1080p or marketing BS ??

C

CitronBull

Junior Audioholic
I read this in one of the forums and I want to know your opinion:


Pay attention, class. There will be a test at the end of this class.

1080p does not matter. Here's why:

There are a number of facts that must be grasped first:

All digital displays are progressive scan by nature.
Virtually all film releases are shot at 24 frames per second and are progressive scan.
1080i delivers 30 frames per second, and 1080p delivers 60 frames per second.
All HDTV broadcasts and virtually all games will be limited to 720p or 1080i for the foreseeable future.

Got all that? Good. Now lets go into the explanation.

Movies

Take a movie. It's 24 frames per second, progressive scan. This is the nature of how movies are shot on film today. Just about all movies are shot this way; the only exceptions are films where the director or producer wants to make an artistic statement. But if you saw it at your local multiplex, it's in 24fps progressive.

Now, let's put it onto a disc so we can sell it. First, we scan each individual frame of the movie, one by one, at a super high resolution (far higher than even 1080p.) This gives us a digital negative of the film, from which every digital version of the film will be made (this means the HD, DVD, On-demand, PPV, digital download, digital cable and PSP versions were all made from this one digital negative.) We'll only concern ourselves with the HD version for now.

Because it's HD, we'll take the digital negative and re-encode it in MPEG2, .h264 or VC1 at 1920x1080 and 24 frames per second to match the source material. And this is how it is on the disc when you get it from the store, whether it's Blu-ray or HD-DVD.

Once you put it in your disc player to view the film, a number of things happen.

1080i/1080p
Because the film is in 24fps, and 1080i is 30fps, every second the player has to come up with 6 additional frames to make up the gap. It does this through a process called 3:2 pulldown whereby 4 film frames (1/6th of a second of the film) are processed to create 5 video frames (1/6th of a second on your TV screen). Just exactly how this is done is outside the scope of this post (click here) but the important thing to realize is none of the picture data is lost during this process; just re-formatted.

Now, here's the crucial difference between 1080i and 1080p, as it relates to movies. With 1080i transmission, the player interlaces the frames during the pulldown and sends the interlaced frames to the TV set to be deinterlaced. With 1080p transmission, the player never interlaces the frames. Click to see how deinterlacing works. Regardless, you will get the exact same result. The only exception is if you have a crap TV that doesn't deinterlace properly, but chances are that TV won't support 1080p anyway.

So 1080p doesn't matter for movies.

Television

Television is a little different. Television is typically not shot on film, it's shot on video which is a vastly different technique. While movies are almost always shot at 24fps, standard-def NTSC TV is shot at 30fps interlaced, and HDTV is shot at whatever the production company decides, usually 1080i at 30fps, or 720p at 60fps, depending on the network. What, no 1080p? Nope. Why? Bandwidth.

The American ATSC standard gives each broadcaster 19.4Mbps to transmit video for each broadcast channel. Broadcasters are free to transmit as many streams as they want as long as the total bandwidth for all the channels does not exceed 19.4Mbps. Consider that one 1080i stream compressed using MPEG2 at decent quality takes up about 12Mbps. Now consider that an equivalent 1080p stream will take up twice that bandwidth. You can see why nobody does 1080p, and this situation will not change until a new encoding standard arrives, which won't happen for at least another decade.

So 1080p doesn't matter for television.

Games

Ah, now we come to the heart of the matter. Games. The reason why there will be very few 1080p games is a simple one: lack of memory. All graphics cards, including those found in Xbox 360 and PS3, have what's known as a frame-buffer. This is a chunk of memory set aside to store the color information of every pixel that makes up a frame that will be sent to the screen. Every single calculation the graphics card makes is designed to figure out how to fill up the frame-buffer so it can send the contents of the frame-buffer to the screen.

Time to break out the calculators, because we're doing some math.

A 720p frame is 1280 pixels wide by 720 pixels high. That means one 720p frame contains 921,600 pixels. Today's graphics cards use 32-bit color for the final frame. This means each pixel requires 32 bits - 4 bytes - to represent its color information. 921,600x4 = 3,686,400 bytes or a little over 3.5MB.

A 1080i frame is 1920 pixels wide by 540 high. That's 1,036,800 pixels, 4,147,200 bytes or a little less than 4MB.

Now, a 1080p frame. 1920 wide by 1080 high. 2,073,600 pixels, 8,294,400 bytes, a smidgen less than 8MB.

