12 year old AVR upgraded now, and have tried two new ones with disappointment

M

Mclovin

Enthusiast
currently I have arendal 1723 towers and center and a 13 inch svs sub. These ran pretty well with an older denon 2310ci but wanted to push them harder with an external amp and that avr had no preouts to do so. So i upgraded to an rz50.. wasnt to happy with sound or layout so retuned and went for the denon 3800. Ran audessy and sounded pretty good for tv but any volume on stereo was distorted and pretty bad.. so spent some more money and got the dirac.. just ran that yesterday and again, very distored at volume.. like you would think these were walmart speakers. Currenly not running external amp yet, just doing slow updates. sound is subjective however this is not.. old avr is night and day difference.

So i guess what is the problem? Are they putting much cheaper amps in current AVRs? I did notice a major weight difference with the new one being much lighter. Very expensive upgrade for some preoouts. And yes i know it does much more with home theater, and i do plan on going back that way again in time, however i would expect just as good a sound (will better) in stereo sound this many days later. Hopefully external amp will be the cure. maybe voltage drop do to amp hungary speakers making it sound bad at levels, like internal cant keep up? Hate to keep putting money in for more disappointment.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
currently I have arendal 1723 towers and center and a 13 inch svs sub. These ran pretty well with an older denon 2310ci but wanted to push them harder with an external amp and that avr had no preouts to do so. So i upgraded to an rz50.. wasnt to happy with sound or layout so retuned and went for the denon 3800. Ran audessy and sounded pretty good for tv but any volume on stereo was distorted and pretty bad.. so spent some more money and got the dirac.. just ran that yesterday and again, very distored at volume.. like you would think these were walmart speakers. Currenly not running external amp yet, just doing slow updates. sound is subjective however this is not.. old avr is night and day difference.

So i guess what is the problem? Are they putting much cheaper amps in current AVRs? I did notice a major weight difference with the new one being much lighter. Very expensive upgrade for some preoouts. And yes i know it does much more with home theater, and i do plan on going back that way again in time, however i would expect just as good a sound (will better) in stereo sound this many days later. Hopefully external amp will be the cure. maybe voltage drop do to amp hungary speakers making it sound bad at levels, like internal cant keep up? Hate to keep putting money in for more disappointment.
The problem is those speakers. I know you don't want to hear this, but those speakers are a very bad design. Those 173s have a passive crossover at 120 Hz. That will upset an awful lot of power amps.

I did a similar design about 30 years ago, and quickly realized my mistake. The load it presents is not good, and likely to upset a lot of amps. I binned my design in a hurry and learned NEVER to do that again. In addition, it makes the speaker almost impossible to integrate with a sub accurately. Shady alluded to all this, in his review of the speakers. The physics of it all will be the same for Arundel as it was for me.

If you want to keep those speakers you will have to use external amps, and very robust ones. Since this new receiver is complaining, I would stop driving those speakers with it right now. If you don't I think you will see the red light of death on it really soon. If you are going to design speakers like yours the only solution is an active design. There is no good passive solution.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
I am still using a 2310ci but plan to upgrade as I just purchased a 4k TV. Power rating on the 3800H is identical to the 2310ci but if the power supply is under spec perhaps you're having some current delivery issues with those speakers. Any chance the shop will let you try a beefier 2-channel amp for your mains?

ASR did a detailed review of the 3800H but on paper the performance should be pretty similar to your previous AVR. The 4800H did review better but you can probably pick up a used 2-channel amp for less than the upgrade cost.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I am still using a 2310ci but plan to upgrade as I just purchased a 4k TV. Power rating on the 3800H is identical to the 2310ci but if the power supply is under spec perhaps you're having some current delivery issues with those speakers. Any chance the shop will let you try a beefier 2-channel amp for your mains?

