"4 Brand New In Box" McIntosh ML-1C speakers from 1977 Refoam or not???

[Rhopper1964]

I have 4 McIntosh ML-1C speakers that are brand new in box. New Old Stock. But from age of 45 yrs old, the foam surrounds have deteriorated. These came from the very end of the 7 year run of this model. The serial numbers are BL9817 thru 9820 out of a possible 9999. But no one knows if they even made them to 9999. They were going to modify these speakers and make them 1D models with lights to show clipping and blown fuse. But they scrapped that idea at the last moment. So the cabinets they had ordered with cut outs for these lights were covered with metal plates. And the boxes printed for the new 1D models were used and hand stamped over the 1D to say 1C as they ran out of the 1C boxes. I was told by the owner that these 4 speakers were the last ones made of production, and why they were never opened and used. But I have no way to confirm this as McIntosh hand written records are in a storage warehouse in boxes. So for re-sale purposes should I refoam and test them, taking away from their untouched state, or leave them original untouched? What would be best as these are very rare and might have some historical significance if I can find proof these were the last run batch.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

a very quick check of eBay and other sources tells me that these aren't as sought after as you think. To have a complete system, these used to come with an Mc Equilizer (MQ102/MQ102)

http://www.roger-russell.com/ml1cpg.htm

I'd say - the idea itself of selling non-functioning speakers to very bizarre. At the very least you should re-foam them yourself or pay for service.
More details here:

http://www.roger-russell.com/ml1cpg.htm

 

[Rhopper1964]

Thanks for your feedback. But just looking at ebay sales of used speakers doesn't really justify that these are not highly sought after. They made these for 7 yrs and was their first speaker model that they "mass" produced. There were other attempts. So yes, they are not the best or highest quality. But the significance here is these are 45 yrs old and untouched. Who buys speakers and saves them for 45 yrs without using them? So you wouldn't be able to find 4 of these in this condition anywhere else. And for a true collector these would be highly sought after, to have something you can't just get anywhere else. So that is why I don't know if I should refoam and test them. If I do that it takes away from its original state. There is no right or wrong answer. Just getting opinions is all. And I appreciate yours. Thanks

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

maybe Mark will have more insight and he's our resident expert on vintage audio.
@TLS Guy

 

[OHMisback]

"Mac is Mac" really doesn't include Mcintosh speakers. I'm not speaking ill of your speakers, they were never that popular.
The surrounds are one issue. The crossovers are another. 45 years is a long time. I have no idea what they used for parts, either.
How are the veneers and cloth?

Nostalgia is one thing, HiFi quality is another. I'm not so sure without a bit of work the speakers your referencing can't be bested
pretty easy. They don't have the following of Jensen Imperials or the older Klipsch Reference series. There is and was a reason.
I sure like their vintage gear. 50+ years for me..

The right person you're fine, good luck with that. There are full blown Mac junkies through and through. Don't loose all hope.

 

[Verdinut]

I have 4 McIntosh ML-1C speakers that are brand new in box. New Old Stock. But from age of 45 yrs old, the foam surrounds have deteriorated. These came from the very end of the 7 year run of this model. The serial numbers are BL9817 thru 9820 out of a possible 9999. But no one knows if they even made them to 9999. They were going to modify these speakers and make them 1D models with lights to show clipping and blown fuse. But they scrapped that idea at the last moment. So the cabinets they had ordered with cut outs for these lights were covered with metal plates. And the boxes printed for the new 1D models were used and hand stamped over the 1D to say 1C as they ran out of the 1C boxes. I was told by the owner that these 4 speakers were the last ones made of production, and why they were never opened and used. But I have no way to confirm this as McIntosh hand written records are in a storage warehouse in boxes. So for re-sale purposes should I refoam and test them, taking away from their untouched state, or leave them original untouched? What would be best as these are very rare and might have some historical significance if I can find proof these were the last run batch.

