Paradigm Persona 5F Tower Loudspeaker Review

Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Yeah, I think you underestimate the usage in a semiconductor plant. We're talking thousands of gallons per year here.
Don't semiconductor plants have elaborate HEPA filtration systems that create clean air down to the class 10 level? Wouldn't that help minimize toxic dust particle contamination?

In biomedical manufacturing, I've seen class 100 rooms, needed for sterile conditions, but never class 10 particle control.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I think this thread has lost perspective. I work on cars regularly, and the fact that my tweeters are Be doesn't even register on my risk scale. Asbestos in brake pads is probably my primary worry (you should always wear a mask while working on brakes), though used motor oil, gasoline, mineral spirits, mercury in fluorescent lights and various switches and thermostats, acid in batteries, non-silicone brake fluid, and epoxy this or that worry me a lot more. As for manufacturing, I've got to agree with SB, chip fabrication and circuit board assembly require chemicals and quantities that make Be tweeter production look like a prototype shop in a cottage industry.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
As for ethical concerns about Beryllium, I can understand that. The company that produces the Be diaphragms for Paradigm is Materion. Materion has at least paid lip service to safe procedures in processing beryllium. I can only say I would hope they would adhere to safe practices. I have worked in a few different plants, many of which have used hazardous materials. Those that I have seen who work in lithography deal with some very nasty things, and lithography is a part of nearly every manufactured product that we all use. The MSDS folders on some of the lithography chemicals are as lengthy as Tolstoy novels.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm waiting for someone to review/compare any of the Paradigm Personas to the GE Triton Reference. I can't be the only one curious about this.

Thanks!
Who else is curious? :D

You mean how the GE and the $10K/pr Paradigm 3F towers have a spike in the treble 10-12kHz?

The GE has a +4dB bump, while the Paradigm has a +7dB bump! :eek:

I think the GE looks much better in this area.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/paradigm-persona-3f-speaker-system-review-test-bench

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/goldenear-technology-triton-reference-loudspeaker-review-test-bench

We'll have to wait to see if S&V or Stereophile measures the 5F. If it measures like the 3F and has a +7dB spike in the treble around 10-12kHz, that's not good.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
What I find interesting is that since Paradigm built their new anechoic chamber, their newly released speakers (Prestige and Persona) have not measured anywhere near flat according to measurements from the NRC, Stereophile, and Sound & Vision. But according to Paradigm's measurements, they're much better. So who is right?

Given how closely Stereophile's measurements are to the NRC measurements, despite being very different techniques, I tend to think they are the more accurate measurements.
Did you also notice the +7dB spike around 10-12kHz on the Paradigm 3F on S&V?

Going back to the S&V measurement of the $10K/pr Paradigm 3F, the listening window 200Hz-10kHz was almost +5dB/-2dB, and the F3 was 49Hz.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Don't semiconductor plants have elaborate air HEPA air filtration systems that create clean air down to the class 10 level? Wouldn't that help minimize toxic dust particle contamination?

In biomedical manufacturing, I've seen class 100 rooms, needed for sterile conditions, but never class 10 particle control.
Oh yes, even down to Class 1 is possible. These are the old standards for C/R classes though, now they are "ISO 3" for example.

Doesn't mean that you can't/won't get leaks from piping, etc.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Never trust the company. They are biased. 3rd party is always right. ;)

Did you also notice the +7dB spike around 10-12kHz on the Paradigm 3F on S&V?

I bet Paradigm's own measurements look nothing like that, as you pointed out.
Since I wasn't able to take these speakers outside, I did a ton of different close-mic testing, and 1m windowed testing at different heights and different reference axis. I do see that peak that S&V shows but only at certain heights on the speaker's axis. In other words, some measurements can show that and others do not. Both my measurements and S&V's measurements are much too close to a tower speaker like that to get the full story, both our measurement methods have serious shortcomings for a speaker like this. A speaker like this needs at least a 2 m distance to properly see how the driver's integrate, and a greater distance would be better, and then there is the matter of reference axis and mic height that it is measured.

