Fried my Denon Receiver

B

boham1978

Enthusiast
I have a Denon X3300W receiver that I actually worked with many of you a few years ago when deciding the equipment for my media room. Everything has been amazing. I ran Zone 2 out to two Klipsch KHO-7 outdoor speakers and have been happy since. One issue I hated was that when people wanted me to turn the music up and down, I find I have to use the app on my phone to do so which is fine except it usually requires me to get out of the pool.

So I just built a new house and brought everything to it set up almost exactly the same as the old. I had the builder pull the outdoor speaker wiring with a VI100 volume control knob. My thought process was now anyone can turn the volume up and down. The VI100 is set to 1/2X as the speakers are 8 Ohms. I changed the Zone 2 volume to be fixed at 65 which is where I am at when I am completely rocking the neighborhood. When I fired it up, everything worked! Until I turned the knob down. As soon as the volume knob is turned down (~1/3), the receiver shut down with red blinking light. I had to un plug it and plug it back in for it to come back on. I tested this 1 more time and as soon as the knob was turned down, the receiver shut down. I unplugged it and this time when I plugged it back in, POP! Blown cap and smoke.

At this point, I am unsure what I should do. Did I do something wrong? (obvious I did). If I buy another receiver, will I experience the same thing?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I have a Denon X3300W receiver that I actually worked with many of you a few years ago when deciding the equipment for my media room. Everything has been amazing. I ran Zone 2 out to two Klipsch KHO-7 outdoor speakers and have been happy since. One issue I hated was that when people wanted me to turn the music up and down, I find I have to use the app on my phone to do so which is fine except it usually requires me to get out of the pool.

So I just built a new house and brought everything to it set up almost exactly the same as the old. I had the builder pull the outdoor speaker wiring with a VI100 volume control knob. My thought process was now anyone can turn the volume up and down. The VI100 is set to 1/2X as the speakers are 8 Ohms. I changed the Zone 2 volume to be fixed at 65 which is where I am at when I am completely rocking the neighborhood. When I fired it up, everything worked! Until I turned the knob down. As soon as the volume knob is turned down (~1/3), the receiver shut down with red blinking light. I had to un plug it and plug it back in for it to come back on. I tested this 1 more time and as soon as the knob was turned down, the receiver shut down. I unplugged it and this time when I plugged it back in, POP! Blown cap and smoke.

At this point, I am unsure what I should do. Did I do something wrong? (obvious I did). If I buy another receiver, will I experience the same thing?
Well, obviously the volume control has been wired incorrectly, or it is the wrong type of control. My guess is that it is wired back to front, so that the cursor is on the receiver side and not the speaker side. This would cause a progressive short circuit which would become total when the volume was fully turned down. That would cause a complete short circuit in both channels and blow up your receiver. I can pretty much bet the farm that is what you have done. You should have tested it with a meter before hooking it up. Now you have blown up your receiver big time, and it is not worth the cost of repair. So it is new receiver time and a one way trip to the recycling center for your old one.
 
XEagleDriver

XEagleDriver

Audioholic Chief
Boham,
Sorry you had this problem..
- I took a look at the VI100 Installation Manual and although you did not do anything wrong, per se. However, I would expect a repeat performance unless you add an impedance protection circuit.

- To quote the VI100 install manual:
"It’s also recommended to use additional impedance protection when installing more than two 8ohm speakers per channel on each volume control."
- Many speakers, although advertised as "8 ohm", actually have impedance values below 8 ohms. If your speakers are in this catagory (and I suspect they are) that could explain the dumpster fire outcome.

I run three sets of other Zone speakers and although my speaker switch instructions say impedance protection is only needed when more than two sets are used simultaneously, I always leave it engaged, just to be safe.
Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
B

boham1978

Enthusiast
@boham1978, A meter test like Doc, Suggested would've come in real handy Beforehand. Ouch bro! I know who has a New Yamaha a3080 flagship AVR, for new Unopened in a factory box for sale. Hit up ADTG @AcuDefTechGuy, dude will get you a very nice deal! Just a note it won't stay long on hand so I'd move on it while there still time or else someone will Snatch it up.
Thank you. I messaged him to see if it's for sale. Obviously, I'm in the market

Boham,
Sorry you had this problem..
- I took a look at the VI100 Installation Manual and although you did not do anything wrong, per se. However, I would expect a repeat performance unless you add an impedance protection circuit.

