4 JL Fathom 113v2 vs 4 Funk Audio 18.0, which is most invisible and musical?

[ViciousDelicious]

Hey guys,

I've done a very extensive amount of searching and reading online but could not find direct comparison between these two subs.

I currently have a 80 cubic meter dedicated theater/media room (2800 cubic feet) with 4 B&W CT 15 inch subs. With this setup I have never really felt the real chest slam or powerful base as much as I was expected and I felt that the subs were dragging the overall system sound quality down, not being able to keep up with the LCRs and whenever I had more base in the mix the more I felt that the system lost detail and clarity.
I’m using Dirac with minidsp for room correction as well as did the proper time alignment between the 4 subs as well as phase alignment with the rest of the speakers.

I have recently had the ability to audition one JL Audio Fathom 113v2 in my room. It was a bit of a revelation not so much due to much more effortless deeper and higher output (even though it was 1 sub vs 4!) but due to the overall sound quality improvement of the system. The system sounded 5 times more transparent, the surround effects were much cleaner and well localized, the sound stage was a lot more 3dimensional and I no longer had the problem of losing detail with bass heavy mixes - on the contrary it felt like overall my system sounded 2x more expensive and detailed in all frequencies.

And the most impressive thing was that the auditioned JL sub just disappeared. You just couldn't tell if it was on or off! It was so amazingly clean and transparent.

I am considering going with a higher crossover to get higher dynamics and more tactile lower base without losing any of the sound quality, which prompted me to pause looking at Wisdom Audio STS which is designed to extend only up to 80hz (while otherwise seemingly being a mind blowingly fast and musical sub).

This experience made me to seriously look at the base upgrade of my room and from all the heavy reading it seems like the 2 best options for me are 4 Funk Audio 18.0 vs 4 JL Audio Fathom 113v2 which I had the opportunity to hear.

The most important thing for me would be the sound quality followed by SPL. I hope with 4 great subs in my room I could get proper pressurization and physicality of base so I’m really looking to decide between the two to get the best musicality and transparency out of my base to go along with any of the speaker upgrades in the future (am looking at B&W 803 D3’s with Classe at the moment).

Has anyone directly compared the two? From all of my reading and measurement comparison I see that Funk 18.0 would have higher overall output, would not have the low pass or high pass filters that Fathom would have so it would extend lower into the 10hz range properly as well as go flat above 100hz instead of having the falloff that the Fathom would have. The group delay seems better with Fathom in upper base range but better with Funk in 30hz and down, though both are well within one cycle.

But what are the actual differences in sound quality? Which one would be the most musical and transparent?

Thanks so much for all of help beforehand!

 

[djreef]

If tactile response is important to you then you should add the JTR Captivator 1400 to your list, unless you're absolutely set on a sealed design. If so then the Seaton F-18+ (which I can whole heartedly endorse) should also be thrown into the mix. The Captivators have some serious slam for less $. It really would be hard to beat them for the price without going DIY.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=117

Given your really positive experience with the JL Labs, I'm thinking that would be a fine choice. I don't think you'll experience any buyers remorse with that sub ;D.

DJ

 

[shadyJ]

Can you post a graph of your frequency response? I doubt that buying different subwoofers is going to help you here.

 

[ViciousDelicious]

djreef:
The point of tactile response is very interesting - I have read somehwere that the physicality of base isn't influenced by the SPL as much as the "speed of particle movement" (whatever that means). I've read people theorizing that smaller drivers with more excursion or ported / horn designs exhibit faster movement of air and therefore at the same measured SPL would feel more tacticle / physical. If anyone knows anything about this and could demistify this it would be great because I'd much prefer to go with sealed designs to hit some of the lower hz if possible

shadyJ:

Here are some measurments (the latest one with 100hz cross)

Power compression (10hz to 120 with 80hz cross):

Even the power compression looked relatively good but it doesn't convert into sound quality. My measrument skills and theoretical understanding are very limited (I'm a starting enthusiast) and either not everything pertaining the SQ can be measured or one needs much more sophisticated tools and knowledge to be able to gage SQ differences in the measured graphs.

