P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Anthony Gallo Reference 3.2 which I have, drops down to 1.63ohm, and has a capacitive tweeter - causes trouble with many amp designs!
That's a familiar topic, by the way, do you have their original marketing information? Just curious about what they said about amplification requirements. If their marketing was honest, customers oriented, they would/should have stated clearly for optimal, or even reasonably good performance, power amps used to drive those speakers should not only be rated for X amperes at Y volts continuous.., but also stable within the specified V and I range. The term "power" should not be used at all, unless supported with V and I, for obvious reasons I covered in my many responses to your posts related to this topic (i.e. your seemingly favorite demanding speakers).
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Not dialoum, but I remember those Gallos, heard them, found 'em kinda good sounding. They were a bit unconventional, lacking passive crossovers, relying solely on the respective acoustic rolloffs, so no insertion losses there, combined with those planar tweets (cylindrical in shape) lowish impedance, I can sorta see how they may trigger overly sensitive protection circuitry. Highish voltage sensitivity in a band that doesn't demand much power should still be able to be driven with most amps, though. I don't recall any specific recs from Gallo, just didn't dig so deep.

The woofer on those was a dual vc type, so it could be driven in numerous ways to manipulate damping (actively drive one vc, leave the other open for no extra damping, shorted for extreme damping, or with resistors to get something in between those extremes). Pretty flexible for room integration.

Back to mainstream speakers that can be challenging, a good rule of thumb is to always check load characteristics of speakers with multiple woofers. That's a huge group of speakers from most mainstream companies. Multi woofer designs quite often sport low impedances, in bands that actuall DO need copious power. (And even then, most amps can adequately handle them, excepting the headbanger crowd who might genuinely need MOAR!!)

Gotta go dig more holes and patch up our nightmarishly extensive dribbler system. Tis the season for landscaping, oh, yay.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
That's actually one thing (among only a few Lol..) I agreed with TLSGuy, designs that resulted in such impedance behavior is not a "good" design, though in the case of the B&W diamonds, it might be fair to say that could be considered acceptable but imo as long as the manufacturer stated clearly in their specifications how/what their "recommended amplifier power (or variations of such..)" mean and how that would affect performance. I only say this because I assume their design likely put much more emphasis on sound quality related issues than amplifier requirements related to costs of such amplifiers.
More of that magical english electrical engineering ? Maybe more labor than engineering issues in the long run....
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
That's actually one thing (among only a few Lol..) I agreed with TLSGuy, designs that resulted in such impedance behavior is not a "good" design, though in the case of the B&W diamonds, it might be fair to say that could be considered acceptable but imo as long as the manufacturer stated clearly in their specifications how/what their "recommended amplifier power (or variations of such..)" mean and how that would affect performance. I only say this because I assume their design likely put much more emphasis on sound quality related issues than amplifier requirements related to costs of such amplifiers.
Yes, but it's the vaulted english origin that's amusing
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
That is true. There is no doubt that he infringed Peter's patents. But Peter was a gentleman and never pursued legal action. To tell you the truth, he thought that might widen the adoption of his technology. It surprised him and others, including myself, that this topology did not command wide acceptance. It think it is because it is counter intuitive. But it works, and works very well, and above all has long legs. I think there are two good reasons for this. 1). The part count is very low and so reduces the risk of component failure. 2). The amps, are highly efficient and run very cool. Low signal performance is the same as high signal, as there is zero low signal crossover distortion. You get class A performance without extreme inefficiency.

I will never understand why there has never been widespread adoption. Very good amps good be made now with major cost savings, and deliver performance the equal of digital amps and better than AB amps. Receivers for a start would benefit enormously from this amp topology.
Very good/better amplifiers that don't fail won't generate revenue for the manufacturer. Their main goal is to 'push boxes'. Once people began to accept shorter life in their purchases, it became a ridiculous path to disposability- both in products and peoples' money. I don't only blame manufacturers, people who have to be on the bleeding edge and those who feel the need to say "Mine is better" fit into this very well.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
That is true. There is no doubt that he infringed Peter's patents. But Peter was a gentleman and never pursued legal action. To tell you the truth, he thought that might widen the adoption of his technology.
For the record, Nelson Pass extols the same, evidenced by 'First Watt'........

 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I agreed with TLSGuy
I can see The Rapture came and I got left behind.
I'm not looking forward to the next 7 years.
You can bet I'm gonna straighten up and fly right.
Mmm-hmmm, that sinnin' behind me now, Lawd.
The signs were there all along but I'm with you now.

:oops:
 
m. zillch

m. zillch

Full Audioholic
That's a familiar topic, by the way, do you have their original marketing information? Just curious about what they said about amplification requirements.
Maybe some of the bullet points in the ads for difficult to drive speakers reads a bit like this:

• difficult to drive with many if not most amps so many buyers will be forced to have the privilege to also need to buy additional, expensive, 2-ohm capable amps to work these

• let's you brag to your audiophile friends that this need to buy new external gear to get them to work increased their inconvenience factor

After all, aren't expense and inconvenience two of the most important things in selecting audio gear, at least for a certain segment of the market?
 
