Marantz AV7703 vs AV7704?

[Pogre]

Op reminds me a little of eargiant.

You're over thinking it. Save a few bucks and get the 7703. Hell, get the X4300 and save a few more bucks. You'll get pretty much the same performance.

 

[PENG]

Op reminds me a little of eargiant.

You're over thinking it. Save a few bucks and get the 7703. Hell, get the X4300 and save a few more bucks. You'll get pretty much the same performance.

Perhaps in some ways, but OP is open minded in not discounting the SQ offered by AVRs. The other fellow seems 100% in one camp.

 

[Pogre]

Perhaps in some ways, but OP is open minded in not discounting the SQ offered by AVRs. The other fellow seems 100% in one camp.

Point taken.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Some of us are quite open-minded (the ones who have owned everything under the sun ), while some fellas feel they must justify that what they bought must be the best.

Now there is nothing wrong with preferring one type of gear over another. It's okay to prefer pre-pro over AVR or consumer amps over pro amps. There's nothing wrong with wanting an external DAC or a $3,000 100WPC stereo amp.

So there is nothing wrong with wanting the AV7703, instead of the X4300, even if it would save $700 and even though they sound equally great.

 

[aceinc]

OP here, I'm not opposed to saving money. I have a lot of quality gear I bought on Craigslist, pawn shops and garage sales. The only reason my main system electronics was bought new, is finding the latest technology for HT, preowned, is difficult at best.

If I go the 7703 route, the amps I mentioned above for the height channels were purchased used.

So I suppose the concept of trying out the AVR X4300H from Best Buy in 7.2 mode and A/B comparing it to my Emotiva XMC-1 for SQ and EQ seems like an approach to try. I will chat up the Magnolia folks the next time I'm in BB.

If it sounds at least as good as what I have I can reasonably postulate that adding the height channels would be a good addition to the system. Should it not sound as good or correct the room as well as the XMC-1, can I assume that I would not be happy with the 7703?

 

[PENG]

OP here, I'm not opposed to saving money. I have a lot of quality gear I bought on Craigslist, pawn shops and garage sales. The only reason my main system electronics was bought new, is finding the latest technology for HT, preowned, is difficult at best.

If I go the 7703 route, the amps I mentioned above for the height channels were purchased used.

So I suppose the concept of trying out the AVR X4300H from Best Buy in 7.2 mode and A/B comparing it to my Emotiva XMC-1 for SQ and EQ seems like an approach to try. I will chat up the Magnolia folks the next time I'm in BB.

If it sounds at least as good as what I have I can reasonably postulate that adding the height channels would be a good addition to the system. Should it not sound as good or correct the room as well as the XMC-1, can I assume that I would not be happy with the 7703?

You know full well the XMC-1 has better audio specs (aside from features) than the AV7704 and the AVR-X4300H so if you are to do a comparison listening between any of the two you will likely be affected by the Placebo effect. We are human after all, so naturally that is going to happen. If you really want to be sure, try to find ways to remove as much bias as possible, say at least do some volume matched single blind tests. Or jump to the AV8802A that should be on fire sale soon.

As ADTG mentioned in post#44, some of us have owned, and still own high price separate components. After the initial excitement, Placebo eventually faded into the background, and we began to enjoy our own AVRs again for the convenience, knowing that we still have those more expensive components sitting there waiting for us to go back to anytime. I guess you also have the option to keep the XMC-1 for two channel music only. I think even some die hard audiophiles may find it harder to convince themselves high end separates sound better with movies too.

 

[aceinc]

You know full well the XMC-1 has better audio specs (aside from features) than the AV7704 and the AVR-X4300H so if you are to do a comparison listening between any of the two you will likely be affected by the Placebo effect. We are human after all, so naturally that is going to happen. If you really want to be sure, try to find ways to remove as much bias as possible, say at least do some volume matched single blind tests. Or jump to the AV8802A that should be on fire sale soon.

As ADTG mentioned in post#44, some of us have owned, and still own high price separate components. After the initial excitement, Placebo eventually faded into the background, and we began to enjoy our own AVRs again for the convenience, knowing that we still have those more expensive components sitting there waiting for us to go back to anytime. I guess you also have the option to keep the XMC-1 for two channel music only. I think even some die hard audiophiles may find it harder to convince themselves high end separates sound better with movies too.

Actually, I didn't/don't know that, as I had/have not compared the specs side by side.

I currently own "budget" separates, Emotiva. I have always focused on speakers as being the most important portion of my systems. My thought on the matter is that any reasonable quality amplifier will have less impact on the sound than speakers. A pre/pro in my thinking can have more impact than Amps and less than speakers if for no other reason than their signal is multiplied by the amps and garbage in is louder garbage out. The same is true for source devices as well.

I am also in the (heresy alert) expensive cables don't matter camp.

This may all be due to poor hearing, or I may just be a Philistine or audio Neanderthal.