 

[djreef]

There are actually a bunch of factors that influence tactile response. Proximity to the source is extremely important. The farther away you are from the source the more diffuse the "particles" become, therefore the less the impact. Imagine the spread of a shotgun blast at 3ft, 15ft, 30ft, 50ft etc. The pellet pattern spreads and becomes less effective to the target. If you're running 15" B&W drivers there's no reason to believe that you couldn't get the increased slam from placing them closer to the listening position. Room pressurization also plays a part in this, which is a brute force parameter that is proprietary to the system. These things may be dependent upon placement of the sub systems that you currently have. AS I think Shady was alluding to, you may want to experiment a bit with this before dropping serious $ on something that may yield only a small perceived improvement. In other words exhaust all your options with what you have before commiting.

DJ

 

[shadyJ]

That response is very flat. I think that what you are after is more elevated mid bass than a flat response. Placing a single F113 in your room is bound to give you a rocky response, so we can infer from this that you do not prefer a flat response. I would start by rolling off the range below 50 Hz by a 6 dB slope and 12 dB slope, and I would experiment with different rolloffs at different frequencies. you should also elevate the bass around 80 Hz or so. If all you do is replace your present subs with different subs and still get the same frequency response, it will sound the same, so there is no point in buying new subs. A lot of people are after that 'punch' and 'slam' but that happens at mid bass frequencies, and it tends to come from a very elevated mid bass response. As djreef said, one thing you might try is a near-field placement by moving a subwoofer right behind your seat.

Something else to consider is that the reason why you think the JL Audio sub cleared things up is because it did not output so much bass that it was masking sound from the mains. Bass will shroud sound at frequencies immediately higher than it, and this is called auditory masking. By simply having less bass in the subwoofer band, you will have clearer bass in upper bass frequencies. So one thing you might try is simply lowering the output level on all subs. Try lowering the LFE out by 5 dB and see how that sounds, experiment with different output levels.

In any case, I doubt the solution will be to buy more subs. I doubt B&W is so incompetent that their subs are vastly inferior to JL Audio. I think the case is you got a taste of a different response curve and/or different output level and you liked it.

 

[ViciousDelicious]

djreef:

So you think both Funk or JL Audio given enough output capability (say 4 of them) would be able to get the same tactile impact as the JTR (say 2 of them)? SPL wise they should be quite similar though Funk would have much, much less distortion at the same output level compared to the JTR according to the data bass measrument. Group delay also seems a lot worse with the JTR compared to Funk, which means that the sub could feel "laggier" with the music and would introduce more time misalignment into the frequency composition of the signal. Hard to argue with brute force power though But i'm more interested in just getting the absolute best sound quality, money aside (within reason, I am not considering Gothams or anything like that).

I don't have too much wiggle room with the placement since the room was specifically decorated and built with this setup in mind - 2 subs in front behind the acoustic wall and 2 subs in the back with the sofa being 2/3 to the middle (a bit closer to the back wall). From what I understand and based on the Audioholics sub placement videos and articles here it's supposed to be positioned in the most optimal way for my room. Not sure how much more I can get out of my current units, especially when 1 JL Audio sub kicked their ass in a direct comparison in the same room.

shadyJ:

You're right in that the base will always mask higher frequencies but the effect to which it does so really depends on the quality of base rather than simly the quantity of it as could be measured signlehandedly from just the FR measrument.

Here's the reason why I think it's the case:

1. JL Audio was level matched and also calibrated using Dirac and was just as flat (except a tiny dip in the cross area that couldn't be corrected without adding more subs) and yet while having a very similar response curve they sounded completely different. The base was much more precise and the sub was invisible. It wasn't quieter, there was no less base but it just was much more in tune and on the quality level of the rest of the system. For instance in Michael Buble's Alwyas on My Mind the base lines sounded sharp and you could hear the base string snapping in its attack while they had the same volume and weight as with B&W subs, just not nearly the same tightness and resolution in the reproduction.
2. A simpler test can be done where I move the crossover to 60hz instead of current 80 or 100 such that my fronts play more of that base instead of the subs. The resulting frequency curve will be as flat and will look identical from measurment but the end result sound quality will be a totally different system in terms of resolution and clarity. So this again leads me to believe that it's not simply about the frequency response and quantity of each frequency but other qualities of the driver/amplifier that make the system sound completley different.
3. I have played with a lot of house curves with Dirac and ended up settling with the default curve it outputs as it sounded the most natural and balanced overall across different source material. In fact, i found that by doing more of the agressive base curves I probably drove my system to its limits faster and it ended up sounding worse and not better. If I had the subs to handle the my slightly above refernece SPL levels with enough headroom I would probably be trying those curves again.