Those McIntosh speakers are not impressive. While their cabinet finish was excellent, their speaker drivers were really cheap. I know as I had seen them with one of my old friends who used to manage audio shops, when they were released. In my opinion, the foam surround replacement would need to have identical compliance than that of the original ones, and that is almost impossible to find 45 years later. It isn't worth putting any time and effort to fix them.
As already mentioned by someone else, they have never been very popular.

 

[Rhopper1964]

"Mac is Mac" really doesn't include Mcintosh speakers. I'm not speaking ill of your speakers, they were never that popular.
The surrounds are one issue. The crossovers are another. 45 years is a long time. I have no idea what they used for parts, either.
How are the veneers and cloth?

Nostalgia is one thing, HiFi quality is another. I'm not so sure without a bit of work the speakers your referencing can't be bested
pretty easy. They don't have the following of Jensen Imperials or the older Klipsch Reference series. There is and was a reason.
I sure like their vintage gear. 50+ years for me..

The right person you're fine, good luck with that. There are full blown Mac junkies through and through. Don't loose all hope.

When you say that they were not that popular. But according to serial numbers, they sold 30,000 of these over a 7 year period from 1970 - 1977. So they were some what popular. Back then not as many people has the money to afford such expensive equipment. These were $319 each in early 70s to $399 each in the late 70s. That's equal to nearly $2000 each today. And back then not as many could afford this as today. Also I understand these were not the "Top Dog" speakers of all the ones being manufactured by other companies such as JBL. But I'm still dealing with something pretty rare as to having 4 of these still brand new in the box after 45 years. I don't think anyone else today has 4 of these still brand new I. The box untouched. And I did pull one out for examination. The veneer is mint. The entire speaker itself is absolutely factory mint. The only issue showing is the foam surrounds are deteriorating. I did not do a visual inspection of the caps on the crossovers. But I was told they should be fine. They are not the electrolytic type used today. So not as much to worry about leakage or bulging as you would with today's type. McIntosh Labs said they should still be fine. So it's more just about replacing the foam surrounds on the woofer and mid only. The tweeters used paper and are fine. I just didn't want to change the originality of the product to someone who might not want them changed, or wants to do themselves or have a particular service place of their choice to do it. Mainly because we are talking about a pristine condition on these still brand new from the factory. If they were already used in anyway I would surely make the choice of having them re-foamed, tested, and serviced before selling. So I'm still trying to get input on if I should do this or leave them original and untouched. But I appreciate your comment. Thank you.

 

[TLS Guy]

maybe Mark will have more insight and he's our resident expert on vintage audio.
@TLS Guy

They were high priced junk new, and will still be junk if you re-foam them.

I am yet to hear a Mac speaker that was any good. Many made to look impressive, but with dreadful unbalanced sound.

Just give those speakers a decent burial and do everyone a favor. In addition they have equalizers that need a tape loop. That was trying vainly to put the lipstick on a pig.

 

[Rhopper1964]

Those McIntosh speakers are not impressive. While their cabinet finish was excellent, their speaker drivers were really cheap. I know as I had seen them with one of my old friends who used to manage audio shops, when they were released. In my opinion, the foam surround replacement would need to have identical compliance than that of the original ones, and that is almost impossible to find 45 years later. It isn't worth putting any time and effort to fix them.
As already mentioned by someone else, they have never been very popular.

Yes, I agree that these were not the best speaker you could buy back in the day. But they were good enough to keep selling for a 7 year span. Their main claim was how low the main driver could go. It was supposed to have achieved going down as low as 20hz. And achieving the lowest frequency of all speakers at that time. That all could be just talk, but it's what they wrote about these speakers. But yes, they were not the top choice of all speakers. They had their own niche in the market. The main thing is not how the quality of these were rated. But that I have 4 of these preserved brand new from the factory. And that why these particular ones are so rare. Show me ANYONE else that has 4 of these still brand new in the box. So in this sense they are super rare. Not that they were the best of the best, but still a collectors piece for some McIntosh lovers. I'm pretty sure there are some people out there that would love to have these to add to their collection. Maybe not solely as their main speakers but more a show piece. These cabinets will be in more MINT condition than any other speakers out there as they are factory new and flawless. That is worth having and showing. So I think some of you are missing the point here. I'm not claiming to own the Crown Jewels here of the best sounding speakers. Just 4 of the most perfect representations of this model of speaker. And that is what sets these apart from the rest. Not how good they are, but how pristine they are.

