What are my rights here in Ontario canada ?

Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
@Johnny2Bad

"Q for you: What is the nature of the repairs done? Both channels or just one?"

I was not informed , i was just told that im being treated very fairly , by the best amp guy in the business , and that is what the cost is
Well. hopefully you can resolve this particular issue, but going forward you should exhibit some "consumer smarts". They apply regardless of the item in question; your car, HiFi gear, your home vacuum, home renovations, whatever.

Always ask for an estimate before any work proceeds.

Always indicate that no work should proceed without contacting you first and giving your go-ahead.

Always insist on a written warranty, a written estimate, and if you are asked to sign something, write in ink in your handwriting the condition that you must approve any further work in writing.

It's reasonable for a shop to charge a fee for diagnosis if you don't proceed with repair work. The cost should be specified by the shop in writing at the outset.

You should call this shop and ask for an itemized bill. If they are legit, they won't object to providing this to you. The Question I posed is important, find out the answer from him.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Be polite and business-like. There is no advantage to getting upset; it never changes things and often makes the situation worse. Contact him, apologize for losing your cool, and get the answers I suggested you find out. Tell him you need to decide on how to proceed, and will get back to him shortly once he provides the itemized bill for repair.

There is one or two Ontario boutique builders I am aware of with poor reputations. If you want, PM me with the details, and I might be able to offer my opinion on the dealer / builder in question.
 
M

Muzique Junkie

Junior Audioholic
@
Johnny2Bad

Thank you mate

I did nt lose my cool , i was very calm and said politely , i ve lost confidence in the product

He immediately went on the offensive

On another note , i just thought of this , concerning shipping , i have a text from him saying he will pay shipping ( a few hundred dollars with Insurance) .

He later recanted and said that he was mad i insulted his company etc , and was sick in bed and that was apparently sarcasm ,and he wont pay for shipping

The text was very clear , for a day or more i was so pleased he would do that to satisfy a customer . i said to someone else , see what a good guy , tho i never expected that he should do that

Thats ok that he did not pay shipping , i have always been lucky with other companies i suppose who paid shipping , but all i did was ask about shipping , i never suggested he pay it

I ve known him for a few years now since researching for good audiophile gear near by , now so many stories are making sense , things i did not want to believe , because he presented himself in a comrades manner , made me think we were on some level mates

FFS im naive

I will share the name once things have settled , please understand i need to be absolutely certain before i can do such a possibly damaging thing

If this somehow turns in his favour , he will have my full apologies that i ever went this far



 
M

Muzique Junkie

Junior Audioholic
There may even be a text where he offered me a full refund at that same time

I remember saying , i really love the sound of this amp and would hate to lose it

We have chatted alot over some time , even just buddy type chat

Ill have to search those asap

Thing is theres so many , and when i go to read them and a text/call comes in my smart fone knocks me back to end again and i have to restart LOL
 
M

Muzique Junkie

Junior Audioholic
In mean time can i please ask for any reputable dealers , preferred in Ont ( or canada )

who deal in Hegal (Im also open to other equally good amps of similar quality)

Im particularly interested in Hegel 300 , but its discontinued , yet very affordable on Ie canuck audio mart

Private sellers at that price point concern me tho

I cant picture sticking with this present amp as all confidence has expired , a good reputable dealer ,esp. in Hegel used gear would be pleasing

Im in need of 250W RMS or more And when i speak of Hegel , the quality im in for is obvious


Thanks
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
@highfigh

"If a speaker shorts, the current source is the amplifier"

Does that mean the speaker can send that back to amp , and fry the amp ?

Speakers are focus 340s

I dont want to mention an amp until im absolutely certain ,im feeling very certain ,but i will not besmirch a reputation until i ve covered all my bases

Then im unforgiving

So far i have confirmation from Dynaudio , im not sure what else i would need ?

Thanks mate
If you don't mention the amp, it's impossible for anyone to offer useful information in the event that they know of issues with certain brands and models.

