WAF => A new beginning? Where should one start?

[Pogre]

These Davones ooze such thick molasses of WAF you culd cut it with scissors before it drips all over the floor.
View attachment 22096

It's just that they are stupid expensive. Come on, show this pic to you lady and ask her for opinion. I wanna see if there's such a thing as universal WAF.

I'll ask my wife what she thinks when she gets home.

"They're ugly"

Pretty short and sweet.

 

[Pogre]

Yikes!

Sorry, I'm late in chiming in. Almost 3 weeks ago the renovations started on our home. My wife's dream kitchen morphed into the whole main floor

.

So we have nothing on that floor as the contractor have ripped out sinks, counters, walls, ceilings, and all the flooring. Our three computer work stations are no longer as well. (I don't think they fit into the new design either. Something about having to move on from early college decor, I'm told.) All the couches, love seats, dining room suite, coffee tables, etc., are gone. I moved the modem and router to the basement, and my Main PC to my home office upstairs in a bedroom we use for guests and work.

Other than some trim work on the doors, the upstairs bedrooms will not be touched. However, as the ceilings were ripped out, I'm taking the opportunity to pre-wire under tile for the master en-suite; and I'm pulling various cables (speakers, CAT, TV, etc) while everything is exposed. So after work, I've little free time for anything else.

It's supposed to be "substantially complete" by Christmas.

Meantime we are jammed into the basement with no stove. I was able to temporarily install a dishwasher into the basement bathroom, and we've got the old microwave, refrigerator, here as well. (All will be replaced upstairs). I still BBQ and will do more even though the inclement weather is coming more and more. I'm supposed to be researching a Toaster Oven but haven't had time.

We've been saving for this for about 7 years, but should have planned more. We've done every type of take out in the area, as cooking in these tight conditions is tough. But oh well, we are into it => and "it is what it is".

So I won't have much time here for a while, but I'm going to float some white SVS Ultra Bookshelf Speakers for the fronts of the Family room HT set-up. This decision is only based on the input here as I've never heard them, and I think being in white, I may get them past the Misses. I decided to stay with a 5.1 configuration there, but I am seriously thinking of ceiling speakers (OMG!) for an Atmos addition to the games room 6.1 set-up. Any idea for reasonably priced in ceiling speakers for that?

Wish me Luck?

Thanks for your input and replies.

Good luck! I don't think you'll be disappointed. The Ultras are legit good speakers and reviewed very well here. If they pass WAF I think they'll also pass for quality sound.

 

[-Jim-]

Hi Gents,

Thanks for the inputs. I probably should have stated I have been using JBL Loft 30s for surrounds and they timber matched the now unwelcomed JBL L-36 quite well. They only have a 4 inch woofer & 1 inch dome tweeter. Everything I see in-wall is vastly larger and typically 6 or 8 inch woofers. Of course in HT, I typically set the crossovers around 80 Hz. as the Sub takes care of everything below 80. So I'm really not looking for much bass output for the two pairs of In-Wall Speakers.

As we seem to be headed towards white SVS Ultra Bookshelf => Sensitivity: 87 dB (2.83V @ 1 meter full-space, 300-3kHz) Rated bandwidth: 45 Hz-32 kHz (+/-3 dB) They have an Aluminum Dome Tweeter so I guess I should look to something that timber matches with similar construction.

So if anyone uses SVS Ultra Bookshelf Speakers as their Fronts and an In-Wall for surrounds, it would be great if they chimed in on their experience.

I noticed the RBH VM610 have Aluminum Dome Tweeters (and Woofer) and may sound okay with the Ultras, but technical reviews on any of these In-Wall, or In-Ceiling, speakers is hard to come by.

I found out the built in cabinet below the TV in the Family Room will be 30 inches high. Allowing a minimum of 8 inches below it for a Center Channel Speaker, has the bottom of the 55" LED Samsung at 38 inches. (The middle is at 42" and the top at 66") Now if we creep it up another 7 inches, there is room for a SVS Ultra Bookshelf as the Center. But somehow, I don't know if the we want a TV that high.

