DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

[Chu Gai]

Dennis hardly makes money from Philharmonic Audio. In fact, the opposite is true. Dennis started Phil Audio for the good of the WA Philharmonic and the audio community.

Thank you, Dennis!

To which I'll say that if you're not in this business to make money you eventually won't be in this business. 'Course, maybe he's spectacularly well off and can afford to be philanthropic.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

To which I'll say that if you're not in this business to make money you eventually won't be in this business. 'Course, maybe he's spectacularly well off and can afford to be philanthropic.

Hmmmmm. Philanthropic Audio. Maybe it's time for a name change. (BTW, I'm an economist by training, and both Adam Smith and I thank you for your comments about the virtues of specialization.)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Philanthropic Audio

No, no, no. That's still too long! You realize my Denon AVR can only fit 8 digits on the LCD screen?

You need a 3 letter name - DMA.

B&W
KEF
PSB
ATC
PMC
TAD
DMA

 

[KEW]

He's said he thinks his speakers are possibly only bettered by moving up to the 10-15K range. If that's the case, then what is there to object in my assigning a total cost of $3900?

So, are you saying the estimated cost of the speakers (and labor used to make them) are reasonably determined by whether or not it works out to be a bargain? That is insane!

The objection is you are assigning a cost where there is none! You would be better off sticking with a statement like $1100 plus xx hours labor. That way labor is included. Only Jin can evaluate his hours into dollars.

For your own purposes, you may want to assign a $/hr rate to decide if you want to build your own, but it is strange that you think you can reasonably determine someone else's value system.

I know in evaluating acceptable risk, it is a well know principal that people are willing to accept much higher risk levels for their own leisure activities (smoking, motorcycles, etc) than the risk levels associated with their workplace or inherent in the environment.

If you are telling me modern economic theory has yet to recognize this distinction, I'm not buying it!

 

[panteragstk]

I look at it like this. I built two subs. My total cost of materials was about $140. If I count the tools I used it jumps to $520 before I buy my amp which will run another $250. At that point I'll be at nearly $800. Now, my labor was very little, it maybe took a total of 3 hours not including glue drying time. I've looked at a lot of subs before making my decision to build them, and I know that for the performance I'm seeing from these, I could not have purchased the same performance for that money. I could have gotten that performance, sure, but for double the cost. Plus, I built it with my own hands, so I have the pride of workmanship that adds significant value to the project. So, if I were to look at this monetarily only, I would say this project is easily worth $2000. If I pay myself $100/hr I'm at $1100 total invested. I think that's a pretty good deal.

I totally agree with the economic side of this discussion, and I think quite a few are taking it the wrong way. No one is saying that your time could be spent doing "better" things, just merely stating that when you are factoring cost into your project, your time is valuable so you should factor that into your project even though no money was actually gained or lost (see my example), but time was lost. As the saying goes "time is something you can't steal". So when saying if your project was worth it to you, think about that.

 

[monkish54]

What made you decide to go with the 1262 driver?

 

[panteragstk]

What made you decide to go with the 1262 driver?

I know not of what you speak good sir.

 

[monkish54]

I know not of what you speak good sir.

Huh? lol

 

[panteragstk]

Huh? lol

I thought you were insinuating something and I was pretending I knew what it was.

I went with that driver because of jin's thread on here and parts express. Seemed to me that lots of people were having great results in comparison to the cost of the driver. I went with the DVC version so I can push more power through it without buying a pricey amp. I think 775w each will be plenty.

 

[Chu Gai]

So, are you saying the estimated cost of the speakers (and labor used to make them) are reasonably determined by whether or not it works out to be a bargain? That is insane!

No, you're saying that.

The objection is you are assigning a cost where there is none! You would be better off sticking with a statement like $1100 plus xx hours labor. That way labor is included. Only Jin can evaluate his hours into dollars.

And for his purposes, he's set it at 0. I have no idea what his equivalent labor rate for him in his area would be so I picked a number.

For your own purposes, you may want to assign a $/hr rate to decide if you want to build your own, but it is strange that you think you can reasonably determine someone else's value system.

I'm not about to pry and ask Jin for his salary. I could've picked the minimum wage but 20 just came to my mind while typing. What I think is strange is that it seems like most DIYers are setting a labor rate of zero. To me, I wonder if they're looking to unintentionally game the system.

I know in evaluating acceptable risk, it is a well know principal that people are willing to accept much higher risk levels for their own leisure activities (smoking, motorcycles, etc) than the risk levels associated with their workplace or inherent in the environment.