As far as your actual legal rights, you would need to contact a lawyer or search 'Canadian Retail Law' or Canadian Consumer Rights'.

If I were you, I would make it abundantly clear to the seller that Dynaudio has blessed your speakers and you have no problems with the speaker wires. Before you go to them with this info, I would check the line voltage and make sure nothing could be causing the problem from voltage drop or peaks.

Current is an indication of electron flow rate, voltage is like electrical pressure- the analogy between water and electricity is used when teaching electricity. Water flow rate is current, water pressure is like Voltage. The relationship between some kind of resistance in either will affect flow rate and pressure.

This means that as a voltage source, the current in the speaker/amplifier interface will vary, based on the speakers' resistance at each frequency. Impedance is complex, so let's keep it simple- if the power is to remain constant when the resistance drops, the current must increase and this causes heat at the amplifier's output devices. Heat, specifically inadequate removal of heat, is the cause of failure. The speakers react to the voltage and current from the amplifier but if they aren't faulty, I would look at the amplifier as the problem, but I would also recommend making sure the sources are connected to the same electrical circuit and that they have no problems of their own. Connect one source, use the system and see if it shuts down. If not, move to the next source and repeat the observations- if one source causes the problem, find out why.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
@Johnny2Bad

I was not informed , i was just told that im being treated very fairly , by the best amp guy in the business , and that is what the cost is
Uh, no. That doesn't work as an effective way to communicate the nature of the work performed. He needs to get over himself. In the US, a clear explanation is required with each part listed, as well as its price.

An example of charging a lot for almost nothing; a well-known amplifier designer/manufacturer offered to make his solid state amplifiers sound more like a tube amp, for a fee (IIRC, it was around $300). It involved adding a 1.5 Ohm resistor in series with the output to the + speaker terminals, nothing more.

Have you contacted the manufacturer, to let them know how this dealer is treating you? What you're experiencing isn't good customer service- I'm sure they don't want customers to be treated this way.
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
@Johnny2Bad

"Q for you: What is the nature of the repairs done? Both channels or just one?"

I was not informed , i was just told that im being treated very fairly , by the best amp guy in the business , and that is what the cost is
The repair person should be willing to provide you an itemized invoice for all parts and labor, with associated costs.

If they can't/won't provide an invoice, that is shady as hell!

I think the idea of cutting out the dealer and contacting the manufacturer may be worth pursuing!

Finally, in the USA, once you become 100% certain that the dealer is trying to pull one over on you, this would be a case for small claims court. I'm not sure what would qualify in Canada.

I hate to say it, but one way out to cut your losses is to take the lesser amp, then perhaps sell it. That isn't a great option either, that's just a little better than a total loss.

But, I also agree, for $700, this ass-hat should have called you to authorize the repairs before just making the repairs and sending a bill.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Canada has robust consumer protection legislation in areas of Federal jurisdiction (advertising, consumer fraud), and each province has more robust legislation (the way the Canadian confederation is structured, the Provinces have power over the Federal Government in most areas of jurisdiction). Ontario in particular has excellent consumer protection law.

I don't know about his options re: Small Claims Court, as that is Provincial Jurisdiction and will vary. Ontario tends to be more expensive with regard to fees and the like than where I'm from, but by way of example here (I'm not in Ontario) Small Claims Court is anything under $5000 and costs almost nothing to file. Costs are awarded to the winner and armed with a Court Order, the consumer can garnishee Bank Accounts, Wages, and seize property to settle. You could also place a lien on real property (land, buildings, homes, or automobiles), including a lien on every property owned which won't be lifted until the judgment is settled (typically by sale of one or more properties by the owner). A property lien can be a detriment to sale so there is incentive to pay the judgment prior to listing.

A lien check is inexpensive ( here it's $20 province-wide, $50 Canada-wide) and almost no-one buys an automobile without one, and land titles are very easy to check* (The Provincial lien check will reveal if the auto was possibly ever registered in another province, it would show if there was continuous registration in one province, so you don't normally need a Canada-wide).