Ooh, but the 360 has 512MB, and the PS3 has 256MB for graphics. How is 8MB going to hurt? Oh, it hurts. Graphics cards will have several internal frame-buffers to handle different rendering passes, and each one requires memory. And the textures and mapping surfaces all have to fit within that same memory space. In the case of the 360, there's also audio and game data fighting for the same space (though the "space" is twice as big on Xbox 360.) That's why GTHD looked like crap, because in order to get it running in 1080p, they sacrificed most of the rendering passes and other effects.

This is why the vast, vast majority of Xbox 360 and PS3 next-gen games will stick to 1080i or 720p.

So 1080p doesn't matter for games.

In conclusion, 1080p does not matter. Period. If you think it does, you're just buying in to Sony's marketing hype.

Class dismissed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I hope you have tenure, cause otherwise you're fired. ;)

The main reason for wanting 1080p is resolution. You can have a bigger screen and sit closer to it. If only for that reason, it's a great thing.

Not sure what Sony has to do with 1080p.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
1080p is not 60 frames per second by default. 1080p is much more likely going to end up being 24 frames per second and 1080p displays will beging taking advantage of that refresh rate for movies. This is really something that matters a great deal to front projection owners who want the most cinematic experience in their home. Not just having movies that are encoded at 24fps on the disc, but being able to get the video off the disc at 24fps. This is something that is expected to become pretty darn standard for Blu-ray and possibly HD-DVD down the road. Once you have 1080/24p coming out of the video player, you can feed it to a display that has the capability of displaying 1080/24p at a true 24hz rate. Just like in film, you get an honest 24 frames per second and a perfect match. No conversion to 60 frames per second as stated, which causes bad things - most notably judder in the image.

This is considered the current holy grail of home cinema as far as I can tell, and already there are projectors coming to the market that accept 1080/24p input resolution. Those numbers most definitely will be going up over time, not down, and you will begin to see 1080/24p emerge as a potential true standard.

For TV, no, it doesn't matter... right now. Probably not for any forseeable future either. Though, 1080/24p actually can achieve higher video quality at the same bit rate than 1080/60i can. So, should converter boxes start accepting 1080/24p, perhaps some broadcasters would use it for their movies. But, I sure wouldn't bet on that.

For video games - there was no arguement made. 1080/60p is better - period. But, it may not be achievable in any realistic manner with the newest video game consoles. But, that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. For the serious gamer, it is possible that they could build their own gaming PC and feed 1080/60p to the display that way.

But, in the end, it DOES matter, and looking forward, it will matter more and more. Throwing your hands up and saying it doesn't matter NOW is very short sighted on the part of some individuals. It is what causes buyers remorse and forces upgrades in gear far sooner than necessary. Especially on gear that may be fairly expensive. Do it right, do it right the first time... Think about the display lasting you TEN years - not 2 - then you begin to realize that 1080p is a mostly untapped resource that will come more and more into play over the upcoming years.
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
I read somewhere that the way that the Blue-ray player outputs 1080p is by taking the 1080p signal off the disc and interlacing it to 1080i in the same way as the HD-DVD players, but just before the output stage the Blue-ray deinterlaces it back to 1080p. Interesting, so much for taking it straight off the disc and shooting it through the outputs untouched:rolleyes:

But I keep hearing that with todays chips you can deinterlace and interlace back and forth at 1080 lines and not loose any information.

cheers:)
 
MACCA350 said:
I read somewhere that the way that the Blue-ray player outputs 1080p is by taking the 1080p signal off the disc and interlacing it to 1080i in the same way as the HD-DVD players, but just before the output stage the Blue-ray deinterlaces it back to 1080p. Interesting, so much for taking it straight off the disc and shooting it through the outputs untouched
Apparently the Samsung BD-P1000 works that way - that's not to say that every player will do that.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
MACCA350 said:
I read somewhere that the way that the Blue-ray player outputs 1080p is by taking the 1080p signal off the disc and interlacing it to 1080i in the same way as the HD-DVD players, but just before the output stage the Blue-ray deinterlaces it back to 1080p. Interesting, so much for taking it straight off the disc and shooting it through the outputs untouched:rolleyes:

But I keep hearing that with todays chips you can deinterlace and interlace back and forth at 1080 lines and not loose any information.

cheers:)
You can not deinterlace 1080/60p back to 1080/60i without getting rid of half the lines. If the source originated at 1080/60p then you most definitely lose information. If the source began as 1080/24p then you should not lose any information at all.

