~$4k Passive Large Bookshelf

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
That is a more plausible claim as the power band is spread between three drivers. That is 160 watts to each driver in the power band. That is a big reduction as heat in the VC goes up by the square of the current. 350 watts to one small driver is totally implausible. It is NOT possible. In addition a metal coned speaker removes heat from the VC faster than other cone materials.
Power spec aside they look like some very good speakers.
Right now it's just speculation. I don't know myself, but everything else looks excellent. Anything positive to add?

I've noticed this before and it always baffles me. Every time I bring up an Ascend Acoustics speaker you quote me and point out all of the potential problems and have never once acknowledged "this might be a good speaker". This case, it's the power specs. No comment whatsoever on anything else provided. Did Dave piss someone off over here or what?

I can't seem to get a positive reply from hardly anyone over here when discussing their products, and YOU, in particular, really seem to have it in for Ascend Acoustics. Why?
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Right now it's just speculation. I don't know myself, but everything else looks excellent. Anything positive to add?

I've noticed this before and it always baffles me. Every time I bring up an Ascend Acoustics speaker you quote me and point out all of the potential problems and have never once acknowledged "this might be a good speaker". This case, it's the power specs. No comment whatsoever on anything else provided. Did Dave piss someone off over here or what?

I can't seem to get a positive reply from hardly anyone over here when discussing their products, and YOU, in particular, really seem to have it in for Ascend Acoustics. Why?
I don't have anything against Ascend, and some of their stuff looks good, but that power handling spec is just implausible. I wonder if they would support a warranty claim for someone who actually hooked it up to a 350-watt amp and blasted it? An unlikely scenario, to be sure, but why make unsupportable claims to start with?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't have anything against Ascend, and some of their stuff looks good, but that power handling spec is just implausible. I wonder if they would support a warranty claim for someone who actually hooked it up to a 350-watt amp and blasted it? An unlikely scenario, to be sure, but why make unsupportable claims to start with?
I understand questioning a power spec, and my post wasn't directed so much at you, but just about any thread or post about Ascend here is doa, and TLS is especially hard on them. When I first got my speakers and posted a half dozen great looking charts the one thing that got zeroed in on was this teeny little bump in an otherwise very linear, easy to drive impedance plot. Thats it. Thats what was focused on for several posts. Everything else was ignored, much like the power spec in this case. What about the rest?

I have no idea where he got that spec from or how he came up with it, but I do know he is anticipating, perhaps even banking on Amir running a battery of tests on these new speakers in his lineup so I'd think it foolish to put out bloated specs. Otoh, how many companies put out specs that seem to good to be true? Just about all of them. Especially power handling specs. I don't think he's doing anything much different from any other manufacturer. 6 dB lower than average sensitivity might have a little to do with it?

I just want to know why they seem to get a bad rap here.

*PS, I just made a post over on their forums bluntly asking for clarification on that power spec. I'll report back when I get a reply.
 
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concorde

Enthusiast
Definitely talk to your dealer about any deals.

One thing about brick and mortar store brands - depending on the lines, you can usually get big discounts.
Thanks for the tip. I live in New Zealand where there are no RBH dealers, so I will try to get them direct from RBH (when I have more funds).
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
*PS, I just made a post over on their forums bluntly asking for clarification on that power spec. I'll report back when I get a reply.
This is what I got back when asked "can they really handle that much power?". Half of it is over my head, but do with it what you will.

"All one must do is look at the power specifications for the individual drivers from SEAS. SEAS fully conforms, not only conforms - but is influential in setting the standards, for standardized IEC testing of drivers.

The tweeter: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=556:h1825-06-27tac_gb&catid=45:seas-prestige-tweeters&Itemid=462

Note the continuous power handling of 180 watts, peak power of 240 watts.

The woofer: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=555:h1869-08-l16rnx3&catid=44:utv-prestige-woofers&Itemid=461

Note the continuous power handling of 200 watts, peak power of 300 watts.

Our woofer is a bit different as it uses an even larger magnet, which would further increase power handling due to having a larger surface area to dissipate heat. That is irrelevant though as I did not factor that into the power rating for the LX speaker.