A garnishee order costs $10 (and like all costs to recover, becomes part of the judgement). Seizure would be performed by a provincial law enforcement (Sheriff) agent, you don't have to do it yourself. Seized property will be auctioned off by the Sheriff, and if the total does not settle the judgement, further action can be taken until said judgement is settled.

Regardless, there is no need to lawyer up, everything can be done by the consumer. The consumer protection legislation is designed to be lawyer-free, although you can certainly hire one if you want. Small claims court proceedings and satisfaction of judgements are designed to be lawyer free, on either side. The court proceedings are informal and no legal experience is expected or required (other courts do expect proper protocol and procedure).

His biggest problem is a lack of documentation, which he failed to ask for. None the less, the eMail about free shipping is legally binding, if he wants to pursue that. Don't delete that eMail or any other correspondence you may have in writing, text messages, etc. Even notes you make during a phone call or conversation in person can be admissible, if (and only if) you created and kept them during those conversations. It is inadvisable to create them after the fact, as the Judge will not look kindly on an attempt to fabricate evidence.

If either party fails to appear a judgement will be issued in favour of whomever does appear.

* Many provinces in Canada use the Torrens System (Google it if you want), whereby land titles are centrally registered, and any changes creates a single, new title, or if property is divided, new titles for each parcel, reflecting those changes. A lien would create a new indefeasible title, for example, or a sale, or clearing of a mortgage, etc. All previous titles are invalidated by a new title. When I bought my house the title search and new title cost me $250, and took about 45 minutes, while I waited at the Land Titles Office.
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
@Muzique Junkie
I think you got some good advice in post #29. That is really the last-ditch, tired of this BS, effort.

But, if someone was trying to stick it to me, I would have no problem taking them to small claims court.

In fact, if it comes to it, just the threat of small claims court may produce the resolution that you are seeking.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I can't believe, that in this day and age, that any amplifier is built that doesn't have proper protection in place to protect itself against faulty wiring. This has existing for ages now, and has been incorporated by all the top tier manufacturers to ensure that when you buy their $,$$$.00 amplifier that they don't get repairs to deal with because you crossed up some wiring on day one.

What an absolutely insane thing to tell a customer. If you got a dead short, I would ask first "You mean your amplifier doesn't handle a short in the wiring like every other manufacturer does?"

It's not a minor detail, it's of phenomenal importance.

Unfortunately, even if your speakers are fine, there are about 100 ways a pair of exposed wire ends and speaker terminals, and amplifier terminals can short out. Minimal contact at any point would do it with any piece of metal. But, I haven't seen a new amplifier in years which aren't protected from this.

Not to pull you off site, but this was an interesting hit on Google for checking for Bryston dealing with shorts in the connection, and a response from a reputable member saying that there is short protection with the amps, and others chiming in with other manufacturers. Seriously, this isn't acceptable IMO.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90327.0
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
In mean time can i please ask for any reputable dealers , preferred in Ont ( or canada )

who deal in Hegal (Im also open to other equally good amps of similar quality)

Im particularly interested in Hegel 300 , but its discontinued , yet very affordable on Ie canuck audio mart

Private sellers at that price point concern me tho

I cant picture sticking with this present amp as all confidence has expired , a good reputable dealer ,esp. in Hegel used gear would be pleasing

Im in need of 250W RMS or more And when i speak of Hegel , the quality im in for is obvious


Thanks
https://www.hegel.com/dealers/canada

I don't understand why you couldn't do this yourself. It's all there on the Hegel website.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
I can't believe, that in this day and age, that any amplifier is built that doesn't have proper protection in place to protect itself against faulty wiring. This has existing for ages now, and has been incorporated by all the top tier manufacturers to ensure that when you buy their $,$$$.00 amplifier that they don't get repairs to deal with because you crossed up some wiring on day one.

What an absolutely insane thing to tell a customer. If you got a dead short, I would ask first "You mean your amplifier doesn't handle a short in the wiring like every other manufacturer does?"

