Bits are not bits

[haraldo]

For yourself and your own purposes this informal listening test is probably fine, but your test/report really means nothing to others particularly due it not really being a comparison of anything in a meaningful test but rather your report of an aural "experience" in your local hi fi store with some goofy products. I (and many others) don't put much stock into such anecdotal experiences let alone the efficacy of such products. Let alone having this odd shopping experience translate into this bits aren't bits thing. Am I remembering correctly that you claim to hear the difference between FLAC and WAV files or am I thinking of another golden ear?

I guess we are justy different..... When I hear something that makes a change beyond any reasonable doubt I want to find out what happens, I reckon....... you don't

Yes, I suggest there may be an audible difference between compressed flac and uncompressed flac due to the processing occurring in the decompression while playing the file.... there is a lot of writing on this on the Internet and I am not setting out to prove anything. I just make sure I have zero or minimal processing in gthe digital playback chain.

 

[lovinthehd]

I guess we are kust extremely different..... I prefer to use my ears before anything else to understand what I like and don't like and if my ears tell me something that I can't see in instruments I would prefer what makes music work best to me. Scientific approach cannot take me all the way, because there are things I easily can hear that is not explained by your arguments.

Your attitude is very strange, seems like you refuse to even listen ....

Yes, I suggest there may be an audible difference between compressed flac and uncompressed flac due to the processing occurring in the decompression while playing the file.... there is a lot of writing on this on the Internet and I am not setting out to prove anything. I just make sure I have zero or minimal processing in gthe digital playback chain.

You're not just using your ears alone, tho, you have involved other senses and information and seem to be fairly easily influenced by such. Of course I listen, I just don't do it the way you do in shopping.

 

[haraldo]

You're not just using your ears alone, tho, you have involved other senses and information and seem to be fairly easily influenced by such. Of course I listen, I just don't do it the way you do in shopping.

It takes a very very long time for me to decide..... I auditioned speakers for 15 years without making a call....
I may be quick to think there is a difference, but I don't jump quickly on this and I don't trust any seller or any guy in a shop.....

But in this case I am confident there is "something" .... maybe I will set out to prove it ....

EDIT: I go to a lot of shops that run demos of hi end equipment, most of all because it's fun and I learn a lot by listening to different gear, and some shops have lots of expensive hi end gear. Main thing it gives me is pleasure listening to nice music.

And in many cases I learn that lots of this hi end expensive gear sounds like crap, and some cheaper things may be really good

EDIT2: In other cases I understood thar room and speaker correction may be crap to me.... an audition with the Devialet amp using SAM correction for the Sonus Faber Guarneri Evolution undoubtedly makes the speaker worse in that setting, to me there is no doubt, so why do they make a system that in some cases actually worsen the result, beats me.....

It may measure better but clearly sounds worse to me.... so where does measuring bring us in that case....

 

[lovinthehd]

For 15 years you brought speakers into your house for auditioning in the room you'd use them in or just in showrooms? Do you read a lot of reviews before your shopping trips? Just curious.....

Go for it, but proof without better methodology...

 

[haraldo]

For 15 years you brought speakers into your house for auditioning in the room you'd use them in or just in showrooms? Do you read a lot of reviews before your shopping trips? Just curious.....

Go for it, but proof without better methodology...

I do read reviews, to get a grip on what is their opinion, but I don't take what reviewers write for granted... I don't bring speakers to my home for auditioning at the moment, but go to a lot of showrooms to listen, mainly for fun... I love it, there's a lot of interesting gear out there and in Norway there are very many shops more than willing to let you have the system for yourself for as long as you want. It also gives the benefit that I get a bit of a grasp on the market situation....

So sometimes I end up comparing apples with oranges, because setups are different and rooms very different, which makes it tricky....

if I would go for a proof, or see if it is wrong, I would do it really properly but to do that I would need to rig up a test that I am not even close to having access to, so I would need assistanse or sponsorship from someone willing to provide necessary equipment for this.... it's not going to be really soon because I am sweltering with work for at least the next upcoming months.....

 

[KEW]

It did not sound well at all to me and there was a lack of life and dynamics and it really was dull sounding andf I couldn't even listen through a song.

So then comes owner of shop in and say that I need to warn him in advance because it takes time to prepare for a demo, so what he did in this consecutive order is as follows:

1. Anti-static treatment for CD's with Nordost Eco3x antistat spray
2. Demagnetizing the CD with a Furutech destat III fan
3. Cleaning the laser on the CD player with a special CD that contains a special brush fot this purpose
4. Playing some xtremely weird sound very loud, so that we had to leave the room while this was going on and then Demagnetizing tweeter with the Furutech destat III fan

Between each of step 1 to 4 above I listened to Kate Bush, An architect's dream and between each of the steps I heard a very clear audible difference and so would probably all of you.

