SVS PB13-Ultra Subwoofer Review

S

syswei

Audiophyte
Possibly an error in the distortion graphs?

Looking at Josh Ricci's full measurements at data-bass.com (sorry I'm not allowed to post a link because I haven't reached 5 posts) for 15Hz mode, at 50Hz 3HD is about 5%, 2HD about 1.3%, and 4HD >.2%...the sum of these is 6.5%. But looking at the graph above, showing THD, we see only 5%. Even assuming that 5HD, 6HD etc are zero, shouldn't the THD graph show at least 6.5% at 50Hz?

Larger discrepancies can be seen at other points, for instance at 31.5Hz, 2HD+3HD+4HD = 12% on the lower graph, but on the THD graph we see only 8%.

Am I misunderstanding something, or is there something wrong with one or both graphs?
 
E

Ed Mullen

Manufacturer
Looking at Josh Ricci's full measurements at data-bass.com (sorry I'm not allowed to post a link because I haven't reached 5 posts) for 15Hz mode, at 50Hz 3HD is about 5%, 2HD about 1.3%, and 4HD >.2%...the sum of these is 6.5%. But looking at the graph above, showing THD, we see only 5%. Even assuming that 5HD, 6HD etc are zero, shouldn't the THD graph show at least 6.5% at 50Hz?

Larger discrepancies can be seen at other points, for instance at 31.5Hz, 2HD+3HD+4HD = 12% on the lower graph, but on the THD graph we see only 8%.

Am I misunderstanding something, or is there something wrong with one or both graphs?
The calculation for determining %THD is not the additive summation of the individual distortion harmonics.
 
Ricci

Ricci

Bassaholic
As Ed says distortion components do not simply add together. 2+2 does not equal 4 in this case. It is a ratio of the total strength of the harmonics together referenced against the strength of the basic carrier frequency. In other words if one harmonic is much stronger relative to the fundamental frequency than the others, it will primarily dominate the total THD%. In the case noted above the 3rd harmonic dominates at about 5%. Since the 2nd and 4th harmonics are just barely 1% or much less (Much less strength than the 3rd harmonic) they make a negligible impact on the total.
 
E

Ed Mullen

Manufacturer
The old school way to manually calculate %THD is to obtain the SPL of the fundamental and each relevant distortion harmonic from the harmonic distortion spectra profile. Then convert all of them from dB to Pascals (which is a linear expression as opposed to log10), then input the values into the proper formula - and then crank out the %THD.
 
R

Raks

Banned
I respectfully dis-agree. SVS has pushed its prices so high, it does not make any sense not to go for Seaton than SVS. Moreover, SVS folks do so much forum posts to boost their products, it is hard to figure out if they are really what they are touted to be.

In the past the cost of SVS and HSU were in similar bracket. Now SVS is in a different league price wise. The price SVS is asking for, I am not sure why should anyone not go for RELs and Velodynes. These ID companies are supposed to be doing a VFM (Value For Money) and in that process SVS has reached the price of B&M companies already.

BTW...How is the 13.5" PB 13 Ultrs better than a 15" Rythmik FV15HP ?

It's great to see the objective measurements to back up what my own subjective listening told me about this SVSound PB13-Ultra DSP!

I was EXTREMELY impressed with the performance of the PB13-Ultra DSP when I heard one of the first units. I literally couldn't find a single thing to complain about. My only thought was that the only thing a more expensive sub could offer would be more output. And for the vast majority of people, there's no way they would ever require more output in a typical home - even one with a large home theater.

I'm personally less inclined to believe in the importance of being able to produce frequencies below 16Hz. For one thing, there are exceedingly few recordings that contain any information below 20Hz, let alone anything below 16Hz (which itself only crops up in pipe organ music or synthesized bass). While it's sort of cool to see a sub produce a measured response at 10 or 12Hz, I've never personally seen any real value in such performance because I literally cannot hear it and such frequencies basically don't exist in any normal material! (only in test tones).

So for me, I'm much more concerned with being able to really hit 20Hz with solid, non-compressed output. And since I can hear down to 18Hz (at least according to the testing that I underwent), I enjoy hearing a subwoofer that can extend down to that frequency. But the real meat is in being able to hit 20Hz with essentially the same output as the frequencies above 20Hz with frequency response that remains flat even as the SPL is increased.

My own subjective listening told me that the PB13-Ultra achieved my desires better than any subwoofer I had heard before. And the measurements in this review absolutely appear to back up my experience! 110dB CLEAN at 20Hz in what is essentially an quasi-anechoic environment?! That is amazing performance. But even more amazing is how the frequency response remains flat whether the output is 85dB or 105dB! THAT'S the kind of performance I've been dreaming of ever since my very first HTiB! lol :p And it's the kind of performance that even a very, very nice subwoofer like my Axiom EP500 just cannot deliver.

