3 Speakers with 4 Wires

[tjtler36]

Hello,
So I recently moved into a new apartment and it has built in ceiling speakers, which I was excited about and I need to buy an amp to power them. Trouble is it has 3 speakers in an L shape. Which fits the shape of my apartment but I'm not sure which ones to put on the left and right channels. I'm not even sure what kind of amp powers 3 speakers. They seem to all power 2 speakers. More than that I was looking at the speakers and where they come out of the wall there are three sets of four wires. I assume each bundle goes to a speaker meaning each speaker has a green, black, red and white wire. Not sure what to do as I thought speakers have two wires normally.

The basics: Need to hook up 3 speakers with 4 wires. How???

Thanks for any help you can offer and let me know if I can provide more detail!

 

[lovinthehd]

There are amps in many different channel configurations; most home av receivers have 7 these days (and the speakers may have been left, right and center channels). Speakers normally have two wires, may want to pull a speaker out of the ceiling and see how the wire colors marry up to the speaker (they may have used two each of the four wires or twisted together a pair of each for example). Not sure why ceiling speakers would be all that exciting as IMO that's the least desirable location for speakers....while you're up there record the make and model number of the speakers...

 

[slipperybidness]

Yup, you need to get a look at the backs of the speakers and try to figure out how it is all wired up.

In general, I would not consider any built in speakers as an asset for a home. You are just starting to figure out why.

 

[tjtler36]

Cool, Thanks for the help so far. I'll take a speaker out tomorrow when I have time!

 

[tjtler36]

Alright, so I had time to take one out and it looks like it is a stereo speaker? Which is unexpected but alright. It's a Niles CM750si. All four wires definitely go to individual places. The Black and Red are next to each other and so are the white and green. I'll attach a photo! What kind of amp do I need to run three of these? A six speaker amp possibly? I've looked around but I can't find how anyone else is running these speakers...

Thanks again for all the help everyone!

 

[lovinthehd]

Can't say I've ever seen something quite like that. Stereo imaging from such a speaker seems gimmicky at best, putting three of them together each running stereo in the same room just doesn't sound like a good idea. Niles used to make multi-room home distribution amps but seems they're concentrating on the whole home automation thing and am not seeing those amps where I used to. Something like this might be used if each of these speakers (or a normal pair of stereo speakers) were in separate rooms as these sort of speakers are usually used....

What kind of audio gear do you have now, anything? What's your budget for setting yourself up with some audio? What would you use as a source of the audio if you buy an amp for these speakers? I'd maybe think about buying a used 6/7 channel receiver to use with those speakers and using an all stereo mode or something but it seems this would be more a frankenstein system.....

Personally I'd leave those speakers as is and get a receiver and a nice set of conventional box-style speakers and start from there....

 

[slipperybidness]

I'm making a guess here, but perhaps 1 set of wires goes to the tweeter and 1 set to the woofer.

So, 3 speakers in the ceiling? Each speaker has 4 wires going to it? So, the other end has 12 wires total?

You may have to take a look at the back of all the speakers, may need to post some more pics, etc.

The most likely person to help set you straight is @TLS Guy

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm making a guess here, but perhaps 1 set of wires goes to the tweeter and 1 set to the woofer.

So, 3 speakers in the ceiling? Each speaker has 4 wires going to it? So, the other end has 12 wires total?

You may have to take a look at the back of all the speakers, may need to post some more pics, etc.

The most likely person to help set you straight is @TLS Guy

Take a look at the speakers, each single speaker is "stereo" connected. It doesn't explain much in the literature I saw. The Niles SM750si brochure here https://www.manualslib.com/manual/299535/Niles-Cm750si.html

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm afraid the OP needs to turn his excitement to disdain!

This is the abortion we are dealing with.

So we have dual voice coil woofers, with the coils connected via low pass filters to a left right stereo pair. We have two tweeters close by pointing in vaguely different directions connected to high pass filters fed from the same left right stereo signal. This explains the four wires to each speaker!

