Are most new subs the same in 2018

ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
So I have read and got some feedback about new subs in today's time. 2018.. I was searching for a sealed Musical sub.. You know, one that is best for an audio only set up. No HT set up in this search. From what I have read, most new subs will be close to the same performance for music. Especially in a 12x14 room. So go for the lowest price one as the difference in sound from a 700 sub to a 1500 sub would be small. One thing I have read is it's best to go for a speaker connection hook up like one on a REL or JLAudio.. Any thoughts on owners who have been through this?
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Speaker level connection won't matter. I wouldn't worry about that. It's only advantage is that it automatically puts the sub in phase with the speakers, but its huge disadvantage is it doesn't allow for bass management. Try to avoid speaker level connections.

For the best sound, your goal should be a flat frequency response. That is very difficult to do with a single sub. I would use at least two subwoofers (more is even better). The good news is they don't need to be huge or powerful, they only need a somewhat linear response. You should also get a way to measure the response and optimize it. A MiniDSP and Umik mic would be a great package to accomplish that. For subs, I would be looking at entry level subs from Hsu, Monoprice Monolith, SVS, Rythmik, to name a few good brands. They will all have a good enough frequency response and dynamic range for whatever you want to do. One other feature you might look for is upper bass extension above 80 Hz. This can be helpful. Look for subs that can play to higher frequencies, like 150 Hz to 200 Hz. Not that you are going to necessarily need that upper end extension, but it can be useful.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Speaker level connection won't matter. I wouldn't worry about that. It's only advantage is that it automatically puts the sub in phase with the speakers, but its huge disadvantage is it doesn't allow for bass management. Try to avoid speaker level connections.

For the best sound, your goal should be a flat frequency response. That is very difficult to do with a single sub. I would use at least two subwoofers (more is even better). The good news is they don't need to be huge or powerful, they only need a somewhat linear response. You should also get a way to measure the response and optimize it. A MiniDSP and Umik mic would be a great package to accomplish that. For subs, I would be looking at entry level subs from Hsu, Monoprice Monolith, SVS, Rythmik, to name a few good brands. They will all have a good enough frequency response and dynamic range for whatever you want to do. One other feature you might look for is upper bass extension above 80 Hz. This can be helpful. Look for subs that can play to higher frequencies, like 150 Hz to 200 Hz. Not that you are going to necessarily need that upper end extension, but it can be useful.
IMO, given the OP's relatively small room combined with already excellent full range speakers I see no reason to look for an inexpensive sub that you expect to play all the way into the 'Upper Bass' region. The Revels are fully capable to 40hz or even a little lower. Expecting a 'sub' to do more than intended does nothing more than point out the weakness in ones L / R speakers.

I do agree with two subs over one if the room allows.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
Yes. Revels do full range very well. I just got these recently and have been using them without a sub. I do however think that a little more low end is needed as I am a bit of a bass head. I want to go a little lower but I Don’t want to intrude on the Revels fantastic full range. Hints why I am looking for a really good sub.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Is this like amps sounded so much worse each previous year for the last 40 years or so?
 
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snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
That’s a small room around 1400 cu ft. You might like two Rythmik L12 sealed 12in subs. I would use the sub LFE in and use bass management at the receiver. (I have a single L12 in my bedroom which is 1300 cu ft).
If you are wanting a sealed 15, check out the HSU ULS15 or Rythmik E15 sealed 15in subs. These in duals would be overkill output for music in that space but can handle serious home theater duty. The HSU ULS15 is cheaper than the E15. Most threads discussing the “best” sub end in a 15in sub but your room is pretty small. Shady reviewed ULS15. I think Peng has the E15.
If you consider ported subs for music, I really love my Rythmik LVX12 ported 12 for music and home theater. (I have a single one in my home theater which is 2600 cu ft). Duals would be very sweet. If going ported, look also at HSU in this price range.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
I don’t want a ported sub. I’d like to keep them on the smaller side hints why I was looking at 10in subs. But 12 seems to be the most common. Again I’m not looking for big out put. I’m looking for something to fill just the lower end notes to give me the full range that the Revels or for that matter any tower won’t give you. So going back a bit. I had my Kef LS50 running with my Outlaw Audio X12 ported sub. That sub was way to much for the room. Seemed slow and bloated. I moved it to my big HT room and it was like magic. It’s great for Movies in a big room. This may be why I am swayed towards a smaller more musical sub that disappears and blends with my towers verses over taking them.
 