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m. zillch

m. zillch

Full Audioholic
See the Stereophile magazine measurements of Bowers & Wilkins 804D D4 loudspeaker, with impedance reaching down to below 3 ohms and a phase angle of -70 degrees. That's a really incompetent design by a big manufacturer:
Interestingly some of these specific "dangerous speaker lines" some magazines tout as being why power amps capable of very low impedance capability "are in order" can actually be driven by even just some AVRs' built-in amps, as per Gene:

"At Denon’s office in Kawasaki, Japan, Audioholics founder Gene DellaSala was impressed to see both new models being used to power the formidable Bowers & Wilkins 801 D4 speakers, showcasing the receivers’ ability to deliver stable power and hit high SPLs with demanding 4-ohm speakers. The speakers were first run full-range (with no bass management) and then again with subwoofers in tow. While it is unlikely that the typical owner of the 801 D4 will be pairing those $46K speakers with an affordable Denon AVR, the demo was an effective illustration of the robust engineering under the hood in these capable new receivers. "

- source


 
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D

dlaloum

Audioholic Chief
That's a familiar topic, by the way, do you have their original marketing information? Just curious about what they said about amplification requirements. If their marketing was honest, customers oriented, they would/should have stated clearly for optimal, or even reasonably good performance, power amps used to drive those speakers should not only be rated for X amperes at Y volts continuous.., but also stable within the specified V and I range. The term "power" should not be used at all, unless supported with V and I, for obvious reasons I covered in my many responses to your posts related to this topic (i.e. your seemingly favorite demanding speakers).
I don't recall any serious mention of amplifier requirements at the time, however they did release a seperate "Subwoofer amp" which was designed to biamp the reference speakers via the 2nd voice coil on the woofer.

Anthony Gallo used the Spectrum Musician III 500W Class D amps when demoing the speakers at audio shows... that was a high end amp, sadly the brand expired with its founder. I used the specs of that amp as a template in seeking an optimal amp for my speakers... the Crown XLS2500's are pretty close....

But as I have said before and elsewhere, the main issue appeared to be stability rather than power or even current, as the Quad 606/707 amps are very much current limited (and therefore power limited) into a 1.6ohm load - but still sound fabulous... and my current Denon X4800 seems to handle them just fine.
 
D

dlaloum

Audioholic Chief
Maybe the bullet points in the ads for difficult to drive speakers reads a bit like this:

• difficult to drive with many if not most amps so many buyers will be forced to have the privilege to also need to buy additional, expensive, 2-ohm capable amps to work these

• let's you brag to your audiophile friends that this need to buy new external gear to get them to work increased their inconvenience factor

After all, aren't these two of the most important things in selecting audio gear, at least for a segment of the market?
As a buyer/owner of "difficult" speakers, I can tell you that they were chosen for their subjective sound qualities...

My speaker history is Quad ESL(57), Quad ESL63, Quad ESL989, Gallo Nucleus Ref3.2.

All of these are exemplary speakers, and all of them are outliers in terms of design and their "sound" along with the way they interact with the room.

The Quad amps were always stable into any load - resulting in their matching very well with the Gallo speakers as well - so I had no need to go hunting for a new amp when I purchased the speakers - but if I had needed to purchase a new amp at the time, it would not have changed my decision.

I listened to a multitude of speakers in showrooms and audio shows, and the vast majority exhibited what I call the "box" sound (most likely vibrations of the panels broadcast as an audible signature and common to many, but not all, "box" speakers) - which has always bothered me. Most people do not even notice it.
I therefore gravitated to various panel speakers, and the spherical nucleus designs from Gallo - within my price range at the time, there was nothing that met my sonic requirements other than the Gallo speakers... by a large enough margin that an amp purchase would not have changed the decision.
 
D

dlaloum

Audioholic Chief
Interestingly some of these specific "dangerous speaker lines" some magazines tout as being why power amps capable of very low impedance capability "are in order" can actually be driven by even just some AVRs' built-in amps, as per Gene:

"At Denon’s office in Kawasaki, Japan, Audioholics founder Gene DellaSala was impressed to see both new models being used to power the formidable Bowers & Wilkins 801 D4 speakers, showcasing the receivers’ ability to deliver stable power and hit high SPLs with demanding 4-ohm speakers. The speakers were first run full-range (with no bass management) and then again with subwoofers in tow. While it is unlikely that the typical owner of the 801 D4 will be pairing those $46K speakers with an affordable Denon AVR, the demo was an effective illustration of the robust engineering under the hood in these capable new receivers. "

- source


I have made the (contented) observation that the Denon X4800 is driving my difficult and demanding Gallo Ref3.2's very well - and that as a result I have retired my external power amps for the time being.

Well done Denon!
 

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