In this case, I would trust the measurements Paradigm has provided. Their methods are far superior than what I employed in this particular review and will be much better than S&V's as well. I originally asked Paradigm to send their measurements as a reference point to see if I could achieve similar results through close mic testing alone. After consulting with Dr. Floyd Toole on the degree that I could accurately measure a speaker like this in such limited conditions, I understood that I would not be able to fairly capture everything this loudspeaker is doing. I then asked Paradigm if they would allow us to publish their own measurements since my own abilities were hampered here. It took some doing, and I didn't expect them to allow us to publish that response chart, but they agreed. That chart wasn't meant for public consumption, and Paradigm has very graciously allowed us to publish it. It is not BS, it is real.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Since I wasn't able to take these speakers outside, I did a ton of different close-mic testing, and 1m windowed testing at different heights and different reference axis. I do see that peak that S&V shows but only at certain heights on the speaker's axis. In other words, some measurements can show that and others do not. Both my measurements and S&V's measurements are much too close to a tower speaker like that to get the full story, both our measurement methods have serious shortcomings for a speaker like this. A speaker like this needs at least a 2 m distance to properly see how the driver's integrate, and a greater distance would be better, and then there is the matter of reference axis and mic height that it is measured.

In this case, I would trust the measurements Paradigm has provided. Their methods are far superior than what I employed in this particular review and will be much better than S&V's as well. I originally asked Paradigm to send their measurements as a reference point to see if I could achieve similar results through close mic testing alone. After consulting with Dr. Floyd Toole on the degree that I could accurately measure a speaker like this in such limited conditions, I understood that I would not be able to fairly capture everything this loudspeaker is doing. I then asked Paradigm if they would allow us to publish their own measurements since my own abilities were hampered here. It took some doing, and I didn't expect them to allow us to publish that response chart, but they agreed. That chart wasn't meant for public consumption, and Paradigm has very graciously allowed us to publish it. It is not BS, it is real.
I see. So it all depends on the method. Some speakers may benefit from certain methods, while others may look much worse.

This reminds me a few years ago when a friend of mine asked a KEF engineer if he could get a copy of the actual measurements of the KEF Q900 and R900. The engineer reluctantly emailed him the copies and asked him not to share it to the public. I saw the measurements. And we both agreed that the KEF measurements looked even better than the Stereophile and S&V measurements.

Did you notice any traces of "brightness" (from the treble peaks at certain heights)?

The GE Triton and Triton Ref also had the treble peaks, but much less (4dB vs 7dB) on S&V. I wonder if this is also due to certain height measurements? That's why owners say the speakers don't sound bright at all.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I think this thread has lost perspective.

As for manufacturing, I've got to agree with SB, chip fabrication and circuit board assembly require chemicals and quantities that make Be tweeter production look like a prototype shop in a cottage industry.
Agreed. But chip fabrication is a much larger business than Be diaphragms, with a much larger budget, and much more to loose if they are sloppy about manufacturing risks.

To be fair, when magnesium alloy speaker diaphragms were introduced, I believe there was also a bit of "but magnesium can burn furiously & its dust can explode" criticism. It never materialized into a genuine hazard that the manufacturer couldn't deal with.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Regarding the bass, which received very high scores, is the F3 around 50Hz on the Paradigm FR graph?
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Agreed. But chip fabrication is a much larger business than Be diaphragms, with a much larger budget, and much more to loose if they are sloppy about manufacturing risks.

To be fair, when magnesium alloy speaker diaphragms were introduced, I believe there was also a bit of "but magnesium can burn furiously & its dust can explode" criticism. It never materialized into a genuine hazard that the manufacturer couldn't deal with.
I was also thinking about, how many Be tweeters are in the world today? Tens of thousands? I'm probably being generous.

I read some stuff about the Seas Excel midrange drivers that use magnesium. I distinctly remember thinking that if Ferrari can use magnesium wheels, which enclose brakes that can get literally red hot, I wasn't going to worry about speaker cones burning. (I was considering Linkwitz Orions at the time, and they used the Seas midrange driver.)
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I was also thinking about, how many Be tweeters are in the world today? Tens of thousands? I'm probably being generous.

I read some stuff about the Seas Excel midrange drivers that use magnesium. I distinctly remember thinking that if Ferrari can use magnesium wheels, which enclose brakes that can get literally red hot, I wasn't going to worry about speaker cones burning. (I was considering Linkwitz Orions at the time, and they used the Seas midrange driver.)
Yup, that LiPo battery in your phone in your pocket is likely a bigger risk (statistically speaking).