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snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
The Rythmik L12 is pretty affordable and shipping is included. Two L12s would be even better than 1... They also have F12 but some of the F12 models lack LFE so be aware. SVS has sealed 12s but seems like many owners upgrade away from them quickly so not sure they are perfect. I think Pogre had a pair before. HSU doesn’t have a sealed sub smaller than 15 but that ULS15 review was really good that James did.
Also you had a post back in January about combining your home theater and music room. Is that the current plan?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I would recommend getting one 12" or larger sealed sub with parametric equalization, running the Revels full-range, driving the sub in parallel with a line-level input, and using the PEQs to limit the sub to being a gap-filler as measured in your seating position. With speakers as capable as yours using a crossover is a waste of two excellent bass sources. For music you'll have the rough equivalent of three subs. This is what I do in my primary system, and I'm very pleased with the results. It also allows me to best place the mains for imaging rather than worry about bass tuning the mains, which can be one of the most frustrating experiences in audio. I use a 100Hz low-pass setting on the sub, and in combination with the PEQs there's a near-perfect match to the mains.

For measuring frequency response at your seating position I recommend either REW or OmniMic II. I use the OmniMic just because it's a foolproof solution, and I have more money than sense. It sounds like you do too, from your equipment lists.

For in-room frequency response I go for as flat a bass response as possible, that tilts upward from 80Hz to +3db at 30Hz, at least in my current room. In my previous room, which was much more lossy for bass, +5db at 30Hz sounded more natural.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
I may be able to do two subs for my budget but three is out. I also don’t have room for three. Two is pushing it in this room. Two HSU ULS subs would do in my price range. I still go back to the JLAudio sub since
It has all my connections I need. Also if I were to ever run my Kef’s again I could use the high pass cut off if I’m running my Marantz gear.
 
Forsooth

Forsooth

Audioholic
,,,SVS has sealed 12s but seems like many owners upgrade away from them quickly so not sure they are perfect..
I've got 2 SVS 12" sealed subwoofers on my short list for audio. It may be that folks who have bought them assumed that they will reach as low as the ported versions.
 
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snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I've got 2 SVS 12" sealed subwoofers on my short list for audio. It may be that folks who have bought them assumed that they will reach as low as the ported versions.
People like the PB2000 ported 12s a lot though.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I've got 2 SVS 12" sealed subwoofers on my short list for audio. It may be that folks who have bought them assumed that they will reach as low as the ported versions.
My opinion on this is that SVS tunes their less expensive sealed subs to behave more like a ported sub. IOW, instead of having a gradual roll-off they have a fairly abrupt "knee" with a fast drop off below it. Here is the FR for the SB1000 (12" - sealed). The "knee" is around 27Hz. This is not "sealed sub" performance, and SVS gives you no way to adjust or tune it!



I am happy to see that the new SVS SB2000 departs from their previous 2nd tier model in that they are no longer aggressively tuning it to try to get 20Hz flat anechoic response. This graph says a lot!


This is a more typical sealed sub response with a gradual roll-off start in the 35-40Hz area! (I do believe SVS adds some DSP, but not nearly so aggressive as the SB1000). If you added the same 7dB/octave room gain starting at 40Hz to the SB1000, you would quickly realize that you have bloated lower bass which will cause your entire system to just sound muddy!

Let's think about this. SVS is aggressively pushing the limits of their least expensive sealed sub to extend anechoically flat down to around 27Hz, while taking their next model with a better driver and a larger box and more or less allowing it to behave naturally.
SVS knows a lot about designing subs, but they are also the most successful ID sub company (I don't know this as absolute fact, but they seem the biggest/most growth). So the only conclusion I can reach is they have made a marketing decision to have the SB1000 impress unsophisticated buyers with amazingly deep bass coming from a comparatively small box at the deliberate expense of sound quality, and that is working for them.
I personally could see using the SB1000 in an all HT system where the sloppy bass would just be more Umph when the dinosaurs stomp (and that is kind of cool and often still not as much Umph as reality - in the case of a near-by explosion). But the last thing I want is more Umph when a low note or bass drum hit happens in music, I want properly balanced Umph!