ASR did a detailed review of the 3800H but on paper the performance should be pretty similar to your previous AVR. The 4800H did review better but you can probably pick up a used 2-channel amp for less than the upgrade cost.
The problem is those speakers should never have seen the light of day. If you do a passive crossover at 120 Hz, you have a massive inductor with a high DC resistance with high inductance in series with the VC. When you analyze it critically you see the mistake. A design like that is an absolute indication for an active design. Those speakers will upset a lot of amps.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
currently I have arendal 1723 towers and center and a 13 inch svs sub. These ran pretty well with an older denon 2310ci but wanted to push them harder with an external amp and that avr had no preouts to do so. So i upgraded to an rz50.. wasnt to happy with sound or layout so retuned and went for the denon 3800. Ran audessy and sounded pretty good for tv but any volume on stereo was distorted and pretty bad.. so spent some more money and got the dirac.. just ran that yesterday and again, very distored at volume.. like you would think these were walmart speakers. Currenly not running external amp yet, just doing slow updates. sound is subjective however this is not.. old avr is night and day difference.

So i guess what is the problem? Are they putting much cheaper amps in current AVRs? I did notice a major weight difference with the new one being much lighter. Very expensive upgrade for some preoouts. And yes i know it does much more with home theater, and i do plan on going back that way again in time, however i would expect just as good a sound (will better) in stereo sound this many days later. Hopefully external amp will be the cure. maybe voltage drop do to amp hungary speakers making it sound bad at levels, like internal cant keep up? Hate to keep putting money in for more disappointment.
Following TLS Guy's reply with whom I entirely agree, should you decide to use external amplification at reasonable cost, let me suggest you this pro audio amplifier which is used in Cineplex theaters across North America. It meets THX requirements:
In my HT system, I'm using four QSC amps. These have excellent specs and you can't blow them. You can purchase them only from theater equipment distributors.
Should you wish to get one of QSC's products, if you contact me, I shall be pleased to give you name of two distributors in US that sell their amps at discount.
 
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M

Mclovin

Enthusiast
The problem is those speakers. I know you don't want to hear this, but those speakers are a very bad design. Those 173s have a passive crossover at 120 Hz. That will upset an awful lot of power amps.

I did a similar design about 30 years ago, and quickly realized my mistake. The load it presents is not good, and likely to upset a lot of amps. I binned my design in a hurry and learned NEVER to do that again. In addition, it makes the speaker almost impossible to integrate with a sub accurately. Shady alluded to all this, in his review of the speakers. The physics of it all will be the same for Arundel as it was for me.

If you want to keep those speakers you will have to use external amps, and very robust ones. Since this new receiver is complaining, I would stop driving those speakers with it right now. If you don't I think you will see the red light of death on it really soon. If you are going to design speakers like yours the only solution is an active design. There is no good passive solution.
Damn. Well I do plan on going external.. just wanted to make sure that lack if power was my issue to bad sound. Crazy that my older denon handled it well. It did shut down when too hot.. but until then.. it rocked these speakers. I'm guessing they put more love into internal amps back then. Now they just focus on the latest blue tooth technology. Also cheap as junk remotes compared go back then when they actually had a flap with a billion buttons so you didn't have to use cursor. Anyways... any suggestions for amps? Thinking 3 channel.. then if I get more speakers I could power them with avr
 
M

Mclovin

Enthusiast
Following TLS Guy's reply with whom I entirely agree, should you decide to use external amplification at reasonable cost, let me suggest you this pro audio amplifier which is used in Cineplex theaters across North America. It meets THX requirements:
In my HT system, I'm using four QSC amps. These have excellent specs and you can't blow them. You can purchase them only from theater equipment distributors.
Should you wish to get one of QSC's products, if you contact me, I shall be pleased to give you name of two distributors in US that sell their amps at discount.
Hmm.. never heard of them. Do they make a 3 channel? Warm.. neutral sound.. bright? Price?
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
The problem is those speakers should never have seen the light of day. If you do a passive crossover at 120 Hz, you have a massive inductor with a high DC resistance with high inductance in series with the VC. When you analyze it critically you see the mistake. A design like that is an absolute indication for an active design. Those speakers will upset a lot of amps.
I'm just trying to reason why the older AVR did not have any issues when both have the same power spec of 105W/ch. I'm only running a 5.1 system while the 2310ci can handle 7.1 and my Paradigms are reasonably well behaved, so I have never encountered any issues where I felt the amps where underpowered. I have a relatively small space, though. If the op managed to get that AVR to overheat and shut down then it appears that he's driving it to its limit.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hmm.. never heard of them. Do they make a 3 channel? Warm.. neutral sound.. bright? Price?
Good amps won't change the sound. They just deliver what is fed into them.