Mountain bike forks often have magnesium stanchions.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Regarding the bass, which received very high scores, is the F3 around 50Hz on the Paradigm FR graph?
It looks like it, but I don't know how Paradigm deals with bass measurements. Harman uses a correction scheme for anechoic measurements based on groundplane measurements. I think the port contribution is probably missing a bit in the Paradigm measurements. My own measurement there does not close mic the port, I only go down to the bass driver, and mine is similar to Paradigm's f3, and I think both sets are not catching the full extent of the port output. You can see the port is tuned to about 25 Hz on the impedance graph.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Seems way too expensive ..
I would take these in a heartbeat and definately choose these over anything Wilson Audio produces, especially their Watt Puppies at a cool 100K and a frequency response curve that looks like the surface of the moon. Compared to the Wilson's, these are a bargain.
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Since I wasn't able to take these speakers outside, I did a ton of different close-mic testing, and 1m windowed testing at different heights and different reference axis. I do see that peak that S&V shows but only at certain heights on the speaker's axis. In other words, some measurements can show that and others do not. Both my measurements and S&V's measurements are much too close to a tower speaker like that to get the full story, both our measurement methods have serious shortcomings for a speaker like this. A speaker like this needs at least a 2 m distance to properly see how the driver's integrate, and a greater distance would be better, and then there is the matter of reference axis and mic height that it is measured.

In this case, I would trust the measurements Paradigm has provided. Their methods are far superior than what I employed in this particular review and will be much better than S&V's as well. I originally asked Paradigm to send their measurements as a reference point to see if I could achieve similar results through close mic testing alone. After consulting with Dr. Floyd Toole on the degree that I could accurately measure a speaker like this in such limited conditions, I understood that I would not be able to fairly capture everything this loudspeaker is doing. I then asked Paradigm if they would allow us to publish their own measurements since my own abilities were hampered here. It took some doing, and I didn't expect them to allow us to publish that response chart, but they agreed. That chart wasn't meant for public consumption, and Paradigm has very graciously allowed us to publish it. It is not BS, it is real.
Are you saying that a speaker of this size requires a greater distance between driver and mike placement to capture what is going on? If so, makes sense to me. The analogy Im drawing on is trying to listen to these speakers in a small room.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Are you saying that a speaker of this size requires a greater distance between driver and mike placement to capture what is going on? If so, makes sense to me. The analogy Im drawing on is trying to listen to these speakers in a small room.
Yes, for a speaker like this you need at least 2 meters or further.
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
I have auditioned these speakers and the 9H (their top of the line and well past my budget) I thought they sounded incredible with the exception of their bookshelves the Persona B, for that price I have heard many speakers that sounded better.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I can't blame any company for using Beryllium and selling ultra expensive speakers. They are just joining the party.

Harman have their $60K speakers and Be speakers.

RBH have their $50K speakers and Be speakers.

Focal have their $200K speakers and Be speakers.

KEF have their $200K speakers that don't have Be or Diamond. The Muon has Li-Mg-Al tweeters. I'm kind of surprised KEF never made any speakers with Be.

Let's see if PSB gets big enough to make $20K-$30K speakers with Be drivers.

Join the party! :D
 
I

ichigo

Full Audioholic
I have auditioned these speakers and the 9H (their top of the line and well past my budget) I thought they sounded incredible with the exception of their bookshelves the Persona B, for that price I have heard many speakers that sounded better.
Yep, and after the recent soundstage review it's pretty obvious where the problems with the Persona B lies:

1) Basically no bass below 80Hz (a bit of a problem for a gigantic 31lb bookshelf speaker that makes the Dynaudio C1--the bookshelf with probably the best bass--look tiny)
2) Scooped vocal range from 100-500Hz leaves you wanting to keep raising the volume
3) Treble 6-7db peak from 6.5KHz to 10KHz (which makes you wanting to keep lowering the volume).

It's a speaker that needs serious EQ to compete with the bookshelves in it's price range. Yes, it has beryllium drivers with amazingly low distortion. But compared to the Signature series, they basically mailed it in with their bookshelf speaker in terms of tuning the tonal balance.

Paradigm Signature S1



Paradigm Persona B

 

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