- To quote the VI100 install manual:
"It’s also recommended to use additional impedance protection when installing more than two 8ohm speakers per channel on each volume control."
- Many speakers, although advertised as "8 ohm", actually have impedance values below 8 ohms. If your speakers are in this catagory (and I suspect they are) that could explain the dumpster fire outcome.

I run three sets of other Zone speakers and although my speaker switch instructions say impedance protection is only needed when more than two sets are used simultaneously, I always leave it engaged, just to be safe.
Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
SO I should have added a speaker selector switch with impedance protection? Looks like I'll be adding that to the purchase list.
 
B

boham1978

Enthusiast
I just checked with a meter. The knob was in fact wired wrong as TLS Guy stated. You would have thought the media installer when they built the house would have noticed that.
 
XEagleDriver

XEagleDriver

Audioholic Chief
Thank you. I messaged him to see if it's for sale. Obviously, I'm in the market


SO I should have added a speaker selector switch with impedance protection? Looks like I'll be adding that to the purchase list.
I would, to protect the AVR. Cheap insurance in my book.
- IMHO most outdoor speakers are not built as well as music/HT speakers. Then you add critters and the elements into the mix, the chance of an inadvertent short goes up.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I just checked with a meter. The knob was in fact wired wrong as TLS Guy stated. You would have thought the media installer when they built the house would have noticed that.
No, I would have expected it. Generally those type are as stupid a pig dribble. Now the guy owes you a receiver.
 
B

boham1978

Enthusiast
The builder (their hired media guy) pulled the wiring from media room to the volume knob and from knob to outdoor patio. I installed the receiver and the speakers.
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
I’m not sure about small claims court but I’d call the guy and see if he’ll do the right thing. Call him and tell him what happened, then promise a glowing online review if he cuts you a check for the AVR, I bet he does it!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I had to un plug it and plug it back in for it to come back on. I tested this 1 more time and as soon as the knob was turned down, the receiver shut down. I unplugged it and this time when I plugged it back in, POP! Blown cap and smoke.
Lesson learnt: If something tripped, shutdown, don't try it again right away. Always check, investigate, or/and wait for the unit to have a chance to settle, cool down.

In this case it looked like the Denon's protection circuit did work the first time and shutdown the unit time before it blew, but then you did it again too soon and the protection circuit did not react fast enough to protect the already cooked, or overheated, weakened some parts (to a point..).

At work, I lost count how many times electricians blew something up (e.g. motors) because right after it tripped on overload or short and their typical reflex action was to do a "reset", be it resetting a thermal overload, instantaneous over current device or circuit breakers. The odd time they would do it right by troubleshooting with a multi-meter. Lots of people do the same with fuses, always turn things on right after replacing the fuse, without trying to figure out why it blew in the first place. Sometimes, they end up blowing all the spare fuses even if lucky enough the device manage to survive but still stuck because they would run out of fuses when they eventually found and eliminated the root cause.:D
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I just checked with a meter. The knob was in fact wired wrong as TLS Guy stated. You would have thought the media installer when they built the house would have noticed that.
I'm with TLS, ask the installer to cover the cost of his mistake.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Not all Electricians are created equal. I got hit by a 480 Flash because of electrician f..ked up. if I hadn't had All my PPE on and standing on a 3" rubber mat I'd br dead today. Never Trust anyone with your safety always do a check yourself.
Yes, they can be all licensed, but the top notch ones are many times more knowledgeable and skillful than the bottom 10% ones.

Arc flash is a serious killer that did not get much attention until recent years (10-12 years I guess). Both US and Canada have strict rules now on the PPE requirements for arc flash protection but I suspect it is not being enforced as much as it is in Canada.

