DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have no doubt the bass, midrange, & treble of the Salon2 are among the best. And they have 3rd party measurements from NRC, Stereophile, HTM, S&V, and others to PROVE it. Revel has talented engineers & PhDs working for them.

It's no surprise at all that people who buy Revel, KEF, B&W, TAD, etc, think the "pros" are better; and people who build their own speakers or buy ID speakers think the DIYs are better. No surprise at all.

People who own $30K Krell think their amps are better, and people who own $300 Crown think their amps are just as good.

People who own $25K 800D2 think their speakers sound better, and people who own $2.5K Salk think their speakers sound better.

Surprise, surprise.

Why, of course, mine is better than yours.

 

[monkish54]

Would a DIY design, or more specifically, your design, do any better in the bass in my room than the naked Salon 2s? I don't know, but I doubt it.

A cardioid pattern design might help your problem considerably.

There are a few cardioid pro speakers, but they are VERY expensive. KEF Muon is cardioid.

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[Irvrobinson]

A cardioid pattern design might help your problem considerably.

Maybe. As I mentioned to you privately, my current direction appears to be towards electrostatics. I've heard some again recently, and I'm drawn to them. I'm afraid of them, but I'm drawn to them.

 

[jostenmeat]

AHHH, this forum is so different now!!!

It has given a great sense of achievement like the guy who climbs a high mountain. It also gives me enormous pleasure every time I listen to it. I am currently working my way though the Mahler symphony cycle from the Lucerne Festival under Claudio Abado. Absolutely stunning, with huge depth of stage and every instrument is their correct space. The mezzo soprano solos just sound like they should with perfect balance of head and chest voice in a realistic space. There are certain things you can't put a price on, as they say "priceless".

Thank you for your post, and I apologize to all for taking this off topic, but you've mentioned these Mahler works enough times now to have me looking through the current selection. You have both the Lucerne recordings, and a Dudamel recording? Do you prefer one over the other? Do you know how the Royal Concertgebouw recordings will compare, which are to be released in two days? (The Abbado set from 1-7 seems like a good value, but it would sort of be nice to just "get all of them", and the set from Amsterdam is 1-10; a quick glance at a review shows a complaint about not having subtitles available. This is not a huge issue to me, but do your recordings have the subtitles?) I suppose I could possibly "cherry pick" the highest rated performances one at a time, but they seem to be around $35-40 per, and I figure I might rather get them at say half the price with a large initial outlay. I looked to rent them first to see which ones I would rather spend the money on, but Netflix apparently only carries the DVD versions. Thank you.

 

[jinjuku]

I have no doubt the bass, midrange, & treble of the Salon2 are among the best. And they have 3rd party measurements from NRC, Stereophile, HTM, S&V, and others to PROVE it. Revel has talented engineers & PhDs working for them.

It's no surprise at all that people who buy Revel, KEF, B&W, TAD, etc, think the "pros" are better; and people who build their own speakers or buy ID speakers think the DIYs are better. No surprise at all.

People who own $30K Krell think their amps are better, and people who own $300 Crown think their amps are just as good.

People who own $25K 800D2 think their speakers sound better, and people who own $2.5K Salk think their speakers sound better.

Surprise, surprise.

Why, of course, mine is better than yours.

I'm under no illusion. There are better speakers out there than mine. But based on my experience and direct comparison I will defend the point that I built a pair of speakers, when taking all commercial offerings into consideration, probably have me in the top 10% or better of sound reproduction for a 2.0 setup.

I would jump at a chance for Revel, Wilson Audio, TAD, KEF respective high end.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm under no illusion. There are better speakers out there than mine. But based on my experience and direct comparison I will defend the point that I built a pair of speakers, when taking all commercial offerings into consideration, probably have me in the top 10% or better of sound reproduction for a 2.0 setup.

I would jump at a chance for Revel, Wilson Audio, TAD, KEF respective high end.

I definitely agree that DIY speakers can have great potential. They can sound great. They may even sound essentially as good as any pro.

The builder must be very skillful and knowledgable in speaker design & building. It will not be easy. It will be very time consuming and challenging.

Just as long as DIY don't claim to build speakers that sound better than all the pro speakers like Revel, KEF, B&W, TAD, etc.