Unfortunately although nominally 8 ohms, the spec states the minimum impedance as 6 ohms. The minimum impedance is much closer to what the impedance actually is than the nominal impedance. So absent an impedance curve the best rule of thumb is minimal impedance plus 10%. So you have to regard the speakers as 6.6 ohms. It is tempting to put the speakers in parallel. However that would make a 3.3 ohm load, and may be less as we don't know the impedance curve. This is low enough to damage all but the most expensive amps.

The bottom line is that the designer of this speaker and the installer are perfect fools.

So this set up would require a six channel amp. You might get a poor stereo image under each speaker, but I doubt even that. This set up is absolutely not worth the expense of investment in a six channel amp.

It gets worse, as the two woofer coils are going to be fed different signals, and a lot of them out of phase. There will be electromagnetic induction between the coils with induction of voltages different from the driving voltage. This will get fed back to the amp via the speaker wires. These voltages will be fed back through the amps negative feedback. The amp will therefore try to vigorously oppose these signals different from the amps output. This is highly likely to result in amp destruction.

You can never assume that just because a product is made and marketed, that it is any good, and safe to use. This product is totally ridiculous and I suspect has totaled at least one six channel amp and may be more.

These speakers need removal and given a decent burial at the recycling center. Under no circumstances, should any attempt be made to use them.

 

[slipperybidness]

I'm afraid the OP needs to turn his excitement to disdain!

This is the abortion we are dealing with.

So we have dual voice coil woofers, with the coils connected via low pass filters to a left right stereo pair. We have two tweeters close by pointing in vaguely different directions connected to high pass filters fed from the same left right stereo signal. This explains the four wires to each speaker!

Unfortunately although nominally 8 ohms, the spec states the minimum impedance as 6 ohms. The minimum impedance is much closer to what the impedance actually is than the nominal impedance. So absent an impedance curve the best rule of thumb is minimal impedance plus 10%. So you have to regard the speakers as 6.6 ohms. It is tempting to put the speakers in parallel. However that would make a 3.3 ohm load, and may be less as we don't know the impedance curve. This is low enough to damage all but the most expensive amps.

The bottom line is that the designer of this speaker and the installer are perfect fools.

So this set up would require a six channel amp. You might get a poor stereo image under each speaker, but I doubt even that. This set up is absolutely not worth the expense of investment in a six channel amp.

It gets worse, as the two woofer coils are going to be fed different signals, and a lot of them out of phase. There will be electromagnetic induction between the coils with induction of voltages different from the driving voltage. This will get fed back to the amp via the speaker wires. These voltages will be fed back through the amps negative feedback. The amp will therefore try to vigorously oppose these signals different from the amps output. This is highly likely to result in amp destruction.

You can never assume that just because a product is made and marketed, that it is any good, and safe to use. This product is totally ridiculous and I suspect has totaled at least one six channel amp and may be more.

These speakers need removal and given a decent burial at the recycling center. Under no circumstances, should any attempt be made to use them.

Well, sure seems like a train wreck, after reading that.

I will reiterate--Never consider speakers or HT gear in a house purchase as an asset! The reality is that existing gear turns out to be a liability more often than not! Very likely that the person that owned the house before you had absolutely no clue what they were doing, and likely that their installers also had no clue. Seen it too many times to count.

@TLS Guy
Just to confirm--You are saying the woofer is dual-voice-coil, and by design, you are supposed to hook up the left channel to 1 VC, and the right channel to the 2nd VC on the same woofer?!?!???

I think that is what you said, right?

But, I can't even begin to fathom how that could possibly work!

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, sure seems like a train wreck, after reading that.

I will reiterate--Never consider speakers or HT gear in a house purchase as an asset! The reality is that existing gear turns out to be a liability more often than not! Very likely that the person that owned the house before you had absolutely no clue what they were doing, and likely that their installers also had no clue. Seen it too many times to count.

@TLS Guy
Just to confirm--You are saying the woofer is dual-voice-coil, and by design, you are supposed to hook up the left channel to 1 VC, and the right channel to the 2nd VC on the same woofer?!?!???

I think that is what you said, right?

But, I can't even begin to fathom how that could possibly work!

You are correct and it is insane.

 

[tjtler36]

Well dang, I guess I'll just ignore them and get something else. Thank you so much for all the help!