Nowadays, companies have to conduct arc flash studies and label their equipment based on the studies, or in some cases they can opt to follow some tables included in the standards but still have to label the equipment with appropriate warning and hazard information such as the one below (a good one as it spells out the kind of PPE required for the available arc flash energy, boundary and working distance.

So you have had a near miss, stay safe!

1600962786741.png
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Never Trust anyone with your safety
This right here!

YOU are the person most responsible for YOUR safety!

Rule #1, don't do something stupid that gets ME hurt.

Rule#2, don't do something stupid that gets YOU hurt.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Rule#1: Wear all PPE at All Times it can save your life or help in Preventing an accident. Rule #2: You are Responsible for your safety first.
Exactly, why take a chance when you can simply wear the proper PPE and stay a safe distance according to the warning labels. It is a lot like the C virus, distance and PPE can help. Chance to catch it may not be very high and there is a good chance you won't have symptoms or just mild symptoms, but there is still a slim chance of needing hospitalization or even ventilators so like arc flash, why risk it. I experienced the flash myself only once and did not get burnt, just got blinded for about a minute and loss some eye brow hairs, but I did have an excellent electrician who got burnt, bad enough (don't remember the degree burn) that he could work as an electrician since. Just one mistake taking a chance and that was his career changing accident.
 
B

boham1978

Enthusiast
Well this got deep into another subject but these kinds of stories should be told to prevent others from happening.

So I got with the media company and upon hearing what happened, they immediately apologized for what happened and are going to work with me to make it right.

I appreciate everyone's advice. And stories :D
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Rule#1: Wear all PPE at All Times it can save your life or help in Preventing an accident. Rule #2: You are Responsible for your safety first.
Yup, but PPE is the last line of defence!

Engineering controls, job safety analysis, and last minute risk assessments are all critical.

I once got sprayed in the face with sufuric acid! I had my safety glasses on, or that would have been BAD. I was in the eyewash station within a few seconds, it was right behind me. I'm certain that a beard also helped avoid more direct skin contact, but it was still a bit painful (but honestly not nearly as bad as it sounds).
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@PENG, I just happened to be standing close enough to the Electrician helper/installer and the Cubicle he was working in. Two very lucky dogs that day. But with that said even though I' m Not a Electrician my Title senior instrumentation technician T2 Certified plus Certified licensed to Troubleshoot-and build controls and Master Well Control panels and Master Shut-in control Shut down panels Another words I can bring a plugged "Downhole" or off-line well to live online safely and fire up the MCC panel. We both knew Enough to do lock out tag out which it was Done before hand. Plus I had a hot stick in my bag and so did he we should've both check to make sure the circuit was dead. I had just walked into the MCC room for our break I was getting ready to sit down a bit and just as I started to sit down he was closing the door on the Cubicle that he just putting a bucket in. I saw one light at the top of the panel that was green which means powered up. But the other 3 Cubicles below the one that was lit where not lit. Just as I asked him if he made sure power was Completely off I even Pointed out to him the green light at the top on the first cubicle, dude stepped back he looks at the three and goes powers off on the rest. I should have stopped him there. What he and I didn't know was, the Bus bar ran completely across the control panel so even though the other 3 lights where out because the Buckets were not in them. When he Slid the bucket in went to close the door Pow! Like a Double barrel 12 gauge shotgun going off except was like a Roman candle shooting out of that box! big Roman candle! They flew us both in had us checked out. I had 2nd Degree burns on my left wrist where my watch was at the Metal watch I guess static electricity jumped I don't know PENG. But the percussion from it knocked us both back. Two lucky a$$ fools I tell ya.
It is best to stay well away from any electricians if they are interacting with switchgear. Depending on the available fault level at the buss, safety distance could be10, 15 ft or more, even much more. Just watch one of those videos online that often were use as demos in arc flash safety training.

Fast forward to about 01:00

It didn't look like the company was in compliance, not by today's NFPA 70E for sure.
Most people don't realize copper expands 67,000 times when vaporized.