So if you are looking for a sealed sub for the traditional reason ("fast and tight" bass),my take-away is to be wary of sealed subs which do not have a gradual roll-off starting around 35-40Hz. RoomEQ like Audyssey may or may not be able to correctly interpret/correct this situation (I, personally, have not been satisfied). I am pretty sure miniDSP and REW can do the job, but either way, it is far wiser to start out with a more natural response. If you have a larger room then the room gain would be less, or more for a smaller room - good question for SVS if you are uncertain about your specific room). The Hsu ULS, Rythmik, PSA S1500 and SVS Ultra SB series all offer tuning adjustments to help match your room gain.

If you are wanting a sub to do dual duty for music and HT and decide to get a ported sub, look for the ability to tune the sub with plugs for the ports. These generally do not perform quite so well in the sealed role because the driver is specified to be capable of ported performance (which is a small but real compromise),however, a quality ported sub can do fairly well with music. Here are the FR's Josh Ricci measured for the different modes of the ported SVS PB13 Ultra (there are more tuning options, but this gives you a sense without too much clutter). As you can see the "sealed" mode (pink) does a decent job of looking like a sealed subwoofer:
 
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speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
My former room was 12' X 15' coming in at 1,440 ft.^3. I have had a single sealed 15" sub that did very well. Then, I moved to (2) sealed 15" subs and noticed a HUGE difference. Still yet, at one time I even had (4) sealed 12" subs and much preferred the dual sealed 15" subs.

Was able to get tight, fast, punchy, and very well articulated bass which made me very happy. I can NOT recommend the Hsu ULS 15 MK2 sub enough! Got mine for $762 shipped B-stock. Never found anything wrong with it. However, dual SVS SB12-NSD's would do a decent job. But, dual ULS 15 MK2's would be much better inmho. I am also sure that the Rythmik L12's would also be a good option for the OP as well.


Cheers,

Phil
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I still go back to the JLAudio sub since
It has all my connections I need.
I have a pair of e112's in great condition that I'll give you a deal on!
IMHO, they are good for one thing - Great HT bass from a small box!
These are essentially SB1000's on steroids (read my post above)! They go deep and are comparatively tiny!
Just as the SB1000, they are designed to perform like a ported sub (anechoically flat to low 20Hz IIRC). They add a significant SPL increase to the SB1000. As far as I'm concerned, the only good reason to buy one of these is if WAF is a high priority and you don't want to compromise on HT performance any more than you absolutely have to!
You can get essentially the same performance in a ported sub for much less without the expense of such a beast of a driver to overcome the liability of the small and sealed design. But if you are looking for the "tight and fast" sound of a sealed sub, this is not where you will find it!

Note: in both of my posts I have put "tight and fast" in quotations. This is because, according to Josh Ricci, if you want a sub that has the characteristic most people are thinking of when they are looking for a "tight and fast" sub, the measurement to look at is the FR and it is having higher energy (SPL) at higher frequencies as compared to SPL at lower frequencies. Obviously, not a typical ported sub after room gain from a typical room! This doesn't make any intuitive sense to me, but I respect Ricci's experience and looking at the subs I have experienced there is a consistent correlation between the subs I perceive as "tight and fast" and having a FR curve closer to a traditional sealed subwoofer!
 
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William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I personally could see using the SB1000 in an all HT system where the sloppy bass would just be more Umph when the dinosaurs stomp (and that is kind of cool and often still not as much Umph as reality - in the case of a near-by explosion).
The rest was very well said, but I have to disagree with this part. Sloppy bass just sucks no matter where it is. IME there are some good soundtracks out there with bass that is quite textured. Something a non linear sloppy sub would gloss over. Just like it would with music.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Yes. Revels do full range very well. I just got these recently and have been using them without a sub. I do however think that a little more low end is needed as I am a bit of a bass head. I want to go a little lower but I Don’t want to intrude on the Revels fantastic full range. Hints why I am looking for a really good sub.
Why? If he's setting up a music only system where stuff don't go that low anyway, how could he justify purchasing an expensive sub.
 

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