 

[BMXTRIX]

Single Speaker Stereo is a common product from most of the higher end in-wall/ceiling speaker manufacturers. It is used to increase the sound stage without the need to make additional holes in the ceiling and is most commonly a design recommendation for bathrooms, closets, hallways, and laundry rooms. It is not common in a kitchen or dining room or other large space, but sometimes is used.

They should be addressed as a standard stereo speaker pair. So, while it appears to be 3 speakers, treat it like 6 speakers, which means a six (or high) channel amplifier to run them as standard audio distribution.

This is the first model that popped into my head:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonance-Sonamp-260x3-3-Channel-Home-Power-Amplifier-260-/371915173089?hash=item5697df2ce1:g:ZoQAAOSwUKxYeDUQ

It's a 6 channel amplifier with a single audio source shared among the six amplified outputs. Each output will need a volume controller of some sort if that's still needed.

The other option would be a more standard 2 channel amplifer:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonance-SONAMP-275-SE-2-Channel-Power-Amplifier-/142339425724?hash=item21241745bc:g:xP4AAOSwhQhYyKZe

The put in a speaker selector with integrated volume control that balances the load like this:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=niles+svl-6&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC0.A0.H0.Xniles+svl.TRS1&_nkw=niles+svl&_sacat=0

(SVL-4 or SVL-6 with all the connectors on the back!)

That will protect the amplifier, allow for volume control, and give you a single source which can be shared out to multiple speakers.

If you enjoy walking your home with audio playing everywhere, then in-ceiling speakers can be very enjoyable and allows for even audio playback throughout your home. It's great at parties for background audio, or to play the game without having to crank up the TV. Some don't like it, but to each their own.

There's no reason to say 'dang' if you want to use what is there as it sounds like they are setup decently and should work very well.

 

[tjtler36]

Single Speaker Stereo is a common product from most of the higher end in-wall/ceiling speaker manufacturers. It is used to increase the sound stage without the need to make additional holes in the ceiling and is most commonly a design recommendation for bathrooms, closets, hallways, and laundry rooms. It is not common in a kitchen or dining room or other large space, but sometimes is used.

They should be addressed as a standard stereo speaker pair. So, while it appears to be 3 speakers, treat it like 6 speakers, which means a six (or high) channel amplifier to run them as standard audio distribution.

This is the first model that popped into my head:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonance-Sonamp-260x3-3-Channel-Home-Power-Amplifier-260-/371915173089?hash=item5697df2ce1:g:ZoQAAOSwUKxYeDUQ

It's a 6 channel amplifier with a single audio source shared among the six amplified outputs. Each output will need a volume controller of some sort if that's still needed.

The other option would be a more standard 2 channel amplifer:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonance-SONAMP-275-SE-2-Channel-Power-Amplifier-/142339425724?hash=item21241745bc:g:xP4AAOSwhQhYyKZe

The put in a speaker selector with integrated volume control that balances the load like this:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=niles+svl-6&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC0.A0.H0.Xniles+svl.TRS1&_nkw=niles+svl&_sacat=0

(SVL-4 or SVL-6 with all the connectors on the back!)

That will protect the amplifier, allow for volume control, and give you a single source which can be shared out to multiple speakers.

If you enjoy walking your home with audio playing everywhere, then in-ceiling speakers can be very enjoyable and allows for even audio playback throughout your home. It's great at parties for background audio, or to play the game without having to crank up the TV. Some don't like it, but to each their own.

There's no reason to say 'dang' if you want to use what is there as it sounds like they are setup decently and should work very well.

Wow, thanks for your input. I really was just looking for a way to get background music throughout my apartment so I really appreciate the simple solution! Like sincerely!

 

[BMXTRIX]

Wow, thanks for your input. I really was just looking for a way to get background music throughout my apartment so I really appreciate the simple solution! Like sincerely!

No problem at all. I mean, the speakers are already there, and while I'm not a fan of in-wall/ceiling speakers for critical listening, I love my in-wall/ceiling setup for parties, and when I'm doing chores. Crank the music up and scrub the toilets!
No, it's not glamorous, but it's fun, which some seem to forget this all is.
For $200 to enjoy it, I certainly wouldn't give it more than half a thought, and Niles is a highly respected company in the world of distributed audio.