I recently returned from RMAF, one thing I would really have liked was some blind A/B testing. Were I to win the lottery, and could open an audio store, I would have one room dedicated to blind A/B tests of my top quality products. You would walk in, sit down in front of a "scrim" with a light reflected from the listener side, and select A, B, C for whatever devices you were testing. You would mark down whatever you thought was best for each music piece you listened to. When done add it up, and then go find out what piece you liked best.

Of course before this occurred, technicians would set the various pieces to sound as best they could and normalize for spl.

Another thing I would do in my store is have certain hours dedicated to appointments, but other than those hours I would insist that all salespeople would treat each person from the teenager with piercings to the old fart with pants up to his armpits as the most important customer they have ever had. I would not tolerate audio snobbery. I have experienced it on a few occasions, and it really ticks me off.

Undoubtedly I would probably be broke in a year, but I would have fun.

 

[PENG]

Actually, I didn't/don't know that, as I had/have not compared the specs side by side.

I currently own "budget" separates, Emotiva. I have always focused on speakers as being the most important portion of my systems. My thought on the matter is that any reasonable quality amplifier will have less impact on the sound than speakers. A pre/pro in my thinking can have more impact than Amps and less than speakers if for no other reason than their signal is multiplied by the amps and garbage in is louder garbage out. The same is true for source devices as well.

I thought you own the XMC-1, $2499 list price?

As previously discussed, I am just saying that the XMC-1 has much better specs, but any of the units mentioned have specs that should bring you pass the point of diminishing (or nothing) return. That's why I mentioned Placebo. Think about all the electronic processing from the production of music/movie soundtracks, and the electronic gear used in the chain, before it gets to your own gear. Then you are still at the mercy of the interaction between your room and your speakers. That, logically should render the minute difference between your own electronic gear virtually irrelevant, once you get past the entry level products.

 

[aceinc]

Yes I own the XMC-1. I was able to purchase it for $1,499.00 because I previously owned the UMC-1. Owners of the UMC-1 were given a discount on the XMC-1, because of the trials & tribulations associated with that product. If I had paid $2,499 for the XMC-1 I believe the upgrades to 4k & Atmos would be free (or cheaper). Because I bought the XMC-1 at a discount as stated above, the cost to upgrade is ~$1,000. I do not think Emotiva is being unreasonable with this policy, but I need to see what else ~$1,000 would buy me.

I have not compared the specs of the XMC-1 with any of the other devices we have been discussing. I am happy with the SQ of the Emotiva. Additionally how does one compare on paper, DACs, software/firmware & the like between these devices?

 

[PENG]

Yes I own the XMC-1. I was able to purchase it for $1,499.00 because I previously owned the UMC-1. Owners of the UMC-1 were given a discount on the XMC-1, because of the trials & tribulations associated with that product. If I had paid $2,499 for the XMC-1 I believe the upgrades to 4k & Atmos would be free (or cheaper). Because I bought the XMC-1 at a discount as stated above, the cost to upgrade is ~$1,000. I do not think Emotiva is being unreasonable with this policy, but I need to see what else ~$1,000 would buy me.

I have not compared the specs of the XMC-1 with any of the other devices we have been discussing. I am happy with the SQ of the Emotiva. Additionally how does one compare on paper, DACs, software/firmware & the like between these devices?

The Denon can play dsd128 files, the XMC-1 dsd64. The specs of their DACs are otherwise comparable, the Denon has the AK4458 (32 bit) and the XMC-1 DSD1796 (24 bit). THD+N is about the same but the DSD1796 has better SN/Dynamic range, though that shouldn't make an audible difference. Also, that's just comparing the DAC chips, not the overall implementation.

http://www.akm.com/akm/en/file/datasheet/AK4458VN.pdf

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dsd1796.pdf

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Additionally how does one compare on paper, DACs, software/firmware & the like between these devices?

One just needs to realize that all these specs are inaudible to the human ear.

 

[PENG]

One just needs to realize that all these specs are inaudible to the human ear.

Agree, but together with their price tags, they amplify the Placebo effect to the nth degree. I was definitely affected by that in the past, probably still do but to a lesser degree now for sure.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Agree, but together with their price tags, they amplify the Placebo effect to the nth degree. I was definitely affected by that in the past, probably still do but to a lesser degree now for sure.

I still want to see all those measurements and specs for sure.

I know S&V is correct when they sometimes get lazy and don’t show us the measurements and say things like “all measurements are within normal limits”.

But I still want to see all those numbers anyway, even if they are all within normal limits and inaudible.

 

[aceinc]

Well I almost have a new processor in hand. I won't go into the details until it is in my hot little hands. Before the weekend, I am told.

For the moment, I will say that it is a pre/pro with Audyssey, and I will initially be comparing it to my XMC-1 in 7.2 mode to see if I can hear any SQ difference.

Here is a question that I do not know the answer to, and perhaps someone could enlighten me. If my amplifiers have both RCA and XLR, can I hook RCA to one pre/pro and XLR to the other for testing? I would only power one pre/pro at a time.

My RCA connectors are decent, non name brand. I would probably get inexpensive XLRs from Parts express. So I expect the introduction of balanced vs unbalanced should not be an issue. If I hear a big difference I will swap the RCAs for the XLRs to eliminate the variable.