My Misses thinks there are variable TV wall mounts that allow you to move the TV around on an arm up, down, and side to side as well as in and out. The one I have (and was going to use as it's a good one) does everything but the up and down. Have you ever heard of one like she describes?

Thanks for the assist.

 

[everettT]

Hi Gents,

Thanks for the inputs. I probably should have stated I have been using JBL Loft 30s for surrounds and they timber matched the now unwelcomed JBL L-36 quite well. They only have a 4 inch woofer & 1 inch dome tweeter. Everything I see in-wall is vastly larger and typically 6 or 8 inch woofers. Of course in HT, I typically set the crossovers around 80 Hz. as the Sub takes care of everything below 80. So I'm really not looking for much bass output for the two pairs of In-Wall Speakers.

As we seem to be headed towards white SVS Ultra Bookshelf => Sensitivity: 87 dB (2.83V @ 1 meter full-space, 300-3kHz) Rated bandwidth: 45 Hz-32 kHz (+/-3 dB) They have an Aluminum Dome Tweeter so I guess I should look to something that timber matches with similar construction.

So if anyone uses SVS Ultra Bookshelf Speakers as their Fronts and an In-Wall for surrounds, it would be great if they chimed in on their experience.

I noticed the RBH VM610 have Aluminum Dome Tweeters (and Woofer) and may sound okay with the Ultras, but technical reviews on any of these In-Wall, or In-Ceiling, speakers is hard to come by.

I found out the built in cabinet below the TV in the Family Room will be 30 inches high. Allowing a minimum of 8 inches below it for a Center Channel Speaker, has the bottom of the 55" LED Samsung at 38 inches. (The middle is at 42" and the top at 66") Now if we creep it up another 7 inches, there is room for a SVS Ultra Bookshelf as the Center. But somehow, I don't know if the we want a TV that high.

My Misses thinks there are variable TV wall mounts that allow you to move the TV around on an arm up, down, and side to side as well as in and out. The one I have (and was going to use as it's a good one) does everything but the up and down. Have you ever heard of one like she describes?

Thanks for the assist.

Yes they make swivel and tilt mounts. My suggestion if you go that route is to recess it into the wall as it will look a lot cleaner. As for the tv height, adding 7" more is going to push it even with a 10 degree tilt IMHO. ( it will be close not knowing the acceptable viewing angle of your display)

 

[DigitalDawn]

Jim,

Triad makes great Bipole Surrounds and they will color paint match them to the color of your walls.

If I can help you with Triad, let me know.

 

[Pogre]

My tv is mounted higher than I wanted, but turned out to not be a deal at all. I recline slightly in my chair and it's really just about perfect. I believe I could go even a little higher before it became uncomfortable.

 

[-Jim-]

Hi Gents,

My Misses still is unsure on TV Height but I did find a couple of TV Mounts that give vertical adjustment:

As long as the TV is 50 pounds or less, you can move it up or down 5 inches (from the midpoint)

North Bayou Universal Full Motion Articulating Gas Spring Wall Monitor TV Mount F400 for LED, LCD, Flat Panel Screens 50" - 60" inch, support load from 30.8 to 50 lbs. (The Samsung UN55ES6150 weighs 35.7 pounds without the stand.)

https://www.amazon.ca/Universal-Articulating-Monitor-F400-Screens/dp/B01B2O8VQM/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1510991549&sr=8-10&keywords=tv+mount+wall+full+motion

I found another that's about 12.5 inches of up and down from center. (About 25 overall.) It's a bit pricey.

https://dynamicmounting.com/purchase/

This is all I could find on viewing angle (from a review):

As with any LED/LCD TV with a matte or semi-matte screen finish your viewing angles are going to suffer. The ES6100 is not worse than others in this area, in fact it may be better but contrast/saturation diminished by around 20% at 25 to 30 degrees off center. Stay front and center for the best results from this TV.

My Misses has decided that after all the work to run hidden speaker wires in ceiling / walls, that she only requires in-wall speakers for the Family Room. She says I can hang my "old stuff" in the Games Room as long as they are high enough folks won't bang there heads into them.

