In Wall Speaker and Subwoofer Help for Basement Entertainment Center

[frogman]

Hi,

I am hoping someone can help me and give me some advice, as I am very new to home theaters and really need some advice. I am in the middle of a major reconstruction of my home and have put in a basement that I am turning into a entertainment center, mainly for watching movies. Please see image below with a simple drawing of the space.

I am planning to put in a 5.2.4 system to take advantage of Dolby Atmos and make the room the best place to watch movies I can without making it a dedicated theater. I cannot make it a dedicated theater because I have some very small children who as they grow will use this area as a play area as well. Consequently, I am looking to put as many of the speakers and subwoofers in the wall as I can so that they are out of the way for the kids. So ideally all of them will be in the wall except the center channel which will sit below the TV (in or on a TV console).

The room itself is approximately 23' 6" long and 17' wide. It has a 9' ceiling with a soffit over the couch that raises the ceiling to about 9' 8" in that area. The room directly above this room is a main bedroom of the house so I am doing everything I can to prevent noise pollution from reaching that room.

Overall, I want a good system that will last years without needing replacement. I am willing to spend a little more to get a good system since I will be going in wall with most of it and it is not easily replaceable then. Although hoping to keep speaker costs (including subs) to under $3,000.

I have some questions I am hoping someone can help me with:

1. Does anyone have any experience with in wall subwoofers, or can point me to any reviews ( I can barely find information on them)? I am hoping to install 2 of them as indicated to keep the floor space clean for the kids, but am very worried about any vibration or noise pollution from them to the upstairs room. Is this something I need to be worried about, or are there specific ones that are better at minimizing noise and vibrations being transferred to another room?
2. For the ceiling speakers, is there any way to limit, or even eliminate. any noise they will share with the room above? I have found most ceiling speakers to be open, without even an option for a backbox to purchase, does anyone know of any that would keep the sound down in the room below and not shared with the room above?
3. Does anyone have any advice or recommendations to soundproof this room from the room above?
4. I selected the speakers I did for quality and cost consideration (still looking for subwoofers to compliment this system and hoping for some suggestions here on them), but do not have a lot of experience speaker shopping so if anyone has any suggestions on other speakers I should consider or investigate for this system please share.

I really appreciate any help anyone can give me, especially for subwoofers and any information anyone has on in wall subwoofers (are they worth the extra cost and do they not share sounds with a room above). Thank you in advance for any help and advice you can give.

 

[frogman]

Sorry, I just noticed my simple drawing is a little off. Inside the foot thick cement walls are 2 "x 4" walls with about 1/2" air gap between the wall and the 2" x 4". Inside that is 5/8" sheetrock. So the suggested place for the in wall speakers are inside the 2x4 walls and not the cement walls as depicted in the drawing. From the sheetrock back there is a little over 4" to the cement.

 

[everettT]

I'd skip the inwall sub, the space is open and large so it wouldn't deliver much impact vs cost. Triad, Martin Logan, RBH, Niles, etc all make good inwall speakers. Who is doing the wiring?

 

[frogman]

I'd skip the inwall sub, the space is open and large so it wouldn't deliver much impact vs cost. Triad, Martin Logan, RBH, Niles, etc all make good inwall speakers. Who is doing the wiring?

I am doing the wiring myself (with some help with some friends who are more technically inclined than I am ). Pulling 14 AWG to all the locations (and a couple extra for future proof).

Of the sub companies you suggested should I start with any specific one over the others?

Considering I may be willing to spend extra to hide the sub in the wall (over out in the floor for the kids), would it be any difference as far as noise pollution upstairs?

 

[everettT]

I am doing the wiring myself (with some help with some friends who are more technically inclined than I am ). Pulling 14 AWG to all the locations (and a couple extra for future proof).

Of the sub companies you suggested should I start with any specific one over the others?

Considering I may be willing to spend extra to hide the sub in the wall (over out in the floor for the kids),would it be any difference as far as noise pollution upstairs?

I was recommending those companies for the speakers mainly. Though a couple make in wall subs also. I understand the concerns with the kids, however I still recommend in room sub/s. You can get subs with down firing drivers if your concerned with prying hands and such.
This would be one of the inwalls I'd consider, it will play loud and somewhat low at a f3 of 28hz, probably 25hz in room.
https://rbhsound.com/si1010.php
But at hefty retail price compared to getting two of these
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk5HPDual.html

As for the speakers, the in ceiling .4s and inwall surrounds can be any 5 1/4 or 6" speaker that fits the budget. Get the best front 3 you can afford.

As for sound bleeding through its tough to say as there are a lot of variables, but at low to mid levels it should be fine.

 

[TLS Guy]

Stopping sound leakage is difficult. One of the big reasons for sound travel is the HVAC. So if you want to eliminate that route of acoustic transfer then the HT room needs its own isolated HVAC. To really isolate things requires going to the trouble of building a room within a room and door interlocks. People are generally not going to go to that much trouble in a home. Putting lots of insulation in the walls and ceilings is about as far as you can go. I would advise the use of Dynamat behind any in wall speakers, especially a sub. However simple measures tend to be limited in their effectiveness to quite a marked degree.

