should i replace drivers ?

[old_el_paseo]

Hello

i have infinity il30's. they work fine but im always looking for better. i have 2 JBL selenium 6w4p that i bought in september. still new in box but project was cancelled. they are same size as drivers in my il30's. i was wondering if i should install the drivers in place of the infinity il30 drivers. they are both 8 ohms and 100wrms and 6 inch.
i bought the infinity set used, but i think these are pretty old (end of the 90's ?). So would all the new tech in the JBL make them sound better than the old il30's ?

thanks for your comments

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello

i have infinity il30's. they work fine but im always looking for better. i have 2 JBL selenium 6w4p that i bought in september. still new in box but project was cancelled. they are same size as drivers in my il30's. i was wondering if i should install the drivers in place of the infinity il30 drivers. they are both 8 ohms and 100wrms and 6 inch.
i bought the infinity set used, but i think these are pretty old (end of the 90's ?). So would all the new tech in the JBL make them sound better than the old il30's ?

thanks for your comments

No, you will ruin your Infinity speakers. The T/S parameters of the JBL drivers will be way different as will their acoustic responses.

You can NOT take a speaker and change drivers.

 

[lovinthehd]

This article may help you understand the T/S parameters https://www.eminence.com/support/understanding-loudspeaker-data/

 

[old_el_paseo]

ok thanks. i dont know what the t/s parameters are for the drivers in my il30. I do have them for my jbl. but ill follow youre advice and leave the infinity ones there.
thanks

 

[lovinthehd]

What was the project you originally got the JBL drivers for?

 

[TLS Guy]

ok thanks. i dont know what the t/s parameters are for the drivers in my il30. I do have them for my jbl. but ill follow youre advice and leave the infinity ones there.
thanks

Well it is a very good job you did not install those drivers. Although sold as woofers they are not. In the JBL application sheet they are for midrange use.

They are high Qts drivers, handle a lot of power and are very sensitive. Xmax is low. They can not be used in a ported enclosure and in a closed box response falls off below 200 Hz, with a 3 db point of 150 Hz.

So their application is as a mid range driver from 180 Hz to 2000 Hz.

I don't know what you bought them for, but these are midrange drivers for high powered applications on night clubs. Not really a home audio driver. Sounds like Parts Express bought too many of them. They are selling them off cheap as overstock.

I guess they should have read the JBL application document as well!

 

[MR.MAGOO]

if they are drunk I'd seriously consider replacing drivers....oops sorry, wrong forum.

 

[old_el_paseo]

why i bought these, i asked the guy for a small subwoofer for my racing simulator seat. when i got home and started researching the sub i noticed that this is not a sub and just left it in the basement since. Monday i realised that i should buy another one to replace the door speakers in my car (they powered by an amp so the 4 ohm to 8 ohm power drop wont matter much).
i was gonna install these in the door and add some tweeters in the front pillar.
but then i just wondered if it would be better than my home infinity speakers. but from your comments ill leave my infinity speakers as they are.
i dont know what ill be doing with these. i guess ill install them in my front doors (with a water protector of course). not much else i can do with these. the amp will cut the at about 100hz (below 100hz is sent to the sub in the trunk).
not much else i can do with these, unless you have better suggestions

 

[TLS Guy]

why i bought these, i asked the guy for a small subwoofer for my racing simulator seat. when i got home and started researching the sub i noticed that this is not a sub and just left it in the basement since. Monday i realised that i should buy another one to replace the door speakers in my car (they powered by an amp so the 4 ohm to 8 ohm power drop wont matter much).
i was gonna install these in the door and add some tweeters in the front pillar.
but then i just wondered if it would be better than my home infinity speakers. but from your comments ill leave my infinity speakers as they are.
i dont know what ill be doing with these. i guess ill install them in my front doors (with a water protector of course). not much else i can do with these. the amp will cut the at about 100hz (below 100hz is sent to the sub in the trunk).
not much else i can do with these, unless you have better suggestions

I think if you put them in the door you will destroy them. They have a very lax suspension Qts is a whopping 0.83, with a low excursion. They also have a powerful motor system and are very sensitive. That means that unless they are in a very small sealed box, to provide restoring force to the cone, the suspension will be quickly destroyed. Also they will not play down to 100 Hz, not even close.

As stated these are NOT woofers. I know they are sold as that, but they are not. In the JBL application sheet they are a for high powered mid range use, and in that capacity would work well, but definitely not as a woofer.

So these are only as use as a mid range driver in a three way system.

