Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[Irvrobinson]

Porsche holds their retail value well for a high end car.

Tell that to someone getting a ~$42-45K trade-in offer on their $100k 2008 911 CS they've only driven about 30,000 miles, and the equivalent new 991 version is $125K. A Cayenne doesn't hold its value nearly that well. Of course, for shocking depreciation nothing quite beats a BMW 7-series.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Tell that to someone getting a ~$42-45K trade-in offer on their $100k 2008 911 CS they've only driven about 30,000 miles, and the equivalent new 991 version is $125K. A Cayenne doesn't hold its value nearly that well. Of course, for shocking depreciation nothing quite beats a BMW 7-series.

Buying used is very good, whether it's audio or automobile.

 

[dpattillo]

To quote the wise hip hop sage Macklemore
"I call that getting swindled and pimped
I call that getting tricked by a business"
LOL

I really want to get into hifi audio but its a minefield of hype and pseudoscience. Maybe traversing the minefield without getting blown up is part of the appeal. I just want great sound reproduction at a reasonable cost.

 

[fmw]

Patillo, you have no idea what a minefield it is. Years ago a couple of Korean guys sold some round wooden discs that audiophiles were supposed to place on top of their equipment. Each disk had an arrow so that the audiophile could orient it in the direction that produced the best sound. The discs received positive reviews in Stereophile magazine even though you and I and almost everyone else understands that putting little wood discs on top of your components doesn't affect the way they operate. So thousands of audiophiles bought these stupid things on the recommendation of some nincompoop audio reviewer at Stereophile. There are some basic things you need to consider in configuring an audio system but, basically, as long as you do that sensibly, the only place you need to spend money is on speakers and room acoustics. Everything else can be at the minimum required for the configuration. The industry, of course, will tell you otherwise. It's hard to ignore. I know. I was an audiophile for years.

 

[fmw]

Pseudo science is rampant in the industry as you know. One of my favorites is digital "jitter." The concept is that timing inconsistencies in the digital stream between something like a digital player and a preamplifier can alter the sound of the system. When we were doing our bias controlled tests we had a miserable time figuring out how to measure jitter. And, in fact, jitter does exist and can be measured. But, you guessed it, it has no bearing on the sound quality of the audio. That's because it occurs in the digital domain. Even though there can be timing inconsistencies, that doesn't matter to the data because it is fed into a "stack" and then taken from the other end as needed by the DAC (digital to analog converter.) In other words, the "holding pattern" in the stack eliminates all the jitter. But you should read the volumes written about it by the nincompoops.

 

[Grador]

Pseudo science is rampant in the industry as you know. One of my favorites is digital "jitter." The concept is that timing inconsistencies in the digital stream between something like a digital player and a preamplifier can alter the sound of the system. When we were doing our bias controlled tests we had a miserable time figuring out how to measure jitter. And, in fact, jitter does exist and can be measured. But, you guessed it, it has no bearing on the sound quality of the audio. That's because it occurs in the digital domain. Even though there can be timing inconsistencies, that doesn't matter to the data because it is fed into a "stack" and then taken from the other end as needed by the DAC (digital to analog converter.) In other words, the "holding pattern" in the stack eliminates all the jitter. But you should read the volumes written about it by the nincompoops.

Jitter internal of the DAC could be an issue though, as this would effect the even spacing of samples as they are being reproduced. That said, you've got to have some serious issues in your circuit designing for this to be an issue.

 

[dpattillo]

Little wooden discs! Sounds like an April Fool's joke, ROTFLMAO

I could see where jitter could be an issue in recording studios where time alignment of multiple tracks is an issue, but in stereo reproduction it's probably negligible to our ability to perceive it.

 

[fmw]

Jitter internal of the DAC could be an issue though, as this would effect the even spacing of samples as they are being reproduced. That said, you've got to have some serious issues in your circuit designing for this to be an issue.

But that isn't what the nincompoops teach. They are trying to sell CD players and DVD players with measurably low jitter. It has zero to do with the DAC which is normally in a dedicated component in audiophile systems. Even if the DAC chip produced jitter (actually it probably does produce a litte.) it would be inaudible. Sadly a $39 CD player from Walmart works just as well as a $3000 audiophile player. I've owned both.

 

[fmw]

Little wooden discs! Sounds like an April Fool's joke, ROTFLMAO

Not a joke. After all these years you can still buy them. Here's a review. http://***********/2012/09/shun-mook-audio-mpingo-discs/

and here's another review. Getting Shun-Mooked - Audiophile Review Your search engine will allow you to find the original Stereophile review. This is an industry that preys on people's minds because it has little to do with their ears. People will hear what they want to hear. Sow the right seed and they'll hear it every time.