 

[Chu Gai]

So, how much money (labor) do you waste on Golf in a given year? Fishing? Working on your car? Gaming on your console? Sorry just can't agree with you on this one.

Economists and business people among others deal with these sorts of things each day. Whether we like them or not, values can be and are assigned to life and limb be they union contracts or lawsuits. The term opportunity costs comes to mind here. An oft used example is something like should Michael Jordan cut his own lawn in say 4 hours or should he pay his groundskeeper $1,000? After all, Jordan is a great lawn cutter and he enjoys this. If he decides to cut his lawn, what does he give up and what does it potentially cost him?

Just because my hobby produces a tangible result doesn't negate the fact that my labor cost for that is in fact ZERO. So my Statements cost me $1100 all out. Not a penny more, not a penny less.

Yes, but an economist would value that somewhat differently. BTW, since as you've said, DIY'ers have access to sundry measurement tools, how did the speakers you made measure?

 

[jinjuku]

What a sad, sad, world we then live in Chu. One of the problems if everything is about the almighty dollar. Let's just say we have different goals. When I get a chance I'll fire up the Omni-mic.

BTW since everything seems to rest on a balance sheet: You have kids?

 

[Nuance AH]

You bring up a ton of examples about the design process and how certain speaker designers spent countless years and effort honing their respective designs. However, this the design process, not the process of literally assembling a speaker. Yes it would be extremely difficult for a DIY'er to start from scratch and build a speaker that can compete with the very best on their own. That's a long and arduous process that can take years of experimenting. In that sense I kind of agree with you. However, you then take that point and extrapolate to other areas that IMHO do not apply this, your original point.

I need to single out this point because I think it needs to be addressed specifically (because it is a fantastic observation). When someone says DIY do they mean build a piece of equipment on your own that someone else already designed, such as the Statement speakers? Or do they mean design everything yourself, including the crossover specific to the drivers chosen, the cabinet, etc? DIY as in "Do It Yourself" can yield superb results, but in my opinion it is likely because someone else already "designed" it. Now if you think of DIY as "Design It Yourself," well, that's totally different IMO. Having the skills and resources to design a product from the ground up that is equal to or superior to the likes of Kef, Revel, TAD, etc is much more difficult than building a speaker, amp, preamp, etc that has already been design and engineered. I'm not saying no one can do it, but I'd bet it's a much smaller percentage of people. Using someone else's design and building a product yourself is a fantastic way to save money provided you have the skill set and tools to do so (such as jinjuku). However, designing a product on your own is completely different, and to say you'd be able to equal or better Revel, TAD, Kef in all categories...well, let's just say this: I'll believe it when I see it, see the measurements and hear it, because that's no easy feat.

So what is the true definition of DIY? Design It Yourself or simply Do It Yourself (put it together)? Learning what the definition of DIY means to each individual will certainly clear up a lot of confusion found in this thread, and will probably explain a lot. For example, I personally don't consider a "kit" DIY; more like FIY (Finish It Yourself). What does DIY mean to you guys?

 

[Nuance AH]

I'm under no illusion. There are better speakers out there than mine. But based on my experience and direct comparison I will defend the point that I built a pair of speakers, when taking all commercial offerings into consideration, probably have me in the top 10% or better of sound reproduction for a 2.0 setup.

I would jump at a chance for Revel, Wilson Audio, TAD, KEF respective high end.

Eek! I'm very confident your Statements, unless flawed in some way that we don't know about (of which I doubt), sound much better than anything Wilson makes. BLAH! YMMV, and to each their own, of course.

 

[jinjuku]

Yes, but an economist would value that somewhat differently.

I could not imagine being an economist and every-time I go to do something I enjoy, thinking: Am I better off paying someone else to do this. How does one go about explaining this to the wife (if you know what I mean ). If I make $1000/hour do I just get her a 'pool boy' and take myself out of the loop.

This is what you are at a foundational level advocating.