 

[lovinthehd]

Tease.

Couldn't tell you on the dual pre/xlr hookup, altho I'm curious what the risk would be if both prepros were on at the same time....

In your comparo how are you going to do the same source setup? Level matching? I suppose without quick switching the same source wouldn't be any more an issue....

 

[aceinc]

My source will probably be my Blu-Ray player. I use HDMI for that, so it would be a single wire move.

However, I am buying an HDMI switch for one of my clients (computer related), I may be able to hijack it for a few days.

 

[PENG]

Here is a question that I do not know the answer to, and perhaps someone could enlighten me. If my amplifiers have both RCA and XLR, can I hook RCA to one pre/pro and XLR to the other for testing? I would only power one pre/pro at a time.

I have tried that on my Bryston and Parasound Halo amp and found that the Byrston's two sets of inputs are isolated from each other but the Parasound is not, but if you are careful, it should do no harm. Just realize that if your amp has an input selector, you have to flip the switch every time you switch between RCA and XLR otherwise you won't be volume matched when doing your AB comparison.

Also, congrats to your prepro purchase, assuming i guess right that it is a 7703, 7704 or even the recommended equivalent X4300H.

 

[aceinc]

Peng, yes it is a Marantz AV7704. The sordid tale;

About a month ago I stopped in one of the local Audio/Home Theater/Car Audio places in my neck of the woods (about 30 miles from my home). I was in the area and had just fed my wife a delightful lunch, so she was sated and acquiesced.

Whilst there I noticed a "Clearance" Marantz AV7702MK2. They wanted ~$1,400.00 for it. I mentioned to the sales person (incorrectly I discovered later) that the AV7703 was available for $1,299 online. He told his manager, the manager pointed out to the salesperson they were having a sale, and they could give me the AV7703 brand new for $1,270. I verified how long the sale was for and they said a week. So we left, I did the research and discovered the online AV7703 I that was thinking about for $1,299 was used, not new. The best price new was $1,499. That evening over dinner my wife & I discussed it, and we decided to pull the trigger.

Next day I called them up, told them I wanted the unit, and assuming it was in stock I drove down with credit card in hand. They took my money then told me they would let me know the next week when it would be in stock. Disappointed I left, and waited. After a week I called and they said they would let me know when they would have it the next week. A week later they said they would have it the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. The Saturday after Thanksgiving they said I would have it no later than yesterday.

I got a call yesterday, and they were all apologetic, and said "...they couldn't get the AV7703. But would I take an AV7704?" I was about to get all indignant, because I knew the online price for the AV7704 is $2,199. But before I could say anything, he continued "for $106 more and I could have it tomorrow(today)." After a bit of hesitation (to not seem too anxious mainly) I said sure.

Picked it up this evening, brand new in an unopened box for $1,456.44 after tax. So I guess I got a good deal.

Testing will probably wait until Sunday.

 

[PENG]

Peng, yes it is a Marantz AV7704. The sordid tale;

About a month ago I stopped in one of the local Audio/Home Theater/Car Audio places in my neck of the woods (about 30 miles from my home). I was in the area and had just fed my wife a delightful lunch, so she was sated and acquiesced.

Whilst there I noticed a "Clearance" Marantz AV7702MK2. They wanted ~$1,400.00 for it. I mentioned to the sales person (incorrectly I discovered later) that the AV7703 was available for $1,299 online. He told his manager, the manager pointed out to the salesperson they were having a sale, and they could give me the AV7703 brand new for $1,270. I verified how long the sale was for and they said a week. So we left, I did the research and discovered the online AV7703 I that was thinking about for $1,299 was used, not new. The best price new was $1,499. That evening over dinner my wife & I discussed it, and we decided to pull the trigger.

Next day I called them up, told them I wanted the unit, and assuming it was in stock I drove down with credit card in hand. They took my money then told me they would let me know the next week when it would be in stock. Disappointed I left, and waited. After a week I called and they said they would let me know when they would have it the next week. A week later they said they would have it the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. The Saturday after Thanksgiving they said I would have it no later than yesterday.

I got a call yesterday, and they were all apologetic, and said "...they couldn't get the AV7703. But would I take an AV7704?" I was about to get all indignant, because I knew the online price for the AV7704 is $2,199. But before I could say anything, he continued "for $106 more and I could have it tomorrow(today)." After a bit of hesitation (to not seem too anxious mainly) I said sure.

Picked it up this evening, brand new in an unopened box for $1,456.44 after tax. So I guess I got a good deal.

Testing will probably wait until Sunday.

Wow, congratulations! That's a great price even before tax let alone after !!

 

[davidahn]

AceInc, I'm jealous of your deal. How do you like your AV7704? Do you think they'll let me have one for your price? Haha

I'll probably end up with a refurb AV7703, can't justify the $2199 vs $1199 for the refurb AV7703.

My reason for pre-pro vs AVR is I bought powered studio monitors for my front L, C, and R (Adam Audio A8X's) and I have a very slight hum with even heavy dual shielded RCA cables, so I'd like to go balanced XLR.