This just reeks of snake-oil salesman to me.
The idea that this shop sells a CD player (or has CD's) that require anti-static treatments and demagnetization in order for the equipment to sound decent is crazy. Is this your experience at home using CDs? Did he say how often his discs built up static? I have never noticed my discs pulling at the hairs on my arm, but I am sure it could happen with them being plastic.
My suspicion is that what you heard was real, but there was trickery involved!
I would guess the antistat spray should not break the bank, so why not try it and see if you detect a similar improvement at home to the experience you had in the shop? Your CD's have probably never been treated, so you would think it might make a huge difference!
Item 3 makes some sense, but the problem is cleaning the laser is on the digital side of things and it is not like analog where you get incremental improvements. Either the laser reads a "1" or a "0". If it reads the wrong thing (more often than the error correction algorithms can manage),you are not going to get a muted signal, you are going to get a discreet glitch in the playback. The same is true of the demagnetization and antistat of the CD! At least that is my understanding of digital music - either it is right or it is wrong - whereas analog is prone to being incrementally compromised, but not having a discreet discontinuity in the music like digital does.

Last thought:
I sincerely would not want to own a speaker that required me to play horrid sounds on them as a maintenance step before I could fully enjoy them!

 

[everettT]

This just reeks of snake-oil salesman to me.
The idea that this shop sells a CD player (or has CD's) that require anti-static treatments and demagnetization in order for the equipment to sound decent is crazy. Is this your experience at home using CDs? Did he say how often his discs built up static? I have never noticed my discs pulling at the hairs on my arm, but I am sure it could happen with them being plastic.
My suspicion is that what you heard was real, but there was trickery involved!
I would guess the antistat spray should not break the bank, so why not try it and see if you detect a similar improvement at home to the experience you had in the shop? Your CD's have probably never been treated, so you would think it might make a huge difference!
Item 3 makes some sense, but the problem is cleaning the laser is on the digital side of things and it is not like analog where you get incremental improvements. Either the laser reads a "1" or a "0". If it reads the wrong thing (more often than the error correction algorithms can manage),you are not going to get a muted signal, you are going to get a discreet glitch in the playback. The same is true of the demagnetization and antistat of the CD! At least that is my understanding of digital music - either it is right or it is wrong - whereas analog is prone to being incrementally compromised, but not having a discreet discontinuity in the music like digital does.

Last thought:
I sincerely would not want to own a speaker that required me to play horrid sounds on them as a maintenance step before I could fully enjoy them!

I'm wondering if do to region that a lot of people wear wool socks. This build up can be serious

 

[Irvrobinson]

I think there's a higher probability that different amplifier power cables make an audible qualitative difference than the probability that static charges could make an audible qualitative difference from the effect on the bit stream from a CD transport.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Here is view from veranda last morning
View attachment 29006

Is that your swimming pool? Nice.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
I agree that we sholuld try to quantify by metrics, but you can't measure an experience.....

While we may not be able to measure it with an instrument, we can certainly test it under blind, bias controlled listening conditions.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm wondering if do to region that a lot of people wear wool socks. This build up can be serious

Perhaps, yes, until you load the cd.

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't think wool socks will help much in his swimming pool, tho....

 

[everettT]

I don't think wool socks will help much in his swimming pool, tho....

Hot tub?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't think wool socks will help much in his swimming pool, tho....

You are right. Waterlogged it might drown him.

 

[haraldo]

This just reeks of snake-oil salesman to me.
The idea that this shop sells a CD player (or has CD's) that require anti-static treatments and demagnetization in order for the equipment to sound decent is crazy. Is this your experience at home using CDs? Did he say how often his discs built up static? I have never noticed my discs pulling at the hairs on my arm, but I am sure it could happen with them being plastic.
My suspicion is that what you heard was real, but there was trickery involved!
I would guess the antistat spray should not break the bank, so why not try it and see if you detect a similar improvement at home to the experience you had in the shop? Your CD's have probably never been treated, so you would think it might make a huge difference!
Item 3 makes some sense, but the problem is cleaning the laser is on the digital side of things and it is not like analog where you get incremental improvements. Either the laser reads a "1" or a "0". If it reads the wrong thing (more often than the error correction algorithms can manage),you are not going to get a muted signal, you are going to get a discreet glitch in the playback. The same is true of the demagnetization and antistat of the CD! At least that is my understanding of digital music - either it is right or it is wrong - whereas analog is prone to being incrementally compromised, but not having a discreet discontinuity in the music like digital does.

Last thought:
I sincerely would not want to own a speaker that required me to play horrid sounds on them as a maintenance step before I could fully enjoy them!

There is just no snake oil and rigging here for many reasons…

First of all it doesn't work: These guys would be out of business in a month, if they sell something that does not work at home, word would get out quick and there would be no more sales.