 

[old_el_paseo]

then i guess the only thing to do is build some kick ass front towers. i currently have 2 infinity il30, 2 infinity il10 and an infinity il25c. i will be upgrading from 5.1 to 7.1 when we get a bigger house this summer.

so i could use the 2 il30 and il10 for the rear side and rear surrounds. and build some kick ass front towers.
i have 4 jl audio 8w1 (v1) that im not really using. i could use the 8'' jl's for the 200hz and down. the jbl 6w4p for the 200hz to tweeter cutoff point. and buy some good tweeters.

the jl's 8w1 are 4ohms but i have 4 (or i could also bi-amp the front towers. they are car speakers but i guess that doesnt matter ? they are still great little subs ! )

i also have to jl 12w3 (v1) that im using for the low's so i could cut off the jl 8w1 at around 40hz to keep the sound clear.

here are the specs to the jl 8w1 specs.

i would just need to build good and nice front tower enlosures (the 8' jls would be ported). with a small sealed enclosure for the jbl mid's. and buy a good quality tweeter !

 

[TLS Guy]

then i guess the only thing to do is build some kick ass front towers. i currently have 2 infinity il30, 2 infinity il10 and an infinity il25c. i will be upgrading from 5.1 to 7.1 when we get a bigger house this summer.

so i could use the 2 il30 and il10 for the rear side and rear surrounds. and build some kick ass front towers.
i have 4 jl audio 8w1 (v1) that im not really using. i could use the 8'' jl's for the 200hz and down. the jbl 6w4p for the 200hz to tweeter cutoff point. and buy some good tweeters.

the jl's 8w1 are 4ohms but i have 4 (or i could also bi-amp the front towers. they are car speakers but i guess that doesnt matter ? they are still great little subs ! )

i also have to jl 12w3 (v1) that im using for the low's so i could cut off the jl 8w1 at around 40hz to keep the sound clear.

here are the specs to the jl 8w1 specs.

i would just need to build good and nice front tower enlosures (the 8' jls would be ported). with a small sealed enclosure for the jbl mid's. and buy a good quality tweeter !

I think that is a doable project, but have not modeled those drivers. Just be aware that car subs often prove totally unsuitable for home audio when you go to model them.

You will need to biamp the speakers with electronic crossover at least for the cross of mid to woofer.

This is for two reasons. Passive crossovers do not work well at low frequencies. You must cross low as those JBL mids have a pretty narrow bandwidth, so there are band pass gain issues. I think the cross will need to be 180 Hz on the lower end and to the tweeters somewhere in the 2 to 2.5K range.

Also there is too big a sensitivity miss match between the drivers for a passive crossover.

How big you can tolerate the size if the speakers will determine if you use 2 or 4 drivers. Using two to a box would be best, in which case buying a 2 ohm stable amp would be best, as that would avoid a series woofer connection.

If you are really serious about this I can do some work on it. Just dead reckoning the T/S parameters of those JW woofers I suspect this is a viable project as long as it is biamped.

If you are serious buying another couple of those MTM mids would not be a bad idea, then we could make the design MTM. Those drivers are on overstock clearance at Parts Express now and are cheap as chips for a driver of the quality they seem to be.

I have a feeling it would be possible to make a speaker with what you have comparable to a 12 to 15 K speaker retail.

This tweeter would be perfect for the project.

 

[old_el_paseo]

sorry im not to familiar with the terms. i know a lot about car audio but im still new to home audio. i bought those infinity speakers due to their reputation of quality sound. and they are just as the said. sensitivity leaves to be desired, but sound quality is great. and they must be accompanied by a sub (i currently have 900 watts rms going to 2 JL audio 12w3 subs and 2 JL audio 8w1 so no problem there).

by modeling the sub's i think you mean get the spec's for the speaker box size, port hole diameter and lenght ? those are all stated in the user manual. 21.2 liters with a 2.5''x 12.5'' port. so that would be 42.4 liters for the 2 subs and will ask JL about the port size when 2 drivers are in the same box.

they would be pretty massive front towers but if i make them pleasant to the eye, i dont think the wife would mind that much. i will bi-amp them. so about 200 wrms to the 2 8'' subs in each tower. and the main amp would take care of the mid's and tweeters.

by MTM i guess you mean midrange tweeter midrange (tweeter between the 2 midrange speakers. what would be the advantage of that ? is it just for power handling, or would the tweeter between the 2 midrange drivers provide a better soundstage ?

what im really looking for is a great sound quality, spl is not that much of an importance factor.

as for the tweeters. i have heard about scan-speak, i heard they have some of the best sounding tweeters. im pretty discriminating about tweeters, i feel that some of them cause a lot of listening fatigue. would there be a better option for the tweeters at a reasonable price ? or would these really sound good ?