It's not a minor detail, it's of phenomenal importance.

Unfortunately, even if your speakers are fine, there are about 100 ways a pair of exposed wire ends and speaker terminals, and amplifier terminals can short out. Minimal contact at any point would do it with any piece of metal. But, I haven't seen a new amplifier in years which aren't protected from this.

Not to pull you off site, but this was an interesting hit on Google for checking for Bryston dealing with shorts in the connection, and a response from a reputable member saying that there is short protection with the amps, and others chiming in with other manufacturers. Seriously, this isn't acceptable IMO.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90327.0
There are many amplifiers that do not employ robust protection circuitry, as it is felt by some to impair sonic performance (relays must be placed between the power transistors and the speaker connection binding posts). Broadly speaking the more consumer-oriented the product, the greater likelihood it has some form of output protection. Many (probably most) DIY amplifiers do not employ any, but of course a DIYer is unlikely to short the outputs.

The more exotic, or "High End", or unconventional the circuit, the less likely that protection circuitry will be employed. Stuff sold at Best Buy will probably have protection circuitry as it reduces (obviously) warranty claims and the products are marketed to unsophisticated uses whom are not expected to have significant audio expertise.

Most amplifier protection circuits are designed to monitor output current, or temperature of the output devices, and to shut down or place in standby the amp if the limits are exceeded (such as by driving too low impedance speakers)*. Output protection relays age and contacts pit or degrade, so over time they may not offer the same protection as new.

However the biggest issue is that the consequence of output shorting is very fast acting, and in many cases the protection circuit cannot act fast enough to save the output devices.** Protection circuits can save you from amplifier damage under a wide variety of conditions but you cannot expect any output protection circuit to save you from a direct short.

The simple solution is to never adjust, connect, disconnect or otherwise fxxk with the speaker wiring while the amp is powered up. Shut it down, do whatever you want, check your work, then power it up.

If you want protection from short circuits of the output devices you can always look to the QUAD 33, QUAD 405, and similar "Current Dumping" amplifiers. The 33 (45 wpc RMS 8ohms) is "unconditionally stable" and will drive a direct short indefinitely without damage. The 405 is rated to survive a direct short for five minutes at full power (100w pc RMS 8ohms). Both amps were designed to safely drive QUAD's electrostatic loudspeakers.

When I was asked to spec and install systems in restaurants and bars for background music, I always used the 33 for the installation. With many rotating staff members and occasional ham-fisted renovators typically involved, you cannot insure a short will not be encountered. If a short was introduced the music would just stop, and a sticker on the system insured that they would call me. I never had an amplifier failure with that system, some still in operation 35 years later. Horses for courses.

But there are consequences to such a circuit topology, and although not considered "bad" amplifiers, they cannot compete sonically with the very best. They also require precise parts matching not normally found on less expensive power products. No longer manufactured by AMCL (UK) under new ownership after the death of Peter Walker.

* In order to obtain UL / CSA / TUV etc electrical safety certificates, amplifiers are required to operate without interruption into a specified load at specified power and distortion. Should the amplifier shut down during the test (protection circuit is activated) the manufacturer cannot rate the amplifier into the load and power that caused the protection mode to trigger. Thus you get amps rated for 8 and 6 ohm loads, but not 4, presumably because the amp shut down at full rated power into the 4 ohm load during certification.

** A relay appropriate for use to protect the output of an amplifier will have a reaction time of perhaps 0.5 ms. Mechanical relays could be ten times slower. A 20 KHz signal has a periodic time (swings through the crest of the sine wave twice, once for each + and - half-wave) of 0.05 mS. Thus the amplifier would produce full power into 20 KHz 20 times before the relay could trip. Any frequency above 1 KHz would allow at least one swing of the half-wave (ie reaching full power on the + power rail) before the relay could trip.