If you want a three channel amp, this one will probably fit the bill.

QSC amps are pro amps and would be a good choice, but you will need two and have a spare channel for now. A pro amp for those speakers may be a good choice though as they tend to be more bullet proof.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm just trying to reason why the older AVR did not have any issues when both have the same power spec of 105W/ch. I'm only running a 5.1 system while the 2310ci can handle 7.1 and my Paradigms are reasonably well behaved, so I have never encountered any issues where I felt the amps where underpowered. I have a relatively small space, though. If the op managed to get that AVR to overheat and shut down then it appears that he's driving it to its limit.
When you design a speaker like that it will be really current hungry and create highly adverse amp conditions. It would not be wise to drive those speakers with any receiver. Bullet proof pro amps are in order here.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Hmm.. never heard of them. Do they make a 3 channel? Warm.. neutral sound.. bright? Price?
Amplifiers have a super flat frequency response so technically they should not impart any sound character and should all be neutral. I see TLS Guy mentioned the Monolith 3x200. I was going to mention that one as well. Outlaw Audio has also been popular on here and Crown Audio also makes amplifiers that can handle lower impedance speakers. You can find Crown amps on the used market on occasion but watch for fan noise as some are targeted at the pro market where fan noise is not an issue but will be in a home audio setting.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hmm.. never heard of them. Do they make a 3 channel? Warm.. neutral sound.. bright? Price?
I think you said you live in New Zealand. What amps are available to you there?
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Hmm.. never heard of them. Do they make a 3 channel? Warm.. neutral sound.. bright? Price?
No, only a 4 channel one which I use for my surround channels, the DCA-1824. The amps are slightly less powerful than those on the DCA-1622.
Their sound is absolutely neutral like that of every high quality amplifier.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
As an alternative to QSC amps, the Monolith 3 X 300 watts/ch at 4 ohms amp represents a good option. At present, it is out of stock but should be back to availability soon. It's a very popular product and also well built. The QSC DCA 1622 amps are slightly more powerful however.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
What sort of settings are you using in the avr "for music"? It does sound odd that relatively similar amp sections would be sounding radically different (and I have a 3808, 4520 and a 4700). If you do go external you might also check out something like these:

I use several Crown XLS amps, they work well but no 3ch unit that I know of

If you're in NZ that could change things as to what's available.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So i guess what is the problem? Are they putting much cheaper amps in current AVRs? I did notice a major weight difference with the new one being much lighter.
There is no way the new one is much lighter, unless you have a typo in your post.

AVR-2310CI......................24 lbs
AVR-X3800H.....................27.6 lbs

As Eppie mentioned, aside from the features, you old and new AVRs should be very comparable in terms of power output. So, all else being equal, if the old one does not distort for your application, then the new one should not distort either.

Having said that, neither AVRs are considered suitable for your 4 ohm speakers, let alone the crossover issues TLGGuy and Verdinut pointed out. You have been fine with the little 24 lbs AVR-2310CI, likely because you don't listen very loud, and/or sits not too far, such as only 7 to 10 ft from those tower speakers.

Other than that, either you unit is detective, or you are doing something wrong. To help narrow down the caused, more information are needed, such as the following:

- Did it distort in direct mode, and pure direct mode?
- How many channels was it driving, or it would distort regardless, even just 2 channel stereo?
- Are you doing anything different than when using the old AVR?
- Does it distort only when you crank the volume pass a certain point, if so, at what point, example: 0, -15, -10 etc.?
- Do you still have the AVR-2310CI? If so, have you put it back on and see if it is still fine without distortion, that's just to find out if anything else might have changed.