 

[everettT]

When you say that they were not that popular. But according to serial numbers, they sold 30,000 of these over a 7 year period from 1970 - 1977. So they were some what popular. Back then not as many people has the money to afford such expensive equipment. These were $319 each in early 70s to $399 each in the late 70s. That's equal to nearly $2000 each today. And back then not as many could afford this as today. Also I understand these were not the "Top Dog" speakers of all the ones being manufactured by other companies such as JBL. But I'm still dealing with something pretty rare as to having 4 of these still brand new in the box after 45 years. I don't think anyone else today has 4 of these still brand new I. The box untouched. And I did pull one out for examination. The veneer is mint. The entire speaker itself is absolutely factory mint. The only issue showing is the foam surrounds are deteriorating. I did not do a visual inspection of the caps on the crossovers. But I was told they should be fine. They are not the electrolytic type used today. So not as much to worry about leakage or bulging as you would with today's type. McIntosh Labs said they should still be fine. So it's more just about replacing the foam surrounds on the woofer and mid only. The tweeters used paper and are fine. I just didn't want to change the originality of the product to someone who might not want them changed, or wants to do themselves or have a particular service place of their choice to do it. Mainly because we are talking about a pristine condition on these still brand new from the factory. If they were already used in anyway I would surely make the choice of having them re-foamed, tested, and serviced before selling. So I'm still trying to get input on if I should do this or leave them original and untouched. But I appreciate your comment. Thank you.

As others mentioned, they were not great or even good speakers. McIntosh has made a few good ones over the years, most all were THX spec. Also, the serial number is not an indicator of sales, FWIW.

The JBL L220 we're $899 each in 78, and they were pretty decent speakers. The driver's alone are highly sought after all these years later. Just a pair of the tweeters go for over 1k. That was an expensive speaker to purchase in the 70s in my experience.

 

[Rhopper1964]

They were high priced junk new, and will still be junk if you re-foam them.

I am yet to hear a Mac speaker that was any good. Many made to look impressive, but with dreadful unbalanced sound.

Just give those speakers a decent burial and do everyone a favor. In addition they have equalizers that need a tape loop. That was trying vainly to put the lipstick on a pig.

I appreciate your opinion as everyone has one. But if they sounded that horrible, then I dont think they would have sold for a 7 year span. So they may not be to your liking, but maybe someone else does. And many felt this way about the Edsel also. But people still bought it. And someone somewhere would love to find one in a barn, sealed and untouched, with no miles on it. Just a reference, not and equal. The main point is NOT how they sound compared to other speakers produced. But that these are pristine and a part of audio history. So your point is they are worthless and should be tossed in the garbage. I don't think everyone in this world would agree with that. But thanks for you opinion, you are entitled to it.

 

[Rhopper1964]

As others mentioned, they were not great or even good speakers. McIntosh has made a few good ones over the years, most all were THX spec. Also, the serial number is not an indicator of sales, FWIW.

The JBL L220 we're $899 each in 78, and they were pretty decent speakers. The driver's alone are highly sought after all these years later. Just a pair of the tweeters go for over 1k. That was an expensive speaker to purchase in the 70s in my experience.

Yes serial numbers are totally an indication of sales. How do you not think so? They ran 5 different series of numbers. And small modification changes with each series. They wouldn't have kept selling these for 7 years if no one was buying them. I confirmed this through MAC Labs to the best of their records. As some records were lost due to moving and poor records storage. But yes, they did sell many of these. Now I will agree that there were other better companies making speakers. This wasn't MACs main line of profit, it was an added line. So no, they were the kings of speakers. But I don't think they were totally junk either. They have some value to some people and none to others. I'm just looking to the people who love and collect MAC stuff to maybe find a home for these. That's all.