The problem with putting the cross so low is that dynamically and in terms of the output the front speakers can't compete with 4 beast subs so you're losing the dynamic punch and tactile feel here. That's why I'd want to find subs that have the same level of clarity that my fronts have but are more dynamic and have higher output capabilities.

Which is why I was curious if anyone heard Funks here and with high end speakers on music and especially how they compare with JL Audio flagship subs, since I have auditioned those and can use them as point of refernece.

P.S. I don't mean to say that B&W CT7 aren't competent subs, they probably are if the front speakers and the rest of the chain were lower qualiy and not as detailed. But with the acoustic treatement, Dirac, and Classe amps with top of the line B&W speakers their CT 7 subs stand out like a sore thumb, they just can't keep up quality wise. It's like matching 2 amazing floor standing speakers with a center speaker that is a couple levels inferior in quality. In the end it will seem like lowering the center speaker by 5db will improve the sound quality of the system but not becuase the center should be 5db lower but rather becuase it's not nearly on the same level as the rest of the system.

 

[lovinthehd]

I can't take it any more! It's BASS not base (even if they are somewhat related linguistically). Grouch over, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

If I were spending your money I'd take Funk over JL particularly for the superior cabinetry/finishes available (since both are furniture grade type subs than simply high performance subs, but think Funk has the edge there as well). I'd take JTR and Seaton over JL, too and that would be because they have higher value. I go diy with my own money, tho

Curious, how could one sub compare so well to 4 supposedly well-integrated subs? How did you position/insert the single sub for comparison? Not a fan of B&W subs but also imagine their 15" subs should be more competent than that. Did you measure response of the JL in your room?

 

[ViciousDelicious]

One caveat here is that the 4 B&W's are driven with 2 of their Class D amps (500watts constant for each sub) so I am sure one could get better results by getting 4 amps, it might add a bit more impact and authority to the bass but I doubt it would affect the overall SQ. Even on paper just frequency response wise B&Ws can't touch either funk or JL audio. With 4 amps the price of the B&W solution would be more than 4 funks with some significant change and I think there would be absolutely no comparsion in performance, just based on JL Audio experience. Weaker amps would probably make my current subs compare more to Funk 18.0C.

Anotehr slight difference was that the JL Audio sub was right on the floor where as my current subs are on a bit of a pedestall behind the front wall where all of the equipment is on, it's about 40cm tall. I could see this adding couple more DB to the overall output, but since there'd be 4 JL Audios I'm not worried about that advtantage (if there is one at all), but rather I'm interested in pure sound quality. A lot of people also recommend not putting subs right on the floor as it might slightly improve room mode response in the floor/ceiling relationship.

 

[shadyJ]

You're right in that the base will always mask higher frequencies but the effect to which it does so really depends on the quality of base rather than simly the quantity of it as could be measured signlehandedly from just the FR measrument.

I don't know what you mean by quality, but low-frequency amplitude alone will mask. This has been scientifically demonstrated and is not some audiophile fiction. 'Quality' has nothing to do with it. Unless the B&W subs had some kind of awful group delay, which I very much doubt. I have heard a variety of JL Audio subs and have not been blown away by them.

For instance in Michael Buble's Alwyas on My Mind the base lines sounded sharp and you could hear the base string snapping in its attack while they had the same volume and weight as with B&W subs, just not nearly the same tightness and resolution in the reproduction.