Inserting buckets, or live testing exposed energized parts, one should be suited up to PPE Cat.2 if the old standard that did not require risk assessments were followed. If I remember right those older standards have reference tables that gave examples of tasks and appropriate PPE. I think the latest standards now require risk assessment that determines the PPE Cat. level for specific equipment and warning levels must be posted accordingly. Have been out of it for a few years now so things could have changed.

We digressed, but hopefully it reminds people the danger of electrical equipment, yes even around HT equipment, is not just shock hazard but also arc flash hazard. An small explosion from an AVR could cause some seriously injury too depending on the conditions under which it occurred. I would say even for experience technicians, they should consider PPE, safety glasses with full side shield would be a minimum imo, when working on things like AVR with the case open. Unless one is trained properly, one should leave troubleshooting their AVR, amps etc., to qualified technicians.

1601036613736.png
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Lesson learnt: If something tripped, shutdown, don't try it again right away. Always check, investigate, or/and wait for the unit to have a chance to settle, cool down.

In this case it looked like the Denon's protection circuit did work the first time and shutdown the unit time before it blew, but then you did it again too soon and the protection circuit did not react fast enough to protect the already cooked, or overheated, weakened some parts (to a point..).

At work, I lost count how many times electricians blew something up (e.g. motors) because right after it tripped on overload or short and their typical reflex action was to do a "reset", be it resetting a thermal overload, instantaneous over current device or circuit breakers. The odd time they would do it right by troubleshooting with a multi-meter. Lots of people do the same with fuses, always turn things on right after replacing the fuse, without trying to figure out why it blew in the first place. Sometimes, they end up blowing all the spare fuses even if lucky enough the device manage to survive but still stuck because they would run out of fuses when they eventually found and eliminated the root cause.:D
The protection circuit in an amplifier is a simple thermocouple screwed onto the heat sinks and if the resistance is in the 'HOT!' range, it will trip immediately upon power up after the initial incidence- common sense says "Feel the amp/receiver to find out if it's hot", but.....Denon's light flash has three states- only one denotes overheat and it's not usually a persistent code, as it would be in a car's ECM and even that isn't actually permanent- it usually goes away after a specified number of key on events, in order to make it possible for a mechanic to see that it overheated even if the car owner tries to hide that information. At the risk of making these more complicated than necessary, it wouldn't be a bad thing if AVRs had a hidden menu area where diagnostics could be performed but the fact is, if they have a very low % of failures, why bother?

If a serious problem exists, the fuses blow but at this point, that's pretty rare- a shorted speaker wire can be dealt with via a breaker, as can DC at the output. Voltage spikes into the power transformer are trickier because they can have such short duration.

I took a Denon stereo receiver to the shop yesterday because it's in protection and opened it A) because I have serviced equipment for a long time and B) it's out of warranty. I found that if I unplugged one harness on the main board, it didn't go into protection but I saw nothing on the display. That was also to help the service tech in his troubleshooting. I started by disconnecting the thermocouple when the unit was cold and that didn't change anything.

I wouldn't open anything that still has a warranty- it's a good way to void it, regardless of the 'right to service' ruling.

On Christmas Eve morning in the first year I started working for a stereo store in 1978, a woman came in with a low powered Pioneer receiver because it had stopped making sound. When it was opened, we saw that the board around the fuses was charred and the fuses had been wrapped in aluminum foil. As it turned out, this wasn't the first time it was brought to the store in this condition and even though she was told that the cost exceeded its value, she continued to pay the fee because she liked it. That was when a receiver was easier to service.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I just checked with a meter. The knob was in fact wired wrong as TLS Guy stated. You would have thought the media installer when they built the house would have noticed that.
They might have noticed if they knew what they were doing but that isn't always the case.

By any chance, are the wires from the amplifier connected to the speaker side of the control? That will cause problems. Another cause is when a second control (and sometimes more if additional controls are used) is wired to the amplifier side of a volume control. Just saw that at a house where a well-known local integrator had installed the equipment and the homeowner said several amplifiers had blown up over the years.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
No, I would have expected it. Generally those type are as stupid as pig dribble.
Thanks.

It's not 'usually' unless they work for themselves and don't know or if the company doesn't make sure their installers KNOW how to do this stuff.
 
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