As far as in wall subs are concerned all are pretty much useless except probably the Paradigm. It uses opposed noise cancelling long narrow elliptical woofers. There is also an optional back box, which I would advise.

Overall, I don't think there is a good total system out there. that can compare with traditional speakers.

I'm just about to embark on a new house build. I'm just finishing up the design of a novel in wall speaker system, including in wall sub of novel design. All the in walls will be powerful robust speakers. I hope delivering high quality sound with highly intelligible natural speech. The center speaker has a midrange that handles the whole of the speech discrimination band. The system is specifically designed to work with and exactly match the crossover slopes of receivers and pre/pros. There is nothing like it available on the market. This is done at the request of my wife who has requested a system with excellent performance and high WAF for the new main level great room. She has set the bar very high.

There will be more details when the system is built, measured and tweaked. You can guarantee some problems surfacing in tests and listening not predicted by the modelling.

My theater here will be dismantled and rebuilt in a slightly larger space with room for 9 chairs.

Actually, I'm glad my wife set this challenge as there is room for more R & D for in wall systems. So actually I'm quite glad of her challenge.

 

[Dmantis10]

The Best sounding In wall subs I've ever worked with is JL audio
http://www.jlaudio.com/home-audio-in-wall-subwoofers-fathom-iws
Velodyne is nice but no where near as good as the JL but more affordable
sc-600-iw-in-wall.html
Most in wall sub's don't perform well. you give up a lot when putting a subwoofer inside the wall unless they have a full bay back box.
Paradigm in wall subwoofers are very nice and powerful. Must get the full back box in order for it to perform it's best and man does it. It's probably the closet to the JL but not as good. The JL sub's are the best in wall sub's.
page=overview

 

[2channel lover]

Hi,

I am hoping someone can help me and give me some advice, as I am very new to home theaters and really need some advice. I am in the middle of a major reconstruction of my home and have put in a basement that I am turning into a entertainment center, mainly for watching movies. Please see image below with a simple drawing of the space.

I am planning to put in a 5.2.4 system to take advantage of Dolby Atmos and make the room the best place to watch movies I can without making it a dedicated theater. I cannot make it a dedicated theater because I have some very small children who as they grow will use this area as a play area as well. Consequently, I am looking to put as many of the speakers and subwoofers in the wall as I can so that they are out of the way for the kids. So ideally all of them will be in the wall except the center channel which will sit below the TV (in or on a TV console).

The room itself is approximately 23' 6" long and 17' wide. It has a 9' ceiling with a soffit over the couch that raises the ceiling to about 9' 8" in that area. The room directly above this room is a main bedroom of the house so I am doing everything I can to prevent noise pollution from reaching that room.

Overall, I want a good system that will last years without needing replacement. I am willing to spend a little more to get a good system since I will be going in wall with most of it and it is not easily replaceable then. Although hoping to keep speaker costs (including subs) to under $3,000.

I have some questions I am hoping someone can help me with:

1. Does anyone have any experience with in wall subwoofers, or can point me to any reviews ( I can barely find information on them)? I am hoping to install 2 of them as indicated to keep the floor space clean for the kids, but am very worried about any vibration or noise pollution from them to the upstairs room. Is this something I need to be worried about, or are there specific ones that are better at minimizing noise and vibrations being transferred to another room?
2. For the ceiling speakers, is there any way to limit, or even eliminate. any noise they will share with the room above? I have found most ceiling speakers to be open, without even an option for a backbox to purchase, does anyone know of any that would keep the sound down in the room below and not shared with the room above?
3. Does anyone have any advice or recommendations to soundproof this room from the room above?
4. I selected the speakers I did for quality and cost consideration (still looking for subwoofers to compliment this system and hoping for some suggestions here on them), but do not have a lot of experience speaker shopping so if anyone has any suggestions on other speakers I should consider or investigate for this system please share.

I really appreciate any help anyone can give me, especially for subwoofers and any information anyone has on in wall subwoofers (are they worth the extra cost and do they not share sounds with a room above). Thank you in advance for any help and advice you can give.

View attachment 25893

Nice project...good budget for 5.2.4

Inwalls...Triad is a brand you can look into and I'm a fan of Noble Fidelity if you want higher performance... in fact I might look into Triad or NF across the front and maybe something slightly less for the Atmos than the V60.

Sub...I think the kids can learn to live with the subs and vice versa...I wouldn't go inwall...a lot more value in traditional but the cylinders are catching on as well. Movie will be a whole lot more fun.