thanks for answering all my questions, i owe you a beer

 

[TLS Guy]

sorry im not to familiar with the terms. i know a lot about car audio but im still new to home audio. i bought those infinity speakers due to their reputation of quality sound. and they are just as the said. sensitivity leaves to be desired, but sound quality is great. and they must be accompanied by a sub (i currently have 900 watts rms going to 2 JL audio 12w3 subs and 2 JL audio 8w1 so no problem there).

by modeling the sub's i think you mean get the spec's for the speaker box size, port hole diameter and lenght ? those are all stated in the user manual. 21.2 liters with a 2.5''x 12.5'' port. so that would be 42.4 liters for the 2 subs and will ask JL about the port size when 2 drivers are in the same box.

they would be pretty massive front towers but if i make them pleasant to the eye, i dont think the wife would mind that much. i will bi-amp them. so about 200 wrms to the 2 8'' subs in each tower. and the main amp would take care of the mid's and tweeters.

by MTM i guess you mean midrange tweeter midrange (tweeter between the 2 midrange speakers. what would be the advantage of that ? is it just for power handling, or would the tweeter between the 2 midrange drivers provide a better soundstage ?

what im really looking for is a great sound quality, spl is not that much of an importance factor.

as for the tweeters. i have heard about scan-speak, i heard they have some of the best sounding tweeters. im pretty discriminating about tweeters, i feel that some of them cause a lot of listening fatigue. would there be a better option for the tweeters at a reasonable price ? or would these really sound good ?

thanks for answering all my questions, i owe you a beer

For home audio those jl drivers you have are not really subs but just woofers. They would be a sub for a car.

I do not trust the boxes on the sec. sheet. I do my own models, and model the response.

Do you want the speakers to have one woofer and mid in each speaker or two of each. Actually the best speaker would be WMTMW. That is what I think would be best.

 

[old_el_paseo]

i have 4 jl 8'' drivers so i guess i might as well use them all, so 2 8'' drivers per tower. i know that for car audio we usually just use the specs on the manufacturer sheets. but if you know how to calculate all the parameters it would be great. i guess you would ''tune'' the size and port to the frequencies that are dedicated to the specific drivers.
i do have 2 dedicated 12'' subs that handle the 27hz to 80 hz, so no need to waste power and clarity on outputting 40hz on the front towers i guess.
so how would you do that ? i mean what frequencies would be dedicated to the subs and what frequencies would be dedicated to the mids and tweeter ?
also, is there a reason for the 2 mids and positioning of them (w-m-t-m-w) ?

i know its a lot of questions. but this would be a big project, id just like to know what im doing. you know what they say. give a man a fish, feed him for a day. teach a man how to fish, feed him for life

thanks

 

[TLS Guy]

i have 4 jl 8'' drivers so i guess i might as well use them all, so 2 8'' drivers per tower. i know that for car audio we usually just use the specs on the manufacturer sheets. but if you know how to calculate all the parameters it would be great. i guess you would ''tune'' the size and port to the frequencies that are dedicated to the specific drivers.
i do have 2 dedicated 12'' subs that handle the 27hz to 80 hz, so no need to waste power and clarity on outputting 40hz on the front towers i guess.
so how would you do that ? i mean what frequencies would be dedicated to the subs and what frequencies would be dedicated to the mids and tweeter ?
also, is there a reason for the 2 mids and positioning of them (w-m-t-m-w) ?

i know its a lot of questions. but this would be a big project, id just like to know what im doing. you know what they say. give a man a fish, feed him for a day. teach a man how to fish, feed him for life

thanks

Well crossovers need to be at least 2 octaves apart. If not you can not control the band pass gain. So your mids by spec. need to run from 30 to 180 Hz.

The mids from 180 Hz to around 2 KHz.

If you are going to use a sub, then in this case you would run the speakers I'm proposing to design full range and supplement with a sub cutting in around 40 to 60 Hz.

If your sub only goes to 30 Hz then there will be no point in using it. You will need a sub that goes down to the low 20 Hz range at least.

I will model that 12" driver also.

My wife turned 70 this Friday and we have been celebrating. We are going to the opera tomorrow. Anyhow I will get to this project as I can. I think it likely is a really good DIY project. I have good design software.
Regards, Mark

 

[TLS Guy]

Well crossovers need to be at least 2 octaves apart. If not you can not control the band pass gain. So your mids by spec. need to run from 30 to 180 Hz.

The mids from 180 Hz to around 2 KHz.

If you are going to use a sub, then in this case you would run the speakers I'm proposing to design full range and supplement with a sub cutting in around 40 to 60 Hz.