The price, the size and the weight? I hope people understand that if you really want performance at this level, there's no cheating the physics and the cost! IMO, this is about as small and inexpensive as anyone can make a subwoofer that performs this way. It is WAY less expensive than many subs that cannot even match this level of performance. Personally, I don't agree with docking a half a star for the "Value" rating. While it's true that most people likely don't have the budget for a $2000 subwoofer, I'd ask that Audioholics present to me a subwoofer that can match the PB13-Ultra DSP's performance while costing less! Then, and only then, would I agree that the PB13-Ultra DSP deserves anything less than a 5-star "Value" rating. And I say that because I know that achieving similar performance typically costs WAY more. There's cost and there's value. And while the PB13-Ultra DSP ain't cheap, it's value is still through the roof!

Anywho, I already trusted my ears, but it's nice to see the measurements line up exactly with my own perception. The fact that any "normal" person could conceivably afford this sub is what has had me so excited about it. This is not some $35,000 item that no normal person could ever own. This is a $2000 sub - and that includes the shipping to your door! That's simply outstanding. And while I've seen a handful of people bemoaning the fact that SVSound is no longer a "cheap" subwoofer company (no sub less than $679 anymore), I'd argue that they are making and selling the best subwoofer that they have ever offered and they are doing so at prices that don't really reflect just how good these SVSes really are!
 
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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
The Submersive is a more expensive sub after shipping, and its performance has never been measured by a professional third party. Also it has a three year warranty as opposed to SVS's five year warranty. And if you think that SVS is on par with REL and Velodyne in terms of price/performance, just compare the DD18+'s measurements to the PB13's, and then compare their prices. And I don't even think REL has anything that comes close to the performance of a PB13. That being said, yes, of course I would much rather have a Submersive, but SVS does have its advantages.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
The Submersive is a more expensive sub after shipping, and its performance has never been measured by a professional third party.
Moreover, SVS folks do so much forum posts to boost their products, it is hard to figure out if they are really what they are touted to be.
Ohh sweet irony.... :D

Personally when I had the choice, I went for the PB13U over the less costly but highly competitive FV15HP, and the unknown quantity of the Seaton Submersive. With respect to the FV15HP, the better base finish (real wood or piano black versus the base vinyl for the Rythmik which makes it such a compelling value) and five year comprehensive warranty won me over. There were a couple other bits that also made the decision easier, namely the SVS' sealed mode which I though interesting, and being unimpressed by Josh Ricci's assessment on the one port mode on the Rythmik.

Versus the Seaton SubM, frankly I didn't see a need to take a gamble. The PB13U is a well vetted piece of equipment...the Submersive, not so much. When it's my $2000, I'll take the known quantity every time. Of course, my room isn't overly conducive to a sealed sub since it doesn't give much in the way of gain which also factored into my thinking.

In retrospect and given what I've got, I don't have any real regrets. A few items have piqued my interest since, namely the PSA XS30 and the Funk 18.1, but I'm not exactly rushing out to sell the PB13.

All that said, YMMV. People have different priorities and requirements, so it's nice to have a lot of options.
 
R

Raks

Banned
What Price & Performance are you talking about ShadyJ ? Velodyne and REL and Brick & Mortar companies. One gets to hear them, play with them before he/she buys. SVS Subs can not be heard before they are bought. Dont give me that 3o day return logic...It is a 100+ lb sub and the ID business counts on people not returning it because of that. So give me a break and not compare price and performance of ID companies and B&M companies. Here is a comparision of prices

Seaton Submersive (original) --> $2,330 including Shipping (1000 W Amp, 15" Driver)

Seaton Submersibe HP --> $2,430 inc Shipping (2400W Amp, 15" Driver)

JTR Captivator S --> $2300 (2400W Amp, 18" Driver)

Funky Waves 18.0 --> $3000 (2400W Amp, 4000W Peak, 18" driver)

Funky Waves 18.3 --> $3600 ( Dual 18" Drivers)

JL Audio F113 --> $3300

Velodyne Digital Drive Plus 15 Inch --> $4000

REL R528 --> $2200 (16" Driver)

REL G1 --> $4500 (Class AB Amp)

Now tell me why a single 13.5" driver with 1000W Amp is costing $2000 ? SVS is not a Value For Money (VFM) anymore. When I planned my HT 4 to 5 years ago, SVS and HSU were in the same price bracket. Now SVS has gone to $2000 category for slightly better offerings. HSU is the VFM product. SVS is not. I do understand that SVS gets the additional 10% of performance at double the price. That is why SVS is not VFM anymore.

The moment the SUB costs more then $1000, it starts to lose its VFM factor. Rythmik is $200 above the VFM factor. But not as bad VFM as SVS. The entry level ported Sub in SVS costs $700 and it is the only one below $1200price tag from SVS (please dont tell me about the newly introduced unltra entry level subs from SVS). SVS does not have Value for money factor anymore.


The Submersive is a more expensive sub after shipping, and its performance has never been measured by a professional third party. Also it has a three year warranty as opposed to SVS's five year warranty. And if you think that SVS is on par with REL and Velodyne in terms of price/performance, just compare the DD18+'s measurements to the PB13's, and then compare their prices. And I don't even think REL has anything that comes close to the performance of a PB13. That being said, yes, of course I would much rather have a Submersive, but SVS does have its advantages.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Well, "value" entails several things. I like and trust SVS, and that's part of the value to me.