 

[NINaudio]

Looks like you've already made up your mind that these are worthwhile to sell.

Since these are such a rare find I'd leave the rest in box unopened and see if you could find a Mac nut that really wants them. Chances are if someone really wants these speakers they'd either want to fix them themselves or they'd have a place in mind to fix them.

 

[Rhopper1964]

Of course they are worthwhile to sell. I wouldn't throw them away. And I think that I might just leave them as-is and see if they sell that way first. Then if not, I can always have them re-foamed and tested and they that way. Thanks

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Again, I've read all of the above opinions on these speakers. I've never heard them, but from what I see linked above in Roger's detailed review, without the EQ box, their FR seems fairly linear but lacks bass. EQ tried to address the bass but made the overall response less linear (not good).
Your opinions are your own, and what you decide to do with your speakers is your call to make, but just like buying a non-running vintage car (or a gun) because of "patina" (aka rust). Both of these examples should be functional. A vehicle should run, and a weapon should be safe to fire. Of course, both should keep their original appearance as possible, but perform regular maintenance!
Going back to speakers, either you refoam the speakers yourself or expect the buyer to do so. No sane person will buy these and keep them non-functional for "originality.". (There is a minuscule chance a hardcore Mac nut will want these non-functional and not-refoamed, who knows)

That is my personal opinion - feel free to disregard it.

 

[everettT]

Yes serial numbers are totally an indication of sales. How do you not think so? They ran 5 different series of numbers. And small modification changes with each series. They wouldn't have kept selling these for 7 years if no one was buying them. I confirmed this through MAC Labs to the best of their records. As some records were lost due to moving and poor records storage. But yes, they did sell many of these. Now I will agree that there were other better companies making speakers. This wasn't MACs main line of profit, it was an added line. So no, they were the kings of speakers. But I don't think they were totally junk either. They have some value to some people and none to others. I'm just looking to the people who love and collect MAC stuff to maybe find a home for these. That's all.

I'll rephrase, serial number are not necessarily indictive of volume of sales., Example, a manufacturer makes changes to a product (different woofer) and they skip a couple thousand serial numbers to make sure it is clear to the factory workers and customer service.

Regardless I was more interested in pointing out the speakers value if refoamed, because thats what I thought you wanted to know.

Good luck with the sale!

 

[TLS Guy]

They were high priced junk new, and will still be junk if you re-foam them.

I am yet to hear a Mac speaker that was any good. Many made to look impressive, but with dreadful unbalanced sound.

Just give those speakers a decent burial and do everyone a favor. In addition they have equalizers that need a tape loop. That was trying vainly to put the lipstick on a pig.

Well the first question is, do you have the equalizers? Do they work? If not what you have is useless. Next question is can you re-foam them yourself, or will you have to send them out? The next issue is, that I doubt there are new dust caps for those speakers. If not, then the speakers would have to be re-foamed without centering the VC gap with shims. If you try and re-foam without shims, then the chance of having gap rub is significant. If you glue it all up and find you have gap run, you are up the creek without the proverbial paddle!

Vintage gear is worth money, either because it is an interesting curio and or foot note to our history, or the product was an iconic trend setter, that brought about truly revolutionary changes, setting new benchmarks. Those speakers are NOT in any of those categories.

In the UK, where I grew up, we used to laugh at almost all American speakers. They were in the main really dreadful compared to KEF, Lowther and many others. The Quad ESL of 1957 was such an iconic product, as it set a totally new benchmark in accurate reproduction, but not the most powerful. However its development was highly significant. So a working pair of those in good cosmetic condition, justifiably is sought after by serious collectors, and they fetch high prices. Those speakers were of a time where iconic speakers such as AR and Advent were starting to break through. Your speakers did not. Those are the four way speakers we are talking about here. At that date crossover technology was not up to a four way design for sure.