The thing is, most of the sound that a bass attack is not in subwoofer frequency bands. What you are hearing is upper bass harmonics, and that will be produced by your mains. I think something else is going on here, and I think it can be solved without buying different subwoofers.

 

[ViciousDelicious]

Both JL Audio and B&W subs were configured with the same tools, heard through the same chain, were positioned in the same room, so if that change of sub makes such an obvious difference (to me and also 3 other people that auditioned it) then why would fronts affect this? Especially given the very good measured response, phase alignment, etc of the system. I would love not to buy new subs but I'm really out of ideas myself as to what I could measure / improve in the current setup.

The biggest difference curiously with the JL sub was the clarity of voices. I could easily pick up details in voices in music and movies that I couldn't before and could make out what everyone was saying much easier. The system also sounded much more 3d than usual. More people have noticed this with JL Subs (was stressed a lot in the stereophile review of both the fathoms 113 and 212's). Great sub extends the sound stage significantly and makes the system sound more detailed, NOT less. At least that's what I understood from reading around and hearing this sub myself.

 

[lovinthehd]

The single JL was positioned the same as the four B&Ws ? How does that work?

 

[ViciousDelicious]

I mean in the same room But that 1 sub was very close to one of the front ones from B&W, just right in front of the screen and not behind it.

 

[shadyJ]

One caveat here is that the 4 B&W's are driven with 2 of their Class D amps (500watts constant for each sub) so I am sure one could get better results by getting 4 amps, it might add a bit more impact and authority to the bass but I doubt it would affect the overall SQ. Even on paper just frequency response wise B&Ws can't touch either funk or JL audio. With 4 amps the price of the B&W solution would be more than 4 funks with some significant change and I think there would be absolutely no comparsion in performance, just based on JL Audio experience. Weaker amps would probably make my current subs compare more to Funk 18.0C.

Anotehr slight difference was that the JL Audio sub was right on the floor where as my current subs are on a bit of a pedestall behind the front wall where all of the equipment is on, it's about 40cm tall. I could see this adding couple more DB to the overall output, but since there'd be 4 JL Audios I'm not worried about that advtantage (if there is one at all), but rather I'm interested in pure sound quality. A lot of people also recommend not putting subs right on the floor as it might slightly improve room mode response in the floor/ceiling relationship.

The floor is exactly where you want the subs, not elevated at all. Otherwise you can run into cancellation where acoustic reflections off the floor nullify direct sound waves from the subs themselves. This is called the Allison Effect. Whoever told you to elevate the subs ...

One thing you should try is use one of the B&Ws in the same position with the same calibration as when you had the JL Audio sub.

 

[ViciousDelicious]

Reading up on the Allison effect it seems that people say it's usually around 3db and also not uniform especially when the speakers aren't fully symmterical relative to the walls in the room, which is the case in my room since the front wall has a huge slope (don't ask, weird basement construction in my house!) so that the pedestal on which the speakers are is about 40cm deep and after that we built a huge base trap with absorption, like this:

With having 4 subs at various heights across the room and this assymmterical front wall backend this should smooth out the cancellations quite a bit no?

It also says that the cancellations would happen around the band of the 1/4'th of the wavelenght. So at height of around 40cm this would be at around 1.6 meter long wave which would be around 200hz....

Which is brilliant because I am seeing a dip in front speakers right there! And I was wondering where that dip came from... Thanks so much for this tip!

The fronts have 2 woofers so one would be making a dip around 200hz and another around 170hz based on their respective heights from the floor. Amazing how accurate this seems to be!
Now if only I could understand the other dips in higher frequency range that Dirac has to work so hard to correct.


Regardless this probably doens't affect the subwoofer range as much then

 

[djreef]

Is it possible that one of your subs could be hooked up out of phase? I'm with Shady, that 4 B&W 15s would be that deficient does sound odd.

Group delay can be dealt with through trial and error placement. You'll probably want to stick with sealed just for the size factor alone, since you're going to be limited in your placement.

JL and Funk both make fine products, though I would give a decisive edge to the Funks. My earlier recommendation was based on you having actually heard the JLs in your room and was pleased with what you heard. Either way it's doubtful that you would be disappointed with either.