Back in mid-2007, I bought a PC13-Ultra for $1398 after shipping - and that was with pre-order pricing. So, the PC13-Ultra back in 2007 after it was released was $1500 shipped. They are now $1700 shipped, after five years of inflation, and with a more powerful and advanced amp. IMO, that's not bad at all.

The newly released SB13-Ultra is $1600, with the same amp as the PC13 (with some modified settings for the sealed box) and nearly identical driver. I also own one of those, and with my listening habits, it is right up there with the PC13-Ultra.

So, I don't see SVS as being much if any less of a value than they were five years ago.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Now tell me why a single 13.5" driver with 1000W Amp is costing $2000 ? SVS is not a Value For Money (VFM) anymore...The moment the SUB costs more then $1000, it starts to lose its VFM factor...SVS does not have Value for money factor anymore.
Thanks for the detailed analysis :rolleyes:
 
R

Raks

Banned
When i said VFM, I am not intentding that for SVS fanboys. I was intending that Value For Money (VFM) for common man who spends his/her hard earned dollars.

5 to 7 years ago, both HSU and SVS were competing head on in the same price bracket. Now SVS costs double the HSU products. How did that happen ? Inflation is applicable to SVS and HSu as well. But HSU is still in a similar price bracket as earlier where as SVS got into the "Snake OiL" territory / SNOB zone. That is precisely why I call SVS as not a VFM product anymore.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
From a performance perspective, you should be looking at it as a $/dB ratio, not simply $. SVS isn't the best, but they aren't that bad, especially when compared to B&M brands. Their best product in this respect is probably the PC12 Plus, which I think is a high value product.

The PB13U is a well vetted piece of equipment...the Submersive, not so much.
I would definitely consider the Submersive a vetted product, to wit. There is ton of guys who upgraded to the Submersive from the PB13 and they all noted a marked improvement. Seaton is definitely the real deal.
 
R

Raks

Banned
ShadyJ....I am not just looking at the $. What is the improvement SVS is offering over HSU and then compare what it costs to get that improvement. It is marginal betterment at a steep price increase. A similar analogy is for speaker wire / inter connects. A $200 speaker wire / inter connect will give a very good performance, but there are speaker wire that costs almost $2000. The betterment you get is very marginal. That is what is happening with SVS offerings over HSU.

13.5" SVS driver ($2000) as against 15 Inch HSU Driver ($1000). I have posted so many other options in range of SVS offering and they all have bigger drivers and better specs. Still I consider that as a territory with improvements which come at a steep price.

From a performance perspective, you should be looking at it as a $/dB ratio, not simply $. SVS isn't the best, but they aren't that bad, especially when compared to B&M brands. Their best product in this respect is probably the PC12 Plus, which I think is a high value product.



I would definitely consider the Submersive a vetted product, to wit. There is ton of guys who upgraded to the Submersive from the PB13 and they all noted a marked improvement. Seaton is definitely the real deal.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
5 to 7 years ago, both HSU and SVS were competing head on in the same price bracket. Now SVS costs double the HSU products. How did that happen ?
For starters, Hsu doesn't really offer anything comparable in performance to the PB13U. You'd need 2 VTF15Hs stacked to equal the PB13's performance down low (20Hz-32Hz), and when you start factoring in things like the warranty, the PB13 doesn't look like that awful of a value to my eyes. YMMV.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I would definitely consider the Submersive a vetted product, to wit. There is ton of guys who upgraded to the Submersive from the PB13 and they all noted a marked improvement. Seaton is definitely the real deal.
What can I say, I don't consider forum buzz and subjective options "vetting". When you look at the PB13U, or even subs like your Outlaw LFM-1EX and Hsu VTF 3.3, you can look at measurements and see they've got reasonably flat FR, low distortion, good response in the time domain, etc because guys like Ricci and Ilkka have measured them up, down, and sideways. Within their performance envelopes, they are reference quality subs. That Mark doesn't want the Submersive reviewed and professionally measured with the stated reason that he doesn't want the additional sales...well, take from it what you will. I'm a cynic, so you can guess what I take from it.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
Raks. nevermind the woofer size. look at the measured ground plane results.
svs 13.5" > ordinary 15" woofer

if you don't think SVS is of value. that's fine. but your comparisons seem to have been done with blinders on.

i've had both a DD18 and a PB13Ultra. my experience mirrors the measurement results.
 
R

Raks

Banned
You need to spend $2000 to gain marginal betterment on SVS over a $1000 HSU VF-15H. You just defined what is called "Snake OIL Territory" and why I am precisely calling SVS is not a Value For Money Product.

For starters, Hsu doesn't really offer anything comparable in performance to the PB13U. You'd need 2 VTF15Hs stacked to equal the PB13's performance down low (20Hz-32Hz), and when you start factoring in things like the warranty, the PB13 doesn't look like that awful of a value to my eyes. YMMV.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
You need to spend $2000 to gain marginal betterment on SVS over a $1000 HSU VF-15H. You just defined what is called "Snake OIL Territory" and why I am precisely calling SVS is not a Value For Money Product.
How is a 2-1 advantage a "marginal improvement"?
 
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