speaker systems ever made are notoriously difficult for an amplifier to drive, as their impedance varies and can drop to 1 ohm or less, and this demands tremendous power from the amplifier.

And other great speakers are not such a difficult load. It is a design outcome only, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[O'Shag]

[/QUOTE]I am sorry. What are you driving at here with this? 4 ohm speakers are more sensitive?

I am curious if NRC in Canada would agree with this statement. I seriously doubt it.

Well, that is an opinion only. If 4 ohms was that easy for an amp, they would al be so rated for continuous operation. Very few are.

And other great speakers are not such a difficult load. It is a design outcome only, nothing more, nothing less. [/QUOTE]

You are incorrect, and your last sentence does not make sense.

The design outcome is based on a specific market segment or marketing objective for a specific product or product group. Obviously, speaker manufacturers are not always aiming to produce the very best speaker product bar none. Rather they are aiming to produce a value within a specific market segment, that is to excel among the competition within a specific sector. However, in the high-end market different considerations apply. Therefore large, very expensive, and extremely powerful amplifiers capable of driving the most demanding but highly sensitive speakers find a ready market. The best speakers in the world are not 8 ohm speakers. I own a very good 8 ohm speaker system, and a very good 4 ohm speaker system. The 4 ohm system is superior on all levels.

One of the significant challenges for most speaker manufacturers is to maintain sensitivity and present a resistive load that is not too difficult for amplifiers to drive effectively. If they cannot achieve this then they will not satisfy the mass market demand to provide a speaker system that can be driven by a moderately priced and user friendly amplifier/receiver. An impedance set at 4ohms results in a doubling of effective sensitivity and therefore of output level over a more conventional nominal 8 ohm load.

It remains a fact that the very best speaker systems money can buy, now and in the past, have an impedance of less than 8 ohms.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I am sorry. What are you driving at here with this? 4 ohm speakers are more sensitive?

I am curious if NRC in Canada would agree with this statement. I seriously doubt it.

Well, that is an opinion only. If 4 ohms was that easy for an amp, they would al be so rated for continuous operation. Very few are.

And other great speakers are not such a difficult load. It is a design outcome only, nothing more, nothing less. [/QUOTE]

You are incorrect, and your last sentence does not make sense.

The design outcome is based on a specific market segment or marketing objective for a specific product or product group. Obviously, speaker manufacturers are not always aiming to produce the very best speaker product bar none. Rather they are aiming to produce a value within a specific market segment, that is to excel among the competition within a specific sector. However, in the high-end market different considerations apply. Therefore large, very expensive, and extremely powerful amplifiers capable of driving the most demanding but highly sensitive speakers find a ready market. The best speakers in the world are not 8 ohm speakers. I own a very good 8 ohm speaker system, and a very good 4 ohm speaker system. The 4 ohm system is superior on all levels.

One of the significant challenges for most speaker manufacturers is to maintain sensitivity and present a resistive load that is not too difficult for amplifiers to drive effectively. If they cannot achieve this then they will not satisfy the mass market demand to provide a speaker system that can be driven by a moderately priced and user friendly amplifier/receiver. An impedance set at 4ohms results in a doubling of effective sensitivity and therefore of output level over a more conventional nominal 8 ohm load.

It remains a fact that the very best speaker systems money can buy, now and in the past, have an impedance of less than 8 ohms.[/QUOTE]


I don't mind being incorrect, but, real evidence, real facts would help out a lot. I don't see any yet.

Less than 8 ohms? By how much? 7 Ohms? Down to 1 ohm? 1/2 Ohm?

Well, let me see what a well known and well published speaker designer and researcher at NRC in Canada has to say:
"Some high end loudspeakers have impedances of less than an ohm-which I regard as incompetent design- and this forces the owner into buying hugely expensive power amps."

As to which speakers are best in the world is very subjective indeed, unless one was chosen free of bias. So goes the wheel around.

 

[JoeE SP9]

JoeE,

Yes I do agree with that. Mind you, I'd give my eye teeth for a pair of DIVAs. Unfortunately can't afford them at the present.

By the way, does the SP9 denote the Audio Research Sp9 preamp?

One of my audio buddies stuck me with the SP9 moniker. I actually own one. When I purchased it I told him it was my last pre-amp (hah!). It does have all the latest upgrades. I did recently see a pair of mini grands for sale on Audiogon. I was very tempted.

 

[JoeE SP9]

SQ car audio guy trying to enter HT.

can't seem to find any info using search (car speakers, 4 ohms)


If some one can point me in the right direction w/ a link for thread.


or


Can HIGH END car audio speaker be adaptable for Home use? Why and Why not?


Please and thank you.......Jason

I think we are getting away from your original question. Worrying about a HT speaker being 4 or 8 ohms is not as important as how it sounds with your equipment. I suggest you go to a decent high end store and listen to some speakers. If you know any audiophiles in your area check out their systems. Imaging and soundstaging are something I have never heard properly demonstrated in a car stereo. Those two things you should hear easily in a decent HT setup.

 

[O'Shag]

I don't mind being incorrect, but, real evidence, real facts would help out a lot. I don't see any yet.

Less than 8 ohms? By how much? 7 Ohms? Down to 1 ohm? 1/2 Ohm?

Well, let me see what a well known and well published speaker designer and researcher at NRC in Canada has to say:
"Some high end loudspeakers have impedances of less than an ohm-which I regard as incompetent design- and this forces the owner into buying hugely expensive power amps."

As to which speakers are best in the world is very subjective indeed, unless one was chosen free of bias. So goes the wheel around.