So, if you're set on going sealed, Nathan's cabinetry work is second to none (unless that doesn't matter to you, or they're going to be hidden) and the product he makes is rock solid. Give Funk a call and talk to him. He'll be able to clear up some things for you.

DJ

 

[ViciousDelicious]

We've checked all the subs, we have verified the phase by doing 2 things - measuring the impulse response and seeing that it aligns as well as verifying that we get the best frequency response curve in all frequencies with highest SPL without cancellations. B&W do not sound deficient, just not on the same quality level and transparency of the JL Audio that I auditioned.
Have you by any chance had the opportunity to hear both of the subs?

 

[djreef]

I have heard the JLs, but not the Funks. I live out in the middle of nowhere, so my options are limited to when I can get into Houston with a spare few hours to do auditions (like that ever happens any more). The Funks are ID made in Canada, so you kinda gotta know someone who has them. Unfortunately, I don't know anybody who has a pair.

DJ

 

[ViciousDelicious]

Been emailing with Nathan for the last week (he's been amazing to talk to, super fast to respond and very patient!) and a lot of things happened!

I decided to order a master slave pair of 2 18.0SEs (since these go behind the transparent wall) followed by another additional master slave pair if I like the first two (for total 4).
I was talking to Nathan about getting the ultimate sound quality and he suggested using the higher quality motor from the 21.0L sub.
Let's call these "Uber 18.0SE" from now on

The resulting sub would be able to do the following:

1. Perform as good as normal 18.0 above 60hz
2. Have about 2db less between 30-60hz compared to 18.0
3. Have actaully 2-3db more under 30hz compared to 18.0
4. Have a lot less distortion thought the entire range (has more linear travel as well) - much more musical

I feel like this is a great tradeoff since mostly you end up equing down in the 30-60 range due to room modes and under 30 is where the sub really can use the extra output.
Thanks to Nathan for being so flexible and striving to help his customers get the best most fitting product for them.
The sub with this new motor is considerably more expensive (and heavier) but it's worth it for me since I'm trying to get the best SQ possible out of my subs.

What has driven me to this decision is Nathans incredible customer service and also measurments on the databass as well as some things I was able to find on JL Audio Fathom 113v2 and 112 measurements shared in this thread.

Funk Audio 18.0 has the following advantages:

1. Overall more output - about 2-3db over JL Audio and with the new motor probably up to 6-7db more under 30hz than JL Audio. So 2 Funks should play like 4 JL Audio's in terms of output.
2. Funk plays much better above 100hz with a very nice low THD and flat response where as JL Audio decays and distortion rises after 80hz. This means I can cross higher and easier getting the best dynamics and SQ out of a system (Most people seem to agree that with a great sub going with higher crossover as high as 100 or 120 leads to the better sounding overall system, especially at refernece levels).
3. Funk plays much lower since there's no high pass filter so I can hopefully hit the single digits with meaningful response in my sealed room.
4. Funk has slightly better group delay, especially in lower frequencies
5. Funk seems to have a much better impulse response, the one that settles after about 5ms, where as JL Audio seems to still have "left over" vibrations for another 50ms.
6. Funk has a much much lower distortion level at all frequencies (especially below 30 and above 80) at much, much higher volume levels.
7. 4 "Uber 18.0SE's" still cost much less than 4 JL Audio Fathoms 113v2's.

I will try to get the JL Audio dealer to agree to bring the sub to do a head to head comparison so that I could write a proper review of those subs head to head in my room.

What more, I started talking to Nathan about his speakers and got really interested in those.
Luckily there was the 8.2 pair available so I will be lucky to be able to audition it with the first 2 subs when they arrive!
I will be able to compare the speakers to B&W CT 8.2 and 802 D3's with Classe. Given that 8.2p's will cost 30% (accounting for amplification) this will be very interesting.
I have a feeling that I will prefer Funks sound just knowing how crazy passionate and cutting edge Nathans products are but we will see! Can't get better than listening to both side by side.

I will post my impressions and reviews once these things will get here! CANT WAIT!