What about the other channels, do they sound distorted too?

Edit: One other thing, did you have the impedance setting set to 4 ohms? If you did, that could also be a contributor, as it would limit current to your 4 ohm speakers and could result in distorted sound at volume setting lower than if you had it set to 8 ohms.
 
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everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
currently I have arendal 1723 towers and center and a 13 inch svs sub. These ran pretty well with an older denon 2310ci but wanted to push them harder with an external amp and that avr had no preouts to do so. So i upgraded to an rz50.. wasnt to happy with sound or layout so retuned and went for the denon 3800. Ran audessy and sounded pretty good for tv but any volume on stereo was distorted and pretty bad.. so spent some more money and got the dirac.. just ran that yesterday and again, very distored at volume.. like you would think these were walmart speakers. Currenly not running external amp yet, just doing slow updates. sound is subjective however this is not.. old avr is night and day difference.

So i guess what is the problem? Are they putting much cheaper amps in current AVRs? I did notice a major weight difference with the new one being much lighter. Very expensive upgrade for some preoouts. And yes i know it does much more with home theater, and i do plan on going back that way again in time, however i would expect just as good a sound (will better) in stereo sound this many days later. Hopefully external amp will be the cure. maybe voltage drop do to amp hungary speakers making it sound bad at levels, like internal cant keep up? Hate to keep putting money in for more disappointment.
Just a note: I wouldn't use the "all channel stereo" sound setting as that would definitely become an issue except at the lowest volumes, both stress on the amp section and distortion in the speakers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Just a note: I wouldn't use the "all channel stereo" sound setting as that would definitely become an issue except at the lowest volumes, both stress on the amp section and distortion in the speakers.
Here’s a thought. If that were the case, why would all these AVRs have this “all channel stereo” mode? :D

If this were the case, all these companies are just asking for lawsuits. :D

I don’t like the sound of 11CH Stereo. But I have used it at my usual loud listening volume. If Gene were to measure a Yamaha AVR at 11CH driven, it would shut down for sure.

So my point is, these 11CH stereo modes aren’t as hard on the AVR as some people say. Otherwise, there would be some lawsuits.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
currently I have arendal 1723 towers and center and a 13 inch svs sub. These ran pretty well with an older denon 2310ci but wanted to push them harder with an external amp and that avr had no preouts to do so. So i upgraded to an rz50.. wasnt to happy with sound or layout so retuned and went for the denon 3800. Ran audessy and sounded pretty good for tv but any volume on stereo was distorted and pretty bad.. so spent some more money and got the dirac.. just ran that yesterday and again, very distored at volume.. like you would think these were walmart speakers. Currenly not running external amp yet, just doing slow updates. sound is subjective however this is not.. old avr is night and day difference.

So i guess what is the problem? Are they putting much cheaper amps in current AVRs? I did notice a major weight difference with the new one being much lighter. Very expensive upgrade for some preoouts. And yes i know it does much more with home theater, and i do plan on going back that way again in time, however i would expect just as good a sound (will better) in stereo sound this many days later. Hopefully external amp will be the cure. maybe voltage drop do to amp hungary speakers making it sound bad at levels, like internal cant keep up? Hate to keep putting money in for more disappointment.
What do you mean by “distorted sound”? Cracking static-like sound?
 
M

Mclovin

Enthusiast
What sort of settings are you using in the avr "for music"? It does sound odd that relatively similar amp sections would be sounding radically different (and I have a 3808, 4520 and a 4700). If you do go external you might also check out something like these:

I use several Crown XLS amps, they work well but no 3ch unit that I know of

If you're in NZ that could change things as to what's available.
Love my blues.. but a lilttle teckno as well for example Jon Blonmquist "taxi" the older unit would handle detailed highs and craxy accurate mids in this track. (like bad ass put a smile on your face), and the new unit at full power (volume 90) was a bore. Maybe needed some mid level frequncies tweaked raised but unit was out of headroom at this point.
 

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