 

[TLS Guy]

The Best sounding In wall subs I've ever worked with is JL audio
http://www.jlaudio.com/home-audio-in-wall-subwoofers-fathom-iws
Velodyne is nice but no where near as good as the JL but more affordable
sc-600-iw-in-wall.html
Most in wall sub's don't perform well. you give up a lot when putting a subwoofer inside the wall unless they have a full bay back box.
Paradigm in wall subwoofers are very nice and powerful. Must get the full back box in order for it to perform it's best and man does it. It's probably the closet to the JL but not as good. The JL sub's are the best in wall sub's.
page=overview

Those JL subs are NLA, and would blow his budget anyway. The 12" driver was a very high Q driver. I doubt I would pick it out of choice.

My in wall sub design is 64" X 25.5" and 8.5" deep. So it is only suitable for new construction or remodel with a room pulled apart. Getting a sub to perform in a standard stud wall and deliver any reasonable performance is a stretch.

 

[shadyJ]

The Kef THX in-wall subwoofers look like they could be OK, although you would need multiples for really good bass. Elac has a really interesting approach to in-wall subs, and Andrew Jones talks about it at the 4:30 mark in this video. That is a very clever approach to handling the unknown response of mounting a sub in-wall.

 

[TLS Guy]

The Kef THX in-wall subwoofers look like they could be OK, although you would need multiples for really good bass. Elac has a really interesting approach to in-wall subs, and Andrew Jones talks about it at the 4:30 mark in this video. That is a very clever approach to handling the unknown response of mounting a sub in-wall.

I don't really buy into that all. If the in wall was in a closed space the resistor technique works. I have used it myself. However you don't have a closed space. Most walls pretty much are huge spaces with variable leakage, and probably not able to be Eq, without driver bottoming. If you use a low q driver you won't get a lot of deep bass what ever you do mounting it like that. If you up the Q I suspect a flabby bass however you Eq it and a driver that bottoms if you give it the gas. I think if you want an in wall sub in existing construction then you must be prepared to take the wall down and be prepared to sacrifice a little square footage.

Just to wet the appetite my in wall sub is a TL, with an F3 of around 28 Hz, and -6 db point of 20 Hz. It is of course a low Q design. The right and left are 2 way MTM high powered sealed with f3 second order roll off at 80 Hz. The center is a three way to be horizontal. The problem is that there is no coax drivers with the bandwidth for it. The crossover gets too too low. The band width is really not in the right place for a horizontal center. Mine will two of the same high powered bass mids as the right and left speakers, with the same Fs and a crossover to a high power 4" mid (150 watts RMS) at 400 Hz and hand over to a 3/4" dome staring at 3 KHz with an overlap to 6.5K hz where the mid driver response falls sharply. I'm hopeful this will result in highly intelligible natural speech. The speakers are four ohm with a very flat curve. No dips or crazy phase angles. There is a bass tuning peak to 10 ohms at 80 Hz and a broad base peak centered on 4.5 K Hz from 2.5 K Hz to 7 KHz where impedance returns to 4 ohm. This is over the period of the mid/tweeter overlap mainly. After 7 KHz the tweeter,s impedance curve rises sharply to 50 ohms at 20 KHz. The mid has excellent dispersion to 3.5 KHz and small tweeter excellent dispersion to 15 KHz. This is the Eton copy of the old and highly renowned Dyaudio D21 AF. I have confirmed that acoustically it is an exact copy. Those tweeters have absolutely the flattest response of any tweeter I know. They are only suitable for mating with a very wide band mid driver in a three way design though. Dynaudio used to mate them with their mid range domes.

 

[frogman]

Thanks for all the help so far! I greatly appreciate it.

In Wall Speakers - Sounds like I should look into Triad over Polk Audio for the in wall speakers, as multiple people have noted I should look into them. Within their product group does anyone have any specific recommendations on which actual speakers to purchase? Also would anyone know where I can find the cost for their speakers, or a place to buy them?

Subs - I will look into the Paradigm in wall sub, but sounds like subs in the room would be best. Any recs. for which one I should pick up? Was planning to put 2 in the space.

TLS Guy - thanks for all the advice! I do have a separate HVAC system for the basement so that should help with noise transfer. If you have any other thoughts on anything else that would help I am all ears. Planning Rockwool insulation as well in the ceiling. Your home theater project sounds amazing, super interested to see hear how it turns out, good luck!

everettT - Thanks for the links and advice, I will look into those. You recommended Triad for my speaker budget (under $3K), within Triad which front three would you recommend?

2channel lover - Which Triads would you recommend for my price range?

Dmantis10 - Thanks! The JL looks awesome but out of my price range. Will check out the Paradigm in wall one you recommended though, I may be able to swing that.

shadyJ - Thanks for the video! Very interesting to watch.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Welcome to AH.

I would also suggest that the front ceiling pair be moved further towards the main listening position, maybe over the coffee table?

 

[everettT]

If your interested in the Triad speakers contact @DigitalDawn and she can assist you in options. See what the speakers cost out to, then subs can be explored.

 

[DigitalDawn]

Hi Frogman,

Triad is probably too expensive for your $3000 budget. For close to that amount you could get a 5.1 Bronze Triad system but the extra channels and sub will cost more.

Like Triad, there are other speaker companies that have sealed ceiling speakers to attenuate sound in rooms above.

Dawn