Hi Mtrycrafts,

For evidence - If you read any of the leading industry publications such as Stereophile, Hi-Fi News, Hi-Fi Magazine, The Absolute Sound, etcetera etcetera, ample evidence will present itself to support the conversation regarding ohms. If you read through some back issues you are sure to find in depth specifications to support the supposition that high-end speaker systems almost invariably have a lower impedance rating than 8 ohms.

The Canadian designer whom you speak of does have a point. A variable impedance as to be found on say - the Infinity IRS Beta or Genesis system, both designed by Arnie Nudell - are very difficult to drive effectively, and can be a royal pain in the arse (especially if the potential owner is not loaded with benjamins). These speaker systems are a four-tower and a five piece system respectively, with the IRS Beta comprised of two planar speakers for the MF and HF and two LF towers each consisting of five (I think) 12" woofers (thats 10 huge woofers in all!!). One needs two very powerful solid state amps each rated at a minimum of 500 watts RMS into 4ohms (but better performance with 1000 watts each) to drive the LF towers properly, and powerful tube amps are recommended for the MF/HF towers. These towers vary from less than 1 ohm to almost 16 ohms (although I'm not sure if these figures are exact). Downside as your Canadian designer would point out - Horribly difficult load to drive (most standard amplifiers will give up the ghost), very expensive to power this system needing four amplifiers, needs larger room to come to life. But on the other hand, if you are the sort that can blow 90k on a Porche without blinking and can pay the entry fee, or meet certain criteria such as providing a room of adequate size, they will simply blow the sh*te out most anything you have ever or will ever hear. Similar with some Apogee speakers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

For evidence - If you read any of the leading industry publications such as Stereophile, Hi-Fi News, Hi-Fi Magazine, The Absolute Sound, etcetera

You mean leading audio rags? They are entertainment value only. Authoritative? Hardly. They cater to their advertisers.
It certainly not peer reviewed, is it?

I thought you might bring something from the real audio industry to the table, not rags as evidence.

ample evidence will present itself to support the conversation regarding ohms.


How can it? They don't publish listening data based on bias controlled protocol, hence we have no idea about sonic quality of any of their component reviews. Totally unreliable, biased, etc. Entertainment only.



If you read through some back issues you are sure to find in depth specifications to support the supposition that high-end speaker systems almost invariably have a lower impedance rating than 8 ohms.

Ah, their judgement that the speakers are hi end? Based on what? Their biased listening?


These towers vary from less than 1 ohm to almost 16 ohms (although I'm not sure if these figures are exact). Downside as your Canadian designer would point out - Horribly difficult load to drive (most standard amplifiers will give up the ghost),

Oh, my Canadian designer would call this an incompetent design.

 

[ericb]

Incompetent?

These towers vary from less than 1 ohm to almost 16 ohms (although I'm not sure if these figures are exact). Downside as your Canadian designer would point out - Horribly difficult load to drive (most standard amplifiers will give up the ghost),

Oh, my Canadian designer would call this an incompetent design. [/QUOTE]


Incompetent? I wouldnt say incompetent design at ALL. It wasnt designed for me to own and power using a Denon 3805. It was designed to be powered this way for that specific market of people and properly set up, It definitely kicks any set of 8ohm speakers out there. Thats like saying Ferrari doesnt design their cars very well because to replace the tires will cost you 12K each time and requires supreme fuel to run efficiently and the average joe can't do that. The fact remains that the ferrari is a superior car to say a honda prelude.

 

[Polkfan]

The fact remains that the ferrari is a superior car to say a honda prelude.

That is not necessarily true. It depends on the expectations of the person who will own such a car. If fuel economy is the primary factor, then the Honda is clearly superior. This is also very likely the case concerning reliability. Just because something costs more or goes faster does not make it superior.

 

[av_phile]

Speaker impedance and sensitivity are two different things. Both 4 and 8 ohms speakers can have similar range of sensitivities from 84db to a loud 96db.

For sure, the lower the speaker impedance, the more difficult the load is as presented to the amp. That is why many commericial amps and receivers out there are not rated into 4 ohm loads. Much less into 2. The lower the load, the more current is extracted from the amp, and the hotter it usually gets. The lower the load, the closer it is to a short condition, more current flows. If the amp does not have sufficient power and is not up to par to handle such a condition, it will die a horrible death. A 1 ohm load over most of the frequencies as presented by most high end speakers presents a difficult load that only powerful amps can handle.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Incompetent? I wouldnt say incompetent design at ALL.

That speaker researcher and designer would. OK by me.

It wasnt designed for me to own and power using a Denon 3805.

So, it was designed like that on purpose, with such impedance curve? No wonder that designer calls these incompetent.

It definitely kicks any set of 8ohm speakers out there.

This is based on what empirical evidence? Reliable evidence?

Thats like saying Ferrari doesnt design their cars very well because to replace the tires will cost you 12K each time and requires supreme fuel to run efficiently and the average joe can't do that. The fact remains that the ferrari is a superior car to say a honda prelude.

Why do audiophiles like to make such ludicrous comparisons between cars and audio components?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just because something costs more or goes faster does not make it superior.

Now that would be applicable across the consumer market place

 

[Unregistered]

MTRYCRAFTS really has no idea.

That is really all I have to say. The impedence of a speaker shows just how efficient it is at taking cirtain loads of power.

I my oppinion 8ohm speakers are in fact more efficient than 4ohm speakers. The reason.

Well lets think about it!
it only takes say 250 watts to power an 8ohm speaker, but it would take 500watts to power a comparitive speaker which is 4ohms.

However I believe the lower the impedence the better. it may put more pressure on the amplifier but the sound quality and power, control is worth it!