If your sub only goes to 30 Hz then there will be no point in using it. You will need a sub that goes down to the low 20 Hz range at least.

I will model that 12" driver also.

My wife turned 70 this Friday and we have been celebrating. We are going to the opera tomorrow. Anyhow I will get to this project as I can. I think it likely is a really good DIY project. I have good design software.
Regards, Mark

This project is going to take some time. I will have to push it off until next week. I'm travelling back to our main residence on Benedict Lake tomorrow. I should have time there. I'm coming back to the Cities Thursday for my grandson's robotics competition. He is build captain for his school and in charge of the engineering design build and pit crew. They made the semifinals in the first power up in Grand Forks.

 

[old_el_paseo]

well then, say happy birthday to her. my wife will be 43 this thursday. so we were celebrating that saturday. good food and good beer !

that would be great if you could model the speaker cabinets ! i researched about mtm advantages. i mostly use it for movies, so i guess it would be good to have mtm over a traditional mt design. i will probably buy 2 other 6w4p drivers.

but i was thinking about it. if i do a w-m-t-m-w desing, those things would be huge ? what would be the dimensions about ? because i might have some w.a.f problems with that...

i dont think i will be buying more subs for a while, those 12'' subs are bad ass drivers. im very satisfied with them. having good enclosures would help since now they are in sealed enclosures that are too small (i had them already from prior car enclosures. but already they shake everything in the house and have great sound. those jl audio 12w3 drivers are a legend in the car audio. But the correct enclosures sure would be better !

as for the front towers. that would be great if someone with experience would model them. i would build them when temperature goes up and i am able to work wood outside. i will probably have to have someone help me to make them pleasant to the eye (not just rectangles with drivers). But i will have to evaluate the size of them with different configs (w-m-t-m-w vs w-m-t vs w-w-m-t vs w-m-t-m...) maybe sealed vs proted for the 8''... what would be your opinion on that ? My priority is sound quality and of course w.a.f.

thanks for your time and help.

 

[TLS Guy]

well then, say happy birthday to her. my wife will be 43 this thursday. so we were celebrating that saturday. good food and good beer !

that would be great if you could model the speaker cabinets ! i researched about mtm advantages. i mostly use it for movies, so i guess it would be good to have mtm over a traditional mt design. i will probably buy 2 other 6w4p drivers.

but i was thinking about it. if i do a w-m-t-m-w desing, those things would be huge ? what would be the dimensions about ? because i might have some w.a.f problems with that...

i dont think i will be buying more subs for a while, those 12'' subs are bad ass drivers. im very satisfied with them. having good enclosures would help since now they are in sealed enclosures that are too small (i had them already from prior car enclosures. but already they shake everything in the house and have great sound. those jl audio 12w3 drivers are a legend in the car audio. But the correct enclosures sure would be better !

as for the front towers. that would be great if someone with experience would model them. i would build them when temperature goes up and i am able to work wood outside. i will probably have to have someone help me to make them pleasant to the eye (not just rectangles with drivers). But i will have to evaluate the size of them with different configs (w-m-t-m-w vs w-m-t vs w-w-m-t vs w-m-t-m...) maybe sealed vs proted for the 8''... what would be your opinion on that ? My priority is sound quality and of course w.a.f.

thanks for your time and help.

If there is WAF involved I will design for just one woofer. That will halve the speaker volume.

As for sealed versus ported, I will have to do the modelling.

 

[old_el_paseo]

ok thanks. if there is not a very big difference in size between one and 2 woffers i would really prefer 2 woofers. all depends on volume size if woofer enclosure. i asked my wife to look up on google for what she finds acceptable. i would really prefer a w-m-t-m-w desing as these would really be able to fill up the room with sound. but ill let you know once she looks that up and you can give me a volume size for the woofer enclosure. if the difference is not huge between 1 and 2 woofers i will build 2 woofers.
as for sealed vs ported, wich one would give bet quality sound ? since they would not go very low in frequency i think that sealed would be best, but im not sure.

 

[TLS Guy]

ok thanks. if there is not a very big difference in size between one and 2 woffers i would really prefer 2 woofers. all depends on volume size if woofer enclosure. i asked my wife to look up on google for what she finds acceptable. i would really prefer a w-m-t-m-w desing as these would really be able to fill up the room with sound. but ill let you know once she looks that up and you can give me a volume size for the woofer enclosure. if the difference is not huge between 1 and 2 woofers i will build 2 woofers.
as for sealed vs ported, wich one would give bet quality sound ? since they would not go very low in frequency i think that sealed would be best, but im not sure.

Got it. The T/S by dead reckoning is hard to glean, but it looks like ported probably. We will see.