 

[Chu Gai]

I wouldn't say it's all about the almighty dollar but it's entirely reasonable from an economist's POV to look to assign a monetary amount to things in order to better understand them. The point is not necessarily to choose one option over another and have money be the deciding factor. Rather it's one way, and sometimes the best way, to analyze scenarios. By no stretch of the imagination should you think I was assigning an arbitrary value of $20/hr as what it's worth to spend time with your father. Time is a commodity in short supply as we get older. I am saying if those figures I presented earlier are reasonably in the ball park, then you place a greater value than $2800 on the hobby, spending time with your Dad, etc. The labor rate I chose is something you might expect to earn outside of your daily job had you chosen to do so. Maybe it's more or less.

Yes, I have kids but they're all grown up. In my case I chose kids knowing full well (sometimes I wonder about that!) that children cost money, time, opportunity, and whatever else one can think of. Like you, I think of them as priceless. Yet were they to have been injured, perhaps permanently so, you can bet I'd be going after somebody and I'd be looking for actual and punitive damages.

Sorry edited rather than quoted

 

[Chu Gai]

To me, Nuance, I look at DIY as meaning that one has largely designed the whole thing from the ground up. Doesn't have to be a singular effort and certainly can involve assistance. But copying a design to the letter is no different than the two of us buying the same kit car, shed plans, or heating up the same can of soup.

 

[templemaners]

So what is the true definition of DIY? Design It Yourself or simply Do It Yourself (put it together)? Learning what the definition of DIY means to each individual will certainly clear up a lot of confusion found in this thread, and will probably explain a lot. For example, I personally don't consider a "kit" DIY; more like FIY (Finish It Yourself). What does DIY mean to you guys?

Short answer, to me, DIY would be any speaker/sub that does not come ready to use out of the box (with one exception).

So, a few examples:

• Putting together a kit that has cabinets and the crossover already assembled = DIY
• Using an existing design and following those instructions to build the speaker (a la Statements) = DIY
• Designing your own speaker from the ground up = DIY
• Adding an amp to a passive sub (like the ones Funk Audio and JTR sell) <> DIY to me.

Feels like different shades of the same color, differentiated based on skill level.

 

[monkish54]

I have two points to make. Please realize I am not trying to offend.

1. Why does a speaker designer need to put 10, 15, 20 years into a speaker for it to be decent? I keep seeing this, but I don't understand. Designing an inert cabinet is not that difficult and can be done many different ways. If it takes a company 57.64598 years to design their loudspeaker, it is not because the cabinet is so hard to design.
2. I have noticed a pattern: those who have never attempted to design (or learn how to) tend to think it is impossible, and those who have designed tend to make it sound easy.

Perhaps designing isn't that easy...

When designing a loudspeaker, as any designer and most hobbyists will tell you, there are many compromises, and many considerations. What kind of "throw" do I want? Bipole? Dipole? Omni? Cardioid? Dipole midrange, monopole tweeter, cardioid bass? (That sounds really strange...) Do I want a multi driver array? Fullrange? How low do I want this speaker to play? What kind of bass alignment should I use? Ported? Sealed (QTC)? MLTL?

Once I decide to design a monopole with standard drivers (no ribbon or planar midrange or bass):

What should my box shape be? (How can I deal with diffraction?)

What drivers do I use? (How do I select one?)

How many drivers should I use?

How many drivers should i have playing frequency range "X"?

Driver spacing? (Can I put two drivers horizontally without issue?)

What crossover slope should I use?

What should my crossover point be? (How do I decide on a XO frequency?)

Should I time align?

Digital crossovers?

What's the difference between series and parallel wiring?

What happens to a driver's sensitivity when I put two in series? Parallel? What happens to the impedance?

These are just some of the basic considerations, and decisions that are made. Is it as easy as pouring cereal? No! Is it impossible? Of course not! Loudspeaker design is no different than designing anything else; if you put the effort into learning and you have the resources, you will do just fine.

 

[panteragstk]

To me, DIY is anything that if you don't do yourself, you have to pay someone else for. Whether you design the speaker, you are still putting it together and making a cabinet. Now, if you buy a pre-made kit with the crossover soldered and the cabinet is already made, then that's just assembling it yourself. Not quite the same, you aren't really creating anything. Anyone with a screwdriver can put drivers in a cabinet, but making that cabinet is a whole other ball game. May not be TOTAL DIY from the ground up, but cabinet building is difficