10.2? Whats Is Next

Khellandros66

Khellandros66

Banned
<font color='#000000'>Hey Everyone~

Just wondering if anybody has heard the new 10.2 demo at all. Was it at HE2003?  I personally don't care much for EX or ES Matrix (I do like ES Discrete though) I feel that these modes are just to much.  I love 5.1 because the rears, if set up correctly, have great stereo imaging, so in my opinion unless have the or need or room 6.1/7.1 its a waste.  I, like Gene, would rather have a pair of Front Effects channels than a surround back channel.  Plus it is easier to accomandate FE channels, for exaple if you have floor standing speakers, just place the FE speakers on them.

~Bob</font>
 
<font color='#008080'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Khellandros66 : Plus it is easier to accomandate FE channels, for example if you have floor standing speakers, just place the FE speakers on them.
If you have the option, I'd recommend trying to mount front effect (Yamaha "8.1") speakers above and outside of the main speakers by a considerable margin.

The goal is to open up the soundstage, something that won't be as effective if the speakers are directly on top of the mains.

In fact, running speaker cable down a wall is generally easy (assuming you aren't in an apartment or rented home.)

As for 10.2 - I could care less personally... Simply overkill  
  Of course, 10.2 is really 6.1 + Effect speakers + separate rear stereo surrounds + an extra subwoofer.

So:

2 Mains
2 Wide Fronts
2 Surrounds
2 Rear Surrounds
1 Center
1 Rear Center
2 Subwoofers

That's a ton of speakers and will not hit mainstream other than to effectively downgrade the quality of components. What I mean is this: Manufacturers can only supply additional features until they have to do one of two things to keep the general price expectations in place - 1) reduce component quality or 2) reduce component quality.

Again, this assumes that the manufacturer is being "forced" to conform to an industry that says "we want more speakers" which, in eseence, is a false drive since nobody I know even thought they needed 6.1 before it came out.

So lets all hope that 10.2 stays a pipe dream for the incurably unsatisfied and the rest of us can focus on perfecting our 5.1, 6.1, 7.1, 5+2.1, and 6+2.1 setups.</font>
 
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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
<font color='#000000'>When a famous engineer/producer (sorry, drawing a blank on the name) was asked how many channels would be ideal to reproduce sound, he replied a million. &nbsp;In his opinion, more channels, if properly utilized, is simply capable of greater realism.

I was thinking the 10.2 system incorporated a height channel, too.

Personally, I haven't "upgraded" to 7.1 yet, as I can't afford to drop another grand on matching rear surrounds, but I'm actually really anxious to hear some 10.2. &nbsp;There are a lot of market barriers to this catching on, especially for your "Joe Sixpack" types, but if it lives up to the early hype I've heard I think it eventually will become the norm for serious reference systems, at least once the "Flat Earth/Stereo" thinking inevitably fades away (no offense to any Luddite stereo types out there!
&nbsp;
).

I agree with you Hawke, in a sense, that we'd dilute the quality of our systems by spending the same amount on 10 speakers that we would have spent on 5, therefore getting crappier speakers. &nbsp;But of course this same arguement was levelled by mono fans against stereo. &nbsp;And many cynics said stereo was just an excuse the mfgr's came up with to sell speakers! &nbsp;Does that one sound familiar? &nbsp;

The sad fact of the matter is that no one ever said real high fidelity systems would be cheap. &nbsp;It may not be fair, and it might suck, but that's the way it is, I'm afraid.</font>
 
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Khellandros66

Khellandros66

Banned
<font color='#000000'>Hey Everyone~

Hawke since I only can afford the Yamaha RX-V1300 I can't have FE channels, but in the future when I upgrade to bigger system I will definitely get a flagship Yamaha. &nbsp;Who know mybe a RX-Z2 or Z3 (if they stick w/ that family model #). &nbsp;I also seriously doubt that this format will take off, at least 5+ years down the road. &nbsp;I would rather see 24bit/96kHz DVDs than 10.2 DVDs at 48kHz/16bit.

~Bob</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Bob,

At some point you should try and give Lexicon's Logic 7 a listening audition.  It is far and away one of the best designed digital surround algorithms from a company that provides much of the surround technology to the recording industry.

For full 360 degree sound envelopment it gets the most rave reviews.  It also works with any type of source material, mono, 2-channel, DD, and DTS.

It uses 7.1 channels: Front L&R, center, L&R sides, L&R rears.  Side and rear pairs are stereo and not mono.

The used market makes the DC-1 ($800), DC-2 ($1000), and MC-1 ($1400) some of the best prepro values on the market today. &nbsp;These are all approximate used pricing.</font>
 
Khellandros66

Khellandros66

Banned
<font color='#000000'>Bruce~

I heard the Lexicon MC-12 at HE2002 with the Logic7 it by far one of the best, but up there with it is Tri-Field and Quad-Field Cinema DSP from Yamaha.

~Bob</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Yes, I agree with you about Meridian.  They and Lexicon have been and still are the industry leaders in digital audio research and products.

Trifield is designed for music playback rather than HT, and if money wasn't an issue and I had my choice Meridian would be my prepro of choice.

An MC-12 is like $6-$10K.

A little too rich for my pocketbook.

Also, I believe the new Parasound C1 gives you the option of actually defining a 10.2 system, but you, the user, are the one who actually defines what the additional channels contain.</font>
 
Khellandros66

Khellandros66

Banned
<font color='#000000'>Bruce~

I checked out the Parasound C1 and I am impressed by its specs, but I would love to hear it.

:0~

Bob</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>Bob;

Parasound is sending us their latest processor. &nbsp;I should have it in a few weeks. &nbsp;I will give you the quick skinny on it when I have it all hooked up. &nbsp;We have a bit more time on our hands to review processors since we sent back the disappointing Sunfire III. &nbsp;More on this later...</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Parsound stuff does look cool. &nbsp;If I _had_ to pay full price, "high end" parasound would be where my money goes. &nbsp;When you look though the Starwars episode 1 bouns disk you'll find a good 1 hour documentary on how the Audio is created and mixed. &nbsp;You also notice M&K speakers everywhere, and rack or two of parasound gear (A Blue Sky monitors show up as well). &nbsp;Neat stuff.

It's not that M&K speakers are really "high" quality, the drivers they use are actually low end or "value" Peerless and Vifa units, not premium grade, but if you want to hear it the way it was mixed, that's what you need to do it. &nbsp;I imagine they use M&K gear because it is a decent performer and was basicly "given" to them as a promo. &nbsp;I can say I know what they used in the "Final" mixing room, it was dark.

If you interested in the read surround, &nbsp;here is test for you. &nbsp;head on over to good busy street &nbsp;(In my case I noticed this on a walk-over pedestrian bridge).

Turn you back to traffic, and listen to it go by. &nbsp;I won't tell you what I heard, go try it for yourself, &nbsp;but after thinking about it I can see 7.1 is better than 6.1. &nbsp;I can also see why more front effects channels would be a better idea than more rear effects.

Most people "look" at what they are listening to for a very good reason. &nbsp;Good producers take that into account when mixing cinema, so I can see a natural push for more "front end". &nbsp;I think a front vertical channel will add more than an array of three rear channels.

Just my two cents
Rob</font>
 
<font color='#008080'>It's funny to hear other people say what I've been saying all along, that Studios often use mid-fi to hi-fi equipment in mixing stems and finals of movies. I have yet to see a studio that has $25,000 main speakers (add the same in amplifiers) with $5k+ audiophile interconnects.

In the studios where I worked we mixed on a mix of Genelec, Yamaha, JBL, Tannoy, and (yes, I'm not kidding) Peavey monitors depending upon what we were doing. The speaker cables? Cheap-o Monster Cable or the like. In fact, it was common that interconnects had to travel through miles (practically) of shielded Belden to and from a patch bay, not to mention the TT connectors that linked everything together.

So I believe that there is a point of diminishing returns when we build our home theater systems. It begins with the digital recording and layered 44.1, 16-bit samples used to create these soundtracks, and finishes with the actual monitors used to gauge the accuracy of the master recording in the studios.

How can you improve upon something whose source is limited in such a manner? Caveat - not all studios are alike, of course - and I certainly haven't worked in all of them.

As for the point on 7.1 - I am leaning in the direction of placing a greater emphasis on front effects as well. Primarily, though, this is because the industry in general doesn't spend much time on surrounds, so evironment (read: BGs) is key and 5.1 does environment pretty well when coupled with effects channels.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>The Future of Cinema: Malco Develops 10.2 System with Klipsch


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by Sarah Knight

Some passions run deep. For Salvatore “Toto” Di Vitto, the main character in the film Cinema Paradiso, his love affair with movies blossomed at an early age then spanned decades without ever losing intensity. His fascination with film was not only for sounds and images, but also for the magical process of give and take with an audience.

Malco Theatres elicits the same type of enthusiasm with its latest and highly advanced theater complex.

&nbsp;

Postwar Sicily is the setting, and in the small town of Giancaldo, Italy, no one was more star struck with the town’s only theater, Cinema Paradiso, than young Toto. He would hide in the lobby and peek through the doorway to watch each week’s film in its entirety. If given the opportunity, he would risk a beating from his mother and spend the family’s milk money on a matinee ticket.

Toto was raised by Hollywood legends. His birth father missing since the war ended, John Wayne, Clark Gable, Bob Hope and Charlie Chaplin became his father figures. Toto befriended the Paradiso’s projectionist, and through extreme persistence, became his young apprentice. It was an experience that later in life helped Toto to become a famous film producer.

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The film Cinema Paradiso celebrates the film-going experience. The theater depicted in the movie serves as more than just a motion-picture house – it represents the community by bringing together the town’s various personalities and eccentricities.

Cinema Paradiso’s heartwarming and nostalgic look at early movie-going was the inspiration for Malco Theatres’ new multiplex theater – The Paradiso in Memphis, Tenn. To honor the film, Malco featured this touching 1988 motion picture directed by Giuseppe Tornatore during opening week.

Malco designed the 14-screen Paradiso with an Italian-theme. The theater’s lobby features a large authentic Italian fountain and a concrete floor design borrowed from the Piazza San Marco in Venice.

&nbsp;

Mike Thomson, Malco’s vice president of operations and technology, said the company went to great lengths to capture the true essence of Italy.

The Paradiso offers virtually every amenity a guest could want. All 14 auditoriums use state-of-the-art sight and sound equipment and feature comfortable stadium rocking chair seating with lots of elbowroom. While waiting for a movie to begin, guests can enjoy wine and imported beer in the theater’s Café Tuscana or visit the expansive game room with wireless Internet connections and game stations.

&nbsp;


Not only does the Paradiso have a unique Italian flair and amiable services, it also features a 42 feet by 62 feet large format screen in one of its auditoriums that has performance capabilities unlike any other theater in the country.

“This large format auditorium has a sound system that is the strongest, most dynamic of any commercial theater venue in the world,” said Thomson.

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Most importantly, this theater is one of only two houses in the world that serves as a technological prototype for presenting the new 10.2 surround sound system concept developed by Tomlinson Holman and his TMH Corporation. With a distinguished career in audio, video and film that spans over 33 years, Holman is best known for his 15 years at Lucasfilm Ltd where he developed the THX® Sound System and its companions the Theater Alignment Program, Home THX®, and the THX® Digital Mastering program.

While working for Lucasfilm, Holman was inspired by George Lucas’ interest in upgrading film presentation standards in the industry. Holman discovered theater audiences were not hearing what was recorded in the film studio, as many of the subtle sounds were missing. His innovative approach was to consolidate existing performance standards into a new system, which included theater acoustics as well as sound equipment. Through the creation of THX®, Holman and Lucas revolutionized the cinema experience by allowing audiences to experience films just as the director intended.

While still in experimental stages of development, the 10.2 design can be considered the most advanced, state-of-the-art surround system available today. It creates a smoother transition between channels and efficiently localizes sound. The 10.2 system represents a huge leap in technology and requires a showcase of expertise to get it working properly. With 63,000 watts of QSC power, this large format auditorium sound system can extend as low as 17Hz.

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In order to achieve this phenomenal level of sound quality, Thomson chose Klipsch professional stage and screen loudspeakers.

“I prefer Klipsch because they are considerably more efficient than the competition without the sacrifice of frequency response,” said Thomson.

The 10.2 system utilizes eight Klipsch KPT-MCM-4-T Grand loudspeakers, the world’s first and only fully horn-loaded, THX®-Approved four-way cinema sound system, offering the ultimate in audio performance. For extended bass response and controlled coverage, the theater features 20 KPT-1201 THX®-Certified surround speakers used in an array configuration. A series of three-way KPT-250s are being utilized as point-source surrounds in the 10.2 system and provide high power handling, extreme efficiency, extended bass response and exceptional control. For overhead effects, a pair of KI-362 three-way speakers are mounted to the 50-foot ceiling and have the ability to produce 116 decibels of sound. They provide approximately 100 degrees of square dispersion and cover the entire seating area. An additional KI-362 is utilized as a point-source rear center for 10.2 presentations only. Two hybrid KPT-415-LFs, featuring KPT-402-MF horns on top, handle the theater’s left and right surround content for large format and 10.2 presentations.

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“The best way to describe this configuration is if you hit a ping pong ball around the room you would actually hear it bounce in every point that it could,” said Thomson.

The entire speaker complement actually has 18 discrete channels and different ones are used for different sound formats. Ultimately, Mike Thomson and Tomlinson Holman plan to further the experiment and use all 18 channels as a single system for demonstration purposes. Together, they plan to prove that 10.2 is the future of cinema audio for a more realistic, dramatic sound experience.

Naturally, this theater has the ability to play eight-channel Sony SDDS, conventional DTS and Dolby Digital 5.1 and 6.1. All of these formats are capable of running in EX mode, which means there is an extra channel in the back of the theater. In fact, this auditorium is the second in the world to incorporate Dolby’s new ceiling array for the EX format. This new feature delivers exceptional, true-to-life sound that can trick audiences into believing a helicopter has landed in the theater or that the roof is caving in.

Guests are sure to enjoy the excitement, suspense and emotion of Hollywood inside this THX® approved auditorium that can play both 70mm film and 35mm film.

“This auditorium gives movie-goers the finest presentation in the world,” said Thomson. The Paradiso’s 13 other auditoriums feature a variety of Klipsch speakers to achieve the highest level of performance for the space and an ideal rotation of blockbuster films.

As with young Toto’s passion for showing movies in Cinema Paradiso, Malco elicits the same type of enthusiasm with its Paradiso Theatre. The company has taken its love of film and developed a unique atmosphere with astounding cosmetics and highly developed technology for others to enjoy.


Klipsch news</font>
 

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