I am a collector of vintage audio to a degree. A lot of it I'm the original owner of. However I can't resist the odd significant curio. For instance I restored a stand alone Dolby B decoder/encoder. I have had a working dbx II decoder, that does tape and LPs. I'm the original owner of that. But I have managed to scrounge a collection of dbx II encoded LPs. I have four vintage turntables, all in use. Most of the vintage gear I have connected, functional and ready foe use. Which brings me to the last point, it is most interesting if the function is at least comparable the standards prevailing today, even if it comes up short on convenience. Good for its day does not cut it it for me. It has to be very good or unusually interesting, period.
Those Mac speakers come up short on all of the above criteria.

 

[Trell]

Well the first question is, do you have the equalizers? Do they work? If not what you have is useless. Next question is can you re-foam them yourself, or will you have to send them out? The next issue is, that I doubt there are new dust caps for those speakers. If not, then the speakers would have to be re-foamed without centering the VC gap with shims. If you try and re-foam without shims, then the chance of having gap rub is significant. If you glue it all up and find you have gap run, you are up the creek without the proverbial paddle!

Vintage gear is worth money, either because it is an interesting curio and or foot note to our history, or the product was an iconic trend setter, that brought about truly revolutionary changes, setting new benchmarks. Those speakers are NOT in any of those categories.

In the UK, where I grew up, we used to laugh at almost all American speakers. They were in the main really dreadful compared to KEF, Lowther and many others. The Quad ESL of 1957 was such an iconic product, as it set a totally new benchmark in accurate reproduction, but not the most powerful. However its development was highly significant. So a working pair of those in good cosmetic condition, justifiably is sought after by serious collectors, and they fetch high prices. Those speakers were of a time where iconic speakers such as AR and Advent were starting to break through. Your speakers did not. Those are the four way speakers we are talking about here. At that date crossover technology was not up to a four way design for sure.

I am a collector of vintage audio to a degree. A lot of it I'm the original owner of. However I can't resist the odd significant curio. For instance I restored a stand alone Dolby B decoder/encoder. I have had a working dbx II decoder, that does tape and LPs. I'm the original owner of that. But I have managed to scrounge a collection of dbx II encoded LPs. I have four vintage turntables, all in use. Most of the vintage gear I have connected, functional and ready foe use. Which brings me to the last point, it is most interesting if the function is at least comparable the standards prevailing today, even if it comes up short on convenience. Good for its day does not cut it it for me. It has to be very good or unusually interesting, period.
Those Mac speakers come up short on all of the above criteria.

You replied to yourself so who exactly are you asking?

 

[OHMisback]

Yes serial numbers are totally an indication of sales. How do you not think so? They ran 5 different series of numbers. And small modification changes with each series. They wouldn't have kept selling these for 7 years if no one was buying them. I confirmed this through MAC Labs to the best of their records. As some records were lost due to moving and poor records storage. But yes, they did sell many of these. Now I will agree that there were other better companies making speakers. This wasn't MACs main line of profit, it was an added line. So no, they were the kings of speakers. But I don't think they were totally junk either. They have some value to some people and none to others. I'm just looking to the people who love and collect MAC stuff to maybe find a home for these. That's all.

Well OP that's the rub. It will be a new or old Mac person. BUT it will be a Mac person. I have nothing against transistor radios or a Chevy Corvair, but I don't use either. Mac speakers are in a league of their own and always have been. It's not considered a great speaker. Some models through the years were better than others. Second a lot of their speakers were sold to service men in other countries. I mean a whole lot. They stayed there and a lot were buried there too, Guam, Philippines, SE Asia, and Australia.
Mcintosh, Roberts and Thoren were all sold on most Base Exchanges around the world. 1965-85. They always had "Erector" sets, the board game "Monopoly" and "CCR" on 7.5 RtR, 4 track, 8 track, LP and Cassette.
It had something to do with J Edgar Hoover, I'm sure.