Use of relays may require snubbers (capacitors, resistors, diodes, etc) to become part of the output circuit. Thus there are those that prefer not to design with them employed at that location.
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I can't believe, that in this day and age, that any amplifier is built that doesn't have proper protection in place to protect itself against faulty wiring. This has existing for ages now, and has been incorporated by all the top tier manufacturers to ensure that when you buy their $,$$$.00 amplifier that they don't get repairs to deal with because you crossed up some wiring on day one.

What an absolutely insane thing to tell a customer. If you got a dead short, I would ask first "You mean your amplifier doesn't handle a short in the wiring like every other manufacturer does?"

It's not a minor detail, it's of phenomenal importance.

Unfortunately, even if your speakers are fine, there are about 100 ways a pair of exposed wire ends and speaker terminals, and amplifier terminals can short out. Minimal contact at any point would do it with any piece of metal. But, I haven't seen a new amplifier in years which aren't protected from this.

Not to pull you off site, but this was an interesting hit on Google for checking for Bryston dealing with shorts in the connection, and a response from a reputable member saying that there is short protection with the amps, and others chiming in with other manufacturers. Seriously, this isn't acceptable IMO.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=90327.0
I agree completely!

More audiphoolery beating out engineering!

But, I do admit, Johnny makes some valid points
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
There may even be a text where he offered me a full refund at that same time

I remember saying , i really love the sound of this amp and would hate to lose it

We have chatted alot over some time , even just buddy type chat

Ill have to search those asap

Thing is theres so many , and when i go to read them and a text/call comes in my smart fone knocks me back to end again and i have to restart LOL
If there is some way to backup your Phone's data to a computer, use it.

If you switch your phone to "Airplane Mode" you won't be interrupted with calls or texts while you search for relevant documentation. You could then copy and paste relevant texts to a document. However a full backup of the text conversations with him would be best, with relevant texts highlighted or referenced. Canadian Courts accept PDF files as legal format for evidence submissions. Any consumer protection arm of your province would also accept documentation in PDF format.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
You may want to ask Dynaudio and ask if perhaps that speaker is offering a large capacitive load for that brand of amp, be sure to tell Dyna what amp, and go into oscillation and self destruction. Some amp, specifically the Naim is very sensitive to capacitance from wire or speaker and has done just that, self destruction.
Just a thought.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
... , i was just told that im being treated very fairly , by the best amp guy in the business , and that is what the cost is
Well, since you amp is not a Bryston I doubt this statement or almost so. Bryston is up there, spoken with him in the past.
 
M

Muzique Junkie

Junior Audioholic
Im seriously considering the Hegel H360 , but the price difference between it and my returning amp is 2k Canadian dollars

To raise those funds will take more time than im willing to wait , without an amp , without music(Ya i have a TV etc...not the same . Music via tv is horrible) .

It was the DAC in the Hegel (300 and 360) that concerned me , and made me think i had to keep my Sim audio 280D-with mind to be satisfied , as the 280D will resolve to DSD 256

It seems my new infos reveal the H 300 and the 360 have the H 30 DAC and will resolve natively , no downsampling , DSD 128 . (Tho ill need a windows plug in) .

If thats true , DSD 128 satisfies me "fully and completely"(Yes a Hip/Gord reference RIP Gord)



So far is all my infos correct ?

If so i need to ask what could i ask/expect as a Canadian dollar figure for my 280D-with mind . About 1 year old ,obviously remote and all original box etc .

Thank you
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
280D what? A Diesel Mercedes? Some kind of Audio device? Be specific, please.

Personally I think you are jumping around without thinking things through. The starting point is to define your needs, then seek out something that satisfies those needs within your budget.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
You may want to ask Dynaudio and ask if perhaps that speaker is offering a large capacitive load for that brand of amp, be sure to tell Dyna what amp, and go into oscillation and self destruction. Some amp, specifically the Naim is very sensitive to capacitance from wire or speaker and has done just that, self destruction.
Just a thought.
None of the Dynaudio speakers offers a large capacitive load, AFAIK.

IMO, any manufacturer that takes an amp to market that can't handle a difficult load is doing their customers a disservice.
 

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