Also note the extremely important disclaimer:

* PER IEC 268-5

IEC 268-5 testing for power handling is as follows:

100 hour RMS – 100 hours with continuous signal.
(IEC 268-5, cl 18.4 Rated noise test)

Long Term Power Handling – 10 times alternating between signal for one minute and pause for 2 min. Total test time is 28 min.
(IEC 268-5, cl 18.2)

Short Term Power Handling – 60 times alternating between signal for one second and pause for 1 min. Total test time one hour.
(IEC 268-5, cl 18.1)

That is well beyond torture testing.

These drivers aren't secretive nor are they cheap knockoffs - these are fully manufactured by SEAS and heavily scrutinized and peer-reviewed as to all of their published specifications."
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
This is what I got back when asked "can they really handle that much power?". Half of it is over my head, but do with it what you will.

"All one must do is look at the power specifications for the individual drivers from SEAS. SEAS fully conforms, not only conforms - but is influential in setting the standards, for standardized IEC testing of drivers.

The tweeter: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=556:h1825-06-27tac_gb&catid=45:seas-prestige-tweeters&Itemid=462

Note the continuous power handling of 180 watts, peak power of 240 watts.

The woofer: http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=555:h1869-08-l16rnx3&catid=44:utv-prestige-woofers&Itemid=461

Note the continuous power handling of 200 watts, peak power of 300 watts.

Our woofer is a bit different as it uses an even larger magnet, which would further increase power handling due to having a larger surface area to dissipate heat. That is irrelevant though as I did not factor that into the power rating for the LX speaker.

Also note the extremely important disclaimer:

* PER IEC 268-5

IEC 268-5 testing for power handling is as follows:

100 hour RMS – 100 hours with continuous signal.
(IEC 268-5, cl 18.4 Rated noise test)

Long Term Power Handling – 10 times alternating between signal for one minute and pause for 2 min. Total test time is 28 min.
(IEC 268-5, cl 18.2)

Short Term Power Handling – 60 times alternating between signal for one second and pause for 1 min. Total test time one hour.
(IEC 268-5, cl 18.1)

That is well beyond torture testing.

These drivers aren't secretive nor are they cheap knockoffs - these are fully manufactured by SEAS and heavily scrutinized and peer-reviewed as to all of their published specifications."
I found the thread that post came from. Dave makes some interesting points. My guess is that while these conform to an IEC power-handling spec, they wouldn't really be able to handle what we would consider 350-watts continuously, and, by that, I mean hook them up to a powerful amp and continuously blast them with a signal that averages 350-watts. I am sure they cam handle a lot of power without dying, depending on the signal. I would say that Dave isn't wrong but neither is TLS Guy. Not that it matters since no one is going to do that in any really world use. I am sure they are fine speakers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I found the thread that post came from. Dave makes some interesting points. My guess is that while these conform to an IEC power-handling spec, they wouldn't really be able to handle what we would consider 350-watts continuously, and, by that, I mean hook them up to a powerful amp and continuously blast them with a signal that averages 350-watts. I am sure they cam handle a lot of power without dying, depending on the signal. I would say that Dave isn't wrong but neither is TLS Guy. Not that it matters since no one is going to do that in any really world use. I am sure they are fine speakers.
I think the more important point is, how much VOLUME can the speakers produce before DISTORTING?

I think the OP is looking for a very DYNAMIC bookshelf = the ability to play at HIGH VOLUME before DISTORTING.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I think the more important point is, how much VOLUME can the speakers produce before DISTORTING?

I think the OP is looking for a very DYNAMIC bookshelf = the ability to play at HIGH VOLUME before DISTORTING.
They aren't very sensitive, but they can handle a lot of power, so the limiting factor is going to be sheer displacement. The woofers have a 7mm Xmax with an 11mm Xmech. That should enable them to get fairly loud in the midrange frequencies, I would guess between 105dB and 110dB (if very lucky), but they won't get super loud in bass. If you want high volume rocking, you will need subs with these, and the higher of a crossover frequency you can use, the better.
 
M

mj30250

Audioholic Intern
I think the more important point is, how much VOLUME can the speakers produce before DISTORTING?