If you are telling me modern economic theory has yet to recognize this distinction, I'm not buying it!

Risk in what sense as it pertains to making speakers?

 

[Chu Gai]

Hmmmmm. Philanthropic Audio. Maybe it's time for a name change. (BTW, I'm an economist by training, and both Adam Smith and I thank you for your comments about the virtues of specialization.)

I'm not an economist but I don't feel terribly uncomfortable speaking a little about it. After all, it's not like all economists agree.

 

[GranteedEV]

You need a 3 letter name - DMA.

B&W
KEF
PSB
ATC
PMC
TAD
DMA

Philhar Monic Speakers

PMS

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The question of this thread is "Can you build speakers that are BETTER than professionally made speakers?"

The answer is: Better than SOME, but Not better than ALL professional speakers.

 

[TLS Guy]

For me, it is all about making better speakers. And I should tell you I submitted a design to a shoot out back in the eighties and won it handily. So it is about making better speakers.

 

[GranteedEV]

The answer is: Better than SOME, but Not better than ALL professional speakers.

It's not as if any professionally made speaker is either... though.

 

[monkish54]

strange...it seems like most DIYers are setting a labor rate of zero. To me, I wonder if they're looking to unintentionally game the system.

Strange...it seems to me most consumers are setting the "labor" rate to zero when they spend weeks demoing speakers before they buy. I wonder if they're looking to unintentionally game the system?

I don't think anyone is trying to "game the system". Rather, I think most DIYers enjoy DIY. If you hate designing and building, you probably wont be doing it. Sure, there are probably a few who DIY just for the savings, but those people are not in the "most" category. They are the few, not the many. I also think most consumers enjoy demoing speakers.

 

[jostenmeat]

Hope they dont have a turf war!!

Yes it is, although, they use a 6" midrange. :O

I wouldn't worry about it too much. It can handle much more power, but even the RAAL needs to be crossed above 2800hz!

IMO, thats lame audiophile nonsense. Audiophiles don't like parts near their speakers. Simple..isn't always better. Anyway, if i were to buy into that premise, 4khz is actually where we are most sensitive!

I wouldn't worry about it. If you want to start a new thread, that's cool, but this thread has pretty much been *****ing at the author of the article and bickering amongst ourselves..might as well put the thread to good use and help someone.

EDIT:

Also the OS are VERY insensitive and have low power handling. Andrew's speakers will be able to play louder!

Hm, you have me convinced now. I was sort of apprehensively looking towards building my first xovers, and first cabinet finishing, but oh well. I have too many interests on the plate anyway.

BTW, the bit about going for a 4kHz xover point, I thought* it was TLS Guy who was recommending that before, and if I'm not mistaken he too is British!

The question is do I pull the trigger on the sale a half year in advance, or bide my time, hmm. I assume the matching center will either rarely or never go on sale.

 

[monkish54]

BTW, the bit about going for a 4kHz xover point, I thought* it was TLS Guy who was recommending that before, and if I'm not mistaken he too is British!

TLS Guy and Andrew should fight to the death! There is only room enough for one Brit in the audio realm (sorry KEF)!

According to this equal loudness chart, 4khz is most sensitive. If one wants to cross out of the sensitive band, they should cross at 1 or 6khz.

View attachment 11106

I assume the matching center will either rarely or never go on sale.

Perhaps Amazon has the center for cheaper?

 

[jostenmeat]

TLS Guy and Andrew should fight to the death! There is only room enough for one Brit in the audio realm (sorry KEF)!

According to this equal loudness chart, 4khz is most sensitive. If one wants to cross out of the sensitive band, they should cross at 1 or 6khz.

Perhaps Amazon has the center for cheaper?

I appreciate what you say about how 4kHz is most sensitive. (Momentarily playing devil's advocate) On the flip side, what kinds of musical sounds are produced at 4kHz (rhetorical question); what I mean is that can we all so immediately distinguish the errors/variations of the harmonics (and fundamentals of some extremely high pitched instruments?) at this freq? Because, I tell you, if there is just one single instrument/source that we pretty much ALL can tell errors with, I submit it would have to be the human voice. For better and worse, we hear it produced naturally* just about everyday of our lives. When was the last time you listened to a viola in a room, or harpsichord, or uhhh, musical saw?

 

[Chu Gai]

When or will you be taking any macro and microeconomic courses, Monk? And in your example, they're not looking to game the system. Rather the actual cost of the speakers is increased especially if it took weeks or more.