 

[dpattillo]

I need some cash to fund my new audio addiction. I really need to come up with a product that is inexpensive to manufacture that I can sell at 1000x cost. I'll need to make some contacts with major HiFi magazine and website writers and reviewers and promise to advertise in their magazines for favorable reviews and maybe a little kick back on the side. I'll make my way to the trade shows and shake hands and smile at everyone I meet, after all appearing genuine and legitimate is the most important part of the game. Before long I won't be able to produce the stuff fast enough. When the naysayers confront me I'll have my best arguments ready and appeal to to their emotions, after all it's all subjective, what fun is it if you don't have faith? So here are a couple ideas I've come up with in the last few minutes, hopefully more to follow.

1. A canned aerosol product that you spray in the room before a listening session it ionizes the air so the sound waves travel to your ear accurately and fast. (It's really going to be canned air with a fancy label)

2. Premium ear wax cleaning solution that contains gold dust particles. My ear wax cleaner will be like no other on the market. It will not only remove your ear wax it will drastically improve the quality of your listening experience by coating your inner ear with fine particles of 24k gold dust. This will increase the conductivity of the sound waves through your ear canal and your now gold plated ear drum with react to the finest details of your music for a listening experience like no other.

So anyone want to help me bring these great products to market? I'm open to profit sharing

 

[fmw]

Pattillo, you're on your way.

 

[ski2xblack]

Is there any truth to the rumor that Emotiva bought Carver?

edit: seems so, it's in Emo's daily podcast. Whoodathunkit?

 

[Grador]

But that isn't what the nincompoops teach. They are trying to sell CD players and DVD players with measurably low jitter. It has zero to do with the DAC which is normally in a dedicated component in audiophile systems. Even if the DAC chip produced jitter (actually it probably does produce a litte.) it would be inaudible. Sadly a $39 CD player from Walmart works just as well as a $3000 audiophile player. I've owned both.

Yeah I have read a bit about jitter between devices, and it is hilarious incorrect. Jitter on the DAC could most certainly be audible though, I just have trouble imagining someone using a clock so inaccurate that it would be.

 

[RichB]

For the record, I think Lexus's sound different than Range Rovers.

Seriously,

Newer amps have very low standby power, which is nice.
According the Parasound, the newer A51's, Outlaw 7500, and ATI 3005 are all about 1 watt in standby.
I am not a fan of wasting power, but I wonder if this has sonic implications.
Do SS amps sound better when they warm up?

If there is a chance, I suppose they should all be left on for a while prior to any shootout.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Newer amps have very low standby power, which is nice.
According the Parasound, the newer A51's, Outlaw 7500, and ATI 3005 are all about 1 watt in standby.
I am not a fan of wasting power, but I wonder if this has sonic implications.
Do SS amps sound better when they warm up?

If there is a chance, I suppose they should all be left on for a while prior to any shootout.

- Rich

For the ATI amps, standby only exists for the 12v trigger, otherwise you might as well use the switch in the back. The active circuits are really unpowered, so standby is really "off".

Do solid state amps sound better when warmed up? I don't think so in any audible sense, but the difference is measurable. Distortion generally goes down by some amount as the amp warms up, and the same is true for most analog circuits as they thermally stabilize. I can't believe the difference is audible, so I just turn on the system and start listening, and I turn it off when I'm done. I figure my ears warm up far more than the circuits do, your ear-brain system warming up is obvious. I always start listening at lower levels, and gradually increase them as my ears or brain adjusts, or whatever happens.

 

[jinjuku]

Is there any truth to the rumor that Emotiva bought Carver?

edit: seems so, it's in Emo's daily podcast. Whoodathunkit?

Not a surprise since there was a Carver and Emo that were the same: Say it ain't so...Carver Digital is an Emotiva

This was at Polk Forums so you could imagine the egg on face attire

 

[RichB]

Bob Carver is an innovative amp designer and as good as he is, he is even better at selling his companies

Emo is a very aggressive and prolific company; This should be an interesting match up.
Maybe it will inspire a new round of amp wars.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Bob Carver is an innovative amp designer and as good as he is, he is even better at selling his companies

Emo is a very aggressive and prolific company; This should be an interesting match up.
Maybe it will inspire a new round of amp wars.

- Rich

Maybe they could change all their amps to look like Sunfire amps. And while they are at it, they could change their name to Sunfire too. Then they would sound better.

 

[chaluga]

How about a chair you sit in that loosens up your limbic system so you can feel the power of the amp better ?
Call it oxygen enriched rocket

 

[RichB]

How about a chair you sit in that loosens up your limbic system so you can feel the power of the amp better ?
Call it oxygen enriched rocket

It's been done: The ButtKicker

- Rich