I think the OP is looking for a very DYNAMIC bookshelf = the ability to play at HIGH VOLUME before DISTORTING.
But what does "high volume" mean to the OP? 85dB continuous allowing for ~105dB dynamic peaks at the LP is extremely loud to my ears. Once I nudge up to around 90dB continuous I'm pretty uncomfortable, even when listening to neutral, high quality speakers. The distortion measurements for the LXs are excellent for a true bookshelf speaker, and they should have no issue whatsoever cleanly ramping beyond 85dB/105dB peaks in a typical environment at typical listening distances (w/ suitable amplifier power, of course).

Sierra LX Fundamental + Harmonic distortion components 86.png
Sierra LX Fundamental + Harmonic distortion components 96.png
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I found the thread that post came from. Dave makes some interesting points. My guess is that while these conform to an IEC power-handling spec, they wouldn't really be able to handle what we would consider 350-watts continuously, and, by that, I mean hook them up to a powerful amp and continuously blast them with a signal that averages 350-watts. I am sure they cam handle a lot of power without dying, depending on the signal. I would say that Dave isn't wrong but neither is TLS Guy. Not that it matters since no one is going to do that in any really world use. I am sure they are fine speakers.
I think that's a fair assumption. I totally agree that it's a pretty unbelievable power spec and understand the skepticism. To me it looks like there's a bit of juggling some numbers around to make it "technically" true on some level, but not necessarily in the way one might think. Still looks like it can take a punch tho. Also agree that there aren't many people out there that would even attempt it anyway. I think most of us would tap out well before that.

Given everything else provided I think it's a small nit if it lives up to the measurements. He really went after this to build a speaker that would kill it on the bench. I really would like to see what you think of them in a review.
 
N

noway

Audiophyte
I have a pair of these Dynaudio BM15, no longer available new since they are now "active only" as BM15A:


Although they may tick all your boxes, they are too much speaker for a room that small. In another room, 30'x20', they are outstanding. Unfortunately you may find it hard figuring out what will work from your armchair research so would recommend buying from a company that has return privileges.
 
C

concorde

Enthusiast
I need advice quick. Thinking of March Sointuva (I get 15% off very temporarily). I can't decide if I should go for Sointuva and sacrifice power handling, or spend roughly the same and get the Arendal 1723 Monitor THX (which has not as good a spinorama I think).

Also considering RBH SV-831R.

I almost bought the Sointuva yesterday. I just don't know if it will get significantly louder than my JBL Studio 530's.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Well I'm biased toward RBH. I've been drooling over the SVTR Towers (that include the SV-831Rs) for forever.

That said, have you listened to any of them? What are your listening habits and distance from speakers? That might tell you right there if power handling is going to be an important factor.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I need advice quick. Thinking of March Sointuva (I get 15% off very temporarily). I can't decide if I should go for Sointuva and sacrifice power handling, or spend roughly the same and get the Arendal 1723 Monitor THX (which has not as good a spinorama I think).

Also considering RBH SV-831R.

I almost bought the Sointuva yesterday. I just don't know if it will get significantly louder than my JBL Studio 530's.
The Sointuva is very different than the other speakers you were looking at. If you don't need a lot of dynamic range, they will do nicely, I think. However, they sacrifice a lot of sensitivity for low-frequency extension. They look like a good choice for those who are going without a subwoofer. Those are not rock'n'roll speakers.
 
C

concorde

Enthusiast
It seems to me the 1723 Monitor THX has an estimated in room response suggestive of brightness - the dropoff in SPL with frequency is more gentle rather than 1dB per octave.

Also the linearity is great but not exceptional.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Don't know if you've seen these reviews of the Sointuva


 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
It seems to me the 1723 Monitor THX has an estimated in room response suggestive of brightness - the dropoff in SPL with frequency is more gentle rather than 1dB per octave.

Also the linearity is great but not exceptional.
Estimated in-room response is usually nonsense, especially in regards to higher frequencies. What will make a greater difference for the brightness of the speaker is simply how you have it angled. If you want the speaker to be as bright as possible, angle it so it faces your listening position directly. If you want to take off some of the edge of the brightness, give the speaker a mild toe-in or no toe-in.
 
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