The wiring is almost complete. I've decided to go to 7.1.0 for the Games Room but will wire it for 7.2.4. (In its last iteration it was 6.1). All of the literature I've read gives, either different data on the Atmos Speakers, or just talks in generalities. Maybe you know of some definitive instructions for in-ceiling speaker positions?

I have a Denon AVR-900W in the games room presently so an upgrade there will be required to get to 7.1.4 or 7.2.4. However, I have read folks use the front pair of Atmos speakers for height channels for Dolby Pro Logic IIz, so I may get to try that out if I buy in-ceiling speakers on Friday.

I still need to get a definitive answer on the SVS Ultra Bookshelf as well. I decided to pull the wires for them 24 inches from the corners, about 4 inches above the cabinet. I know it's arbitrary, but I can't wait to test them and find out 100% where they should go. If they have to stray a bit toward or away from the corner, we'll live with it.

 

[Pogre]

I didn't find the Ultra bookshelf to be too picky with placement. The towers are less forgiving tho.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hi Gents,

My Misses still is unsure on TV Height but I did find a couple of TV Mounts that give vertical adjustment:

As long as the TV is 50 pounds or less, you can move it up or down 5 inches (from the midpoint)

North Bayou Universal Full Motion Articulating Gas Spring Wall Monitor TV Mount F400 for LED, LCD, Flat Panel Screens 50" - 60" inch, support load from 30.8 to 50 lbs. (The Samsung UN55ES6150 weighs 35.7 pounds without the stand.)

https://www.amazon.ca/Universal-Articulating-Monitor-F400-Screens/dp/B01B2O8VQM/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1510991549&sr=8-10&keywords=tv+mount+wall+full+motion

I found another that's about 12.5 inches of up and down from center. (About 25 overall.) It's a bit pricey.

https://dynamicmounting.com/purchase/

This is all I could find on viewing angle (from a review):

As with any LED/LCD TV with a matte or semi-matte screen finish your viewing angles are going to suffer. The ES6100 is not worse than others in this area, in fact it may be better but contrast/saturation diminished by around 20% at 25 to 30 degrees off center. Stay front and center for the best results from this TV.

My Misses has decided that after all the work to run hidden speaker wires in ceiling / walls, that she only requires in-wall speakers for the Family Room. She says I can hang my "old stuff" in the Games Room as long as they are high enough folks won't bang there heads into them.

The wiring is almost complete. I've decided to go to 7.1.0 for the Games Room but will wire it for 7.2.4. (In its last iteration it was 6.1). All of the literature I've read gives, either different data on the Atmos Speakers, or just talks in generalities. Maybe you know of some definitive instructions for in-ceiling speaker positions?

I have a Denon AVR-900W in the games room presently so an upgrade there will be required to get to 7.1.4 or 7.2.4. However, I have read folks use the front pair of Atmos speakers for height channels for Dolby Pro Logic IIz, so I may get to try that out if I buy in-ceiling speakers on Friday.

I still need to get a definitive answer on the SVS Ultra Bookshelf as well. I decided to pull the wires for them 24 inches from the corners, about 4 inches above the cabinet. I know it's arbitrary, but I can't wait to test them and find out 100% where they should go. If they have to stray a bit toward or away from the corner, we'll live with it.

This is a good resource. Take the time to read it thoroughly and you should find all you need.
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

 

[-Jim-]

Thanks for the Dolby Atmos Guide William!

I'll read it before pulling the Cables for the In-Ceiling Speakers. And speaking of those, I pulled the trigger tonight and bought 4 Polk MC60 In-Ceiling Speakers from Fry's in the USA for less than I can get one locally here in Vancouver, Canada.

https://www.polkaudio.com/products/mc60

It comes with free shipping in the USA. My Mom lives 5 minutes from the Border in Point Roberts, WA and we get all kinds of stuff shipped there from time to time. I'm in no hurry for them, but it was a deal I didn't want to let pass by. Decent reviews (from what I could find) and a 5 year warranty.

Now I need to get some more in-wall Speaker Cable, before the Drywall goes up! And focus on the In-Wall speakers for the Family Room.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Roger that! My atmos update is in its infancy, but I happened to be going through the guide(again) when I noticed you might benefit. FWIW, I’ve got a pair of rc85i in one of my rooms. They’re really pretty good. I think you’ll like yours.

 

[-Jim-]

Gents,

I bought another Box of in the wall wire for the Games Room's last rear and Atmos Speakers. I've read the Dolby Atmos Guide focussing on the 7.1.4 setup, with overhead Atmos Speakers. And I've tried to make sense of how to lay them all out based on our weird room geometry.

I hope you can understand it. I took the original image from the Dolby Atmos Guide and used SnagIt to manipulate it. The Sub & LF Speaker is under a corner window in the upper left. The seating is actually 3 Lazyboy Recliners, but I left it as a couch. Think of my seat is the sweet spot. The seating position is not fixed as it could easily be more towards the TV, almost to the arrow indicating the 197 inch room width.

I haven't pulled the new wires for the Atmos Speakers, nor finalised the Left & Right or Rear Surrounds yet as I'd like your input. The Left Side surround is a little farther back than normal Dolby Spec as the window box it will be placed it limits it to that small 18 inch wall or a similar one that's too far forward of the seats. I'm pretty close to going with this position.

#1 Any comments here?

#2 The forward Atmos Ceiling placement seems to need to be in line with the Front Left and Right speakers respectively, about half way from the Front speakers to the seating area. Is that correct?

#3 Similarly both the Rear Surrounds and Rear Atmos are positioned as the Forward Atmos speakers in line with the Left & Right Front speakers, but unlike the 5.1.4 setup (where the Rear Atmos Speakers appear to be about the same distance behind the seating area as the Front Atmos speakers are in front of the seating area) the Rear Atmos speakers in a 7.1.4 are placed directly above the Rear Surrounds => which in my case were going to be mounted on brackets onto the rear wall.

Now to me this just seems like they are now too far back of the seating area (~ 7 feet?) to be of much effect; and as my wife wants me to mount the Rear Surrounds where no one can bump their head, to above 72 inches which is higher than Spec (the maximum Dolby Spec I could find is is about 50 inches): these speakers will be within a couple feet of each other, and that seems silly.

So to me I have 3 choices here.

A) Do it as per the drawing I've posted.

B) Delete the Rear Surrounds and go to a 5.1.4 with the Rear Atmos Speakers positioned correctly for it. (If this is chosen, I could try to setup my present Denon Receiver with the Rear Atmos Speakers as the Rear Surrounds until I buy a new Receiver.)

C) Delete the Rear Atmos Speakers and go to a 7.1.2 configuration. (If this is chosen, I could try to setup my present Denon Receiver with the Front Atmos Speakers as the Front height channels for Dolby Pro Logic IIz until I buy a new Receiver.)

Can you provide any opinion on which configuration makes the most sense to you? I need to wire this soon, so timely replies would be appreciated.

And before I forget, I'm still looking for a good deal on Black Friday for some In Wall Speakers for the Family Room 5.1 system's Rear Surrounds. IF you've seen any please advise ASAP.

Thanks for the assist.

 

[-Jim-]

Oh well, all that prep and no joy!

SVS has some fabulous deals on their Subwoofers but nothing on the White Ultra bookshelf speakers on Black Friday.

Maybe Cyber Monday...

 

[-Jim-]

Another thing. I just checked the viewing distance from the TV and for a 1080P 55 inch LED LCD, the consensus is between 7-11 feet from the screen. Most want you closer to 7 feet for Movies. The sketch I made is obviously not to scale, but this moves the seating position forward towards the screen about even with the beginning of the Door opening if I use 9 feet for reference. Using that placement the left rear surround speaker is too much to the rear and needs to move to the other 18 inch wall in the window box. (That's where I used to have it before the Reno!)