As said above: The 1080p->1080i->1080p thing is a Samsung player deal, not a BD deal. So, future implementations by Panasonic, Sony, and Pioneer will possibly support native from the disc resolutions.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
As an aside I'm really anxious for news from CEDIA this year...I'm eager to see the next gen of 1080 digital PJs. There's at least one 1080P capable LCD coming from Mitsubishi and at least one 1080P DLP model from Optoma. I'm practically foaming at the mouth to get details and street pricing!:D

When is CEDIA? Can't be long now.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Rob Babcock said:
As an aside I'm really anxious for news from CEDIA this year...I'm eager to see the next gen of 1080 digital PJs. There's at least one 1080P capable LCD coming from Mitsubishi and at least one 1080P DLP model from Optoma. I'm practically foaming at the mouth to get details and street pricing!:D

When is CEDIA? Can't be long now.
I'll be at CEDIA in two weeks. Since I've been doing stuff with Projector Central a good deal in the past couple of years, I will be focussing heavily on exactly what you are looking for. I will try to get a camera onto the floor for some digiclicks of what things look like as well as all the specs and hopefully street pricing... or at least MSRP.

As I said in another post - 1080/24p is VERY interesting to me in a projector... so 1080p is the first step to it.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
BMXTRIX said:
I'll be at CEDIA in two weeks. Since I've been doing stuff with Projector Central a good deal in the past couple of years, I will be focussing heavily on exactly what you are looking for. I will try to get a camera onto the floor for some digiclicks of what things look like as well as all the specs and hopefully street pricing... or at least MSRP.
Oooh, keep us posted! Pics would rock. I'm stoked at the thought of the '81 & its matching scaler. Anamorphic 1080P, anyone?:D



BMXTRIX said:
As I said in another post - 1080/24p is VERY interesting to me in a projector... so 1080p is the first step to it.
That would be ideal. Actually, a 1080/24p setting for film, with another setting for higher framerate digital HD cameras...if we can get Hollywood to bite! Bye-bye, motion blur!:D
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I would hope that shooting HD television would go to 1080/60p and then it would be interlaced (throw away half the lines) for broadcast at 1080i. That way, moving forward to HD discs, those shows could come across as incredibly pristine. I would think that projectors would have almost no issue automatically syncing to 24hz or 60hz signals. Since color wheels on DLP run somewhere in the 360hz range (6x color wheel) that works out nicely for 24hz as well (25x color wheel). At least, it makes sense to me. ;) The reality of how projectors would/could handle 24hz and display it natively, is a bit beyond my technical prowess. But, I would think that a HD disc player could be set to output 24hz all the time if the main movie is 24hz and then switch to 60hz if the main movie is 60hz native. That way, you don't switch a thing, but the main feature determines the final signal sent to the projector. Meh, still likely a couple generations of HD disc players away.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
I take it you guys didn't read the article "Beyond HD" (pg. 48) in September's Sound and Vision magazine. (I'm an old Stereo Review diehard).

It talks about Ultra High Definition TV, offering 16 times the resolution of 1080p. It will have 7680 pixels of horizontal resolution and 4320 scanning lines, and will be accompanied by 22.2 channels of surround sound. The video will record at 24 gigabytes per second (conpared to 1.5 for HDTV). Unfortunately, technology will have to catch up to UHDTV, because right now, 90 minutes of video requires ~32 terabytes of space. :eek:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-ultra-hd.htm
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Buckeyefan 1 said:
I take it you guys didn't read the article "Beyond HD" (pg. 48) in September's Sound and Vision magazine. (I'm an old Stereo Review diehard).

It talks about Ultra High Definition TV, offering 16 times the resolution of 1080p. It will have 7680 pixels of horizontal resolution and 4320 scanning lines, and will be accompanied by 22.2 channels of surround sound. The video will record at 24 gigabytes per second (conpared to 1.5 for HDTV). Unfortunately, technology will have to catch up to UHDTV, because right now, 90 minutes of video requires ~32 terabytes of space. :eek:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-ultra-hd.htm

Is that what 70mm film looks like???:D
 
Duffinator

Duffinator

Audioholic Field Marshall
Buck, let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I'll be happy with ture 1080P where players output 1080P and sets accept 1080P.

BMX, I look forward to reading your updates of CEDIA especially what's the latest with 1080P DVD players.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
BMXTRIX said:
I'll be at CEDIA in two weeks..