Also the sale is not done before it is installed at home: Most guys here don't sell products but go home and make sure that what they do in shop is repeated at home where rigging and faking is impossible.
Seems like you have lots more bandits in US than here?????

My experience is that digital playback systems have a long way to go and …. I don't recall once listening to music through a streamer where I was 100% convinced it is genuine, there are just too many audible flaws with a digital playback chain from a streamer…. The grand piano is not really genuinely like a piano, artifacts in voices that should not be there and some symthetic artifacts that can be just plain annoying.

Without exception, the best music I heard was always through CD players and Vinyl, a CD player shpuld not be better than a streamer but somehow my best experiences have always been with physical media...

Theoretically doing cleanups in the digital domain should not make a difference, but what if it does and what if it can be proved with blind testing?

I am after the same as you guys… I just want good music and I don't want to break the bank in that process; I am doing my best to get there without throwing money out the window. If you look at my profile I believe you will see no snake oil products anywhere. I am very serious about what I do and if I do hear an audible difference with things I want to find out and see how I can apply this at home J

I also tried wool socks but I can't hear any audible difference

 

[John Parks]

There is just no snake oil and rigging here for many reasons…

First of all it doesn't work: These guys would be out of business in a month, if they sell something that does not work at home, word would get out quick and there would be no more sales.

Also the sale is not done before it is installed at home: Most guys here don't sell products but go home and make sure that what they do in shop is repeated at home where rigging and faking is impossible.
Seems like you have lots more bandits in US than here?????

My experience is that digital playback systems have a long way to go and …. I don't recall once listening to music through a streamer where I was 100% convinced it is genuine, there are just too many audible flaws with a digital playback chain from a streamer…. The grand piano is not really genuinely like a piano, artifacts in voices that should not be there and some symthetic artifacts that can be just plain annoying.

Without exception, the best music I heard was always through CD players and Vinyl, a CD player shpuld not be better than a streamer but somehow my best experiences have always been with physical media...

Theoretically doing cleanups in the digital domain should not make a difference, but what if it does and what if it can be proved with blind testing?

I am after the same as you guys… I just want good music and I don't want to break the bank in that process; I am doing my best to get there without throwing money out the window. If you look at my profile I believe you will see no snake oil products anywhere. I am very serious about what I do and if I do hear an audible difference with things I want to find out and see how I can apply this at home J

I also tried wool socks but I can't hear any audible difference

This might be of interest to you as John Darko talks about many of the same things you are experiencing as far as streaming vs CD playback goes: https://darko.audio/2019/04/a-short-film-about-cd-playback-w-hegel-ps-audio-pro-ject/

The funny things is, he is really into streaming and streaming products/solutions have been a major player in his reviews the past few years...

 

[haraldo]

This might be of interest to you as John Darko talks about many of the same things you are experiencing as far as streaming vs CD playback goes: https://darko.audio/2019/04/a-short-film-about-cd-playback-w-hegel-ps-audio-pro-ject/
View attachment 29073
The funny things is, he is really into streaming and streaming products/solutions have been a major player in his reviews the past few years...

Look at video, less is more !

Hegel improves sound quality of CD player by removing streaming and digital inputs. Clear indication that what you do with digital functionality affect audible sound quality.

And this is from a company that gets rave reviews on everything they do. And they do have the engineering background to support it.

 

[shadyJ]

This might be of interest to you as John Darko talks about many of the same things you are experiencing as far as streaming vs CD playback goes: https://darko.audio/2019/04/a-short-film-about-cd-playback-w-hegel-ps-audio-pro-ject/
View attachment 29073
The funny things is, he is really into streaming and streaming products/solutions have been a major player in his reviews the past few years...

His claims would theoretically have a measurable difference, but, of course, he couldn't be bothered to actually measure them, as that would require a modicum of effort, or he wasn't seriously interested in the truth of his claims. Either way, terrible audio journalism.

 

[haraldo]

His claims would theoretically have a measurable difference, but, of course, he couldn't be bothered to actually measure them, as that would require a modicum of effort, or he wasn't seriously interested in the truth of his claims. Either way, terrible audio journalism.

And what about claims from Hegel, do you consider Hegel doing snake oil and being scammers?

I believe Darko to be one of the more respected guys out there.....

 

[shadyJ]

And what about claims from Hegel, do you consider them doing snake oil and being scammers?

My problem isn't with Hegel in this instance, it is with the Darko guy. He says that there is a glare in streaming devices that isn't there with a CD player. That would be easily identifiable with a spectral comparison. Naturally, he can't be troubled to do something so simple to back up his claims, so we are left with his vague description that is overwhelmingly likely to be a product of him imagination anyway. Don't take his claims seriously.