I am going to use 9 feet for the seating position, so it defines the left forward Atmos speaker location. (The Left Front defines it as 24.5 inches away from the outside wall.) So splitting the difference from the fronts of the Left & Right Front speakers I arrive at 69 inches from the TV wall. Thankfully it in the middle of the Floor Joists for the room above. For the right forward Atmos speaker it will be 36 inches away from the inside wall in line with a pot light that is also being installed.

I just finished wiring these two locations. Now I need to nail down the rears.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hey Jim. Nice progress.
#1, can you do a bigger display to keep the seating distance?
#2 I believe Dolby recommends staying within the angles more than splitting the distance. Even if your room is 50’ long, you’ll still keep your atmos speakers at the 45-55 degree mark. I think I’m your case, the rear atmos speakers should move forward towards the LP. Or, since your wife wants them higher(too high to meet the 1.25 height ratio of the fronts and a minimum of 3’ between the surrounds and atmos speakers), 5.1.4 might be better. That’s definitely better than 7.1.2. Or a compromised 7.1.4.
That’s all’s I got.

 

[-Jim-]

THanks for the post William.

#1, can you do a bigger display to keep the seating distance?

Please remember, you are talking to a guy who's got 3 (yes that's three) 55 Inch LED LCD TVS in the house already (one is 3D ) and a 42 inch LED LCD in the Master Bedroom. I think its instant suicide if I ask for a 70" or so right now.

I've got a deal with the misses that when one of them dies (screen wise -sound doesn't count as I pipe them all through HT set-ups except the bedroom.) We'll move to a larger 4K set.

#2 I believe Dolby recommends staying within the angles more than splitting the distance. Even if your room is 50’ long, you’ll still keep your atmos speakers at the 45-55 degree mark. I think I’m your case, the rear atmos speakers should move forward towards the LP. Or, since your wife wants them higher(too high to meet the 1.25 height ratio of the fronts and a minimum of 3’ between the surrounds and atmos speakers), 5.1.4 might be better. That’s definitely better than 7.1.2. Or a compromised 7.1.4.

I'm just about to pull the cables for the rear Atmos Speakers, so your comments are timely. However, now I'm second guessing myself if I'll ever get an 11 channel receiver to drive this setup. I was going to pull the rear Atmos speakers forward (towards where they'd be in a 5.1.4 setup) but I'll check the angles before I start drilling these last 2 cables.

Sorry if I don't fully understand the last part in Bold. The Atmos speakers are already being wired in the Ceiling, so I can't get them much higher. If you mean the rear surrounds are too high (too many speaker names) I am going to push for hanging them at about 51 inches, the Left Surround against the 18 inch window box wall, and the Right Surround against the 40 inch wall beyond the door swing. (I figure they are out of traffic there too.) Once I check the angles (thanks again) I'll see if the Surrounds are too close to the rear Atmos Speakers.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

THanks for the post William.

#1, can you do a bigger display to keep the seating distance?

Please remember, you are talking to a guy who's got 3 (yes that's three) 55 Inch LED LCD TVS in the house already (one is 3D ) and a 42 inch LED LCD in the Master Bedroom. I think its instant suicide if I ask for a 70" or so right now.

I've got a deal with the misses that when one of them dies (screen wise -sound doesn't count as I pipe them all through HT set-ups except the bedroom.) We'll move to a larger 4K set.

#2 I believe Dolby recommends staying within the angles more than splitting the distance. Even if your room is 50’ long, you’ll still keep your atmos speakers at the 45-55 degree mark. I think I’m your case, the rear atmos speakers should move forward towards the LP. Or, since your wife wants them higher(too high to meet the 1.25 height ratio of the fronts and a minimum of 3’ between the surrounds and atmos speakers), 5.1.4 might be better. That’s definitely better than 7.1.2. Or a compromised 7.1.4.

I'm just about to pull the cables for the rear Atmos Speakers, so your comments are timely. However, now I'm second guessing myself if I'll ever get an 11 channel receiver to drive this setup. I was going to pull the rear Atmos speakers forward (towards where they'd be in a 5.1.4 setup) but I'll check the angles before I start drilling these last 2 cables.