Oh, yes, I am interested in any buzz about a universal HD player, before I get too old to enjoy one:D
 
We're looking forward to the Expo as well. We typically have about 100-120 pages of show coverage live during CEDIA. We'd welcome another "roving reporter" (we're bringing 6 people to cover the show).

Stay tuned to our CEDIA page and also our official CEDIA thread as we update it throughout the show (September 14th - 17th).
 
E

ejlmoney

Enthusiast
Please keep in mind that I'm a novice so this question may be rather ignorant.


How much difference does 1080P vs 720P make? Is it dramatic?
I've not seen a 1080P screen with a 1080P source. But I have seen 1080P screen with a 720P source (I'm assuming the screen upscaled to 1080P). I guess I'm confused. To me, the pictures (1080P & 720P) were relatively equalivalent, unlike Standard Def to High Def.

Furthermore, I beleive the big driver to HD will be sports. Why should I upgrade to 1080P if broadcasters are only going to only broadcast in 1080i and 720P?
The image can only be as good as the info you send it. (While upscaling does occur, this can only be so good. Otherwise, we'd all be happy with upscaling our SD signals.)

Can someone help set me straight?
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
ejlmoney said:
How much difference does 1080P vs 720P make? Is it dramatic?
720p is 1280x720 pixels or about 1 million pixels. 1080p is 1920x1080 pixels or about 2 million pixels. So it is a 100% jump in the resolution on screen.

ejlmoney said:
I've not seen a 1080P screen with a 1080P source. But I have seen 1080P screen with a 720P source (I'm assuming the screen upscaled to 1080P). I guess I'm confused. To me, the pictures (1080P & 720P) were relatively equalivalent, unlike Standard Def to High Def.
1080p is more about achieving the most of the HD signal. This is not something that will be as appreciable in displays 50" and under but with more and more 60"+ displays, especially front projectors, it allows finer details to be rendered on screen far more easily. You are dead on that a 720p signal is converted to 1080p to show on a 1080p display. So, a 720p source is all you really see. You must SEE true 1080p to understand the difference.

ejlmoney said:
Furthermore, I beleive the big driver to HD will be sports. Why should I upgrade to 1080P if broadcasters are only going to only broadcast in 1080i and 720P?
I would say that sports are not it. HD disc formats from Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD will be the big push. Because movies are shot on film with resolutions that far exceed 1080p, it is possible to get home movies that have quality that is better than anything ever seen before. DVD, by comparison, is 480i resolution (though it works out to 480p due to frame rate/etc.) So, 1080p storage of films contain about 6 times the resolution of DVDs! That's a huge jump that can really be appreciated on a bigger screen.

Sports, unfortunately, are broadcast, so it is likely you won't see them at 1080p anytime soon.

ejlmoney said:
The image can only be as good as the info you send it. (While upscaling does occur, this can only be so good. Otherwise, we'd all be happy with upscaling our SD signals.)
Yes - garbage in, garbage out. There is only so much the scalers and processors in any display can possibly do for the original video signal which is why it is important to start with the best signal possible from the beginning. HD broadcast signals are NOT the best. HD discs will really begin to take advantage of the 'best' that these displays have to offer. Yet, even today's HD discs are only beginning to do so. In a few years, should HD discs do well, then we should really see the technologies start to get tweaked to take full advantage of 1080p displays.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
mtrycrafts said:
Oh, yes, I am interested in any buzz about a universal HD player, before I get too old to enjoy one:D
There are two things that I have been watching fairly closely it is 1080p front projection and the HD disc format war. I have ZERO belief that you will hear anything about a universal HD disc player anytime soon. But, I will be looking for real displays of HD disc players, looking for BD50 disc info, PS3 BD playback, and anything new from either camp for manufacturing and quality.

I'm sure Clint and the crew here will be busy as heck and will put out a ton more information than I could possibly dish out, yet I will do what I can and be back with my opinion on things. Since I don't do a review site or anything I can be as big of a douche as I want about things I don't like. ;)
 
Duffinator

Duffinator

Audioholic Field Marshall
BMXTRIX said:
I would say that sports are not it. HD disc formats from Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD will be the big push.
The HD formats are the driver for me and not sports.

One other comment about 720P vs. 1080P displays, SD pictures tend to look better on 720P displays. It's a concern for now that should disappear within the next five years when most broadcast in widescreen HD.
 
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