Sorry if I don't fully understand the last part in Bold. The Atmos speakers are already being wired in the Ceiling, so I can't get them much higher. If you mean the rear surrounds are too high (too many speaker names) I am going to push for hanging them at about 51 inches, the Left Surround against the 18 inch window box wall, and the Right Surround against the 40 inch wall beyond the door swing. (I figure they are out of traffic there too.) Once I check the angles (thanks again) I'll see if the Surrounds are too close to the rear Atmos Speakers.

Well Jim, I think for the rear surrounds, were talking about the same thing. Yes, at first I was thinking above the 72” mark would be a waste, since they would be too close the the rear atmos speakers. Then you posted the 50” speaker height recommendation. I believe that’s from where they say the surround speakers shouldn’t be more than 1.25 times main speakers height(fairly typical, 40”x1.25=50”)
51” should be great. My surround speakers tweeters are now at 55”(about 1.4x H1)in preparation for atmos. I hope you can go with the 51” mount.
Ok display. I can see why you would be reticent to push for a bigger one. I just figured it would be a lot easier to do that than move seats and speakers. As far as receivers, what are you looking at? You may end up with an external amp for a couple channels? Maybe I’ll read the thread again. Lol

 

[-Jim-]

I finished the wiring today except for the mounting brackets. I should have posted earlier, but the TV is on the west wall in the Games Room. Sorry (In the Family room, that TV is on the south wall.)

I moved both surrounds forward near their original positions in the Games Room before we started the Reno. The Left one is on the south 18 inch wall in the window box but will face near flush to the main part of the wall after mounting. The Right surround is going to hang in the middle of the 22 inch (north) wall. The cables come out of the wall with the middle of the box at 50 inches for both.

By moving the surround as far forward as possible I was able to draw a 45° line from the sweet spot in both directions for the rear Atmos pair. They are more than 44 inches from the Rear Surrounds and about 60 inches from the Left & Right Surrounds. Both of these Atmos are ~24 inches in from their respective outer wall in line with their corresponding Rear Surrounds.

As far as Receivers go, in recent years I've gotten an affinity for Denon. I know there are fewer and fewer companies, and most don't resemble the companies of old. Denon is just a brand, like Marantz (who also used to be great) are now both owned by Sound United LLC. I suspect they don't own their own factories anymore.

Two of my 3 receivers are Denon (the other is a very decent Sony). In my youth I used to buy the top of the line every time (buying features and power I'd never use /need => and go broke doing so ) but as I've matured I've been purpose buying for the application. I'm not going to drive these into oblivion, so I'd be happy with a single AVR-X6300H if I go for the full 11 speakers all the time. But we'll see how much is in the old bank account after the Reno.

The Framers are in tomorrow I'm told to install the Engineered Beam, pull out the old Fireplace, and finish a bit more framing here and there. I don't see any way we'll have the main floor back in time for Christmas.

 

[-Jim-]

The Framers came in and installed the Beam. (And that was it for the week!) Today was the Plumbing inspection. Tomorrow the Framers are supposed to be back with the Electrician to finish up. Then the Gas, Electrical, and Building inspections can occur.

I got all my stuff in from Black Friday sales so I put in the mounting brackets for the speaker wire boxes. And I cut the holes for the surrounds for the Family Room. Boy those holes seems big. I tested out all the speakers and they all work fine.

I won't get much done now as the Misses & I are going on a Cruise of the Mexican Riviera (Think northern West Coast - Cabo, Puerto Vallarta, and Mazatlán) on Friday for a week plus one day to fly to LA.

I'm hoping they get the Drywall up while we are gone. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[-Jim-]

Lots of activity in the last few days. Inspectors for Plumbing and Gas did their thing then the Framers came in and finished up the ceiling in the former Dining Room - now part of the kitchen. All the floors have been filled in and some of the electrical done. The electricians are due back tomorrow to finish up and get ready for Inspection, as are the Framers. After those get a green light, it'll be re-insulation and vapour barriers => and then their inspection. That will allow them to Drywall, which is a major payment milestone.

I'm hoping that will all occur when we are on vacation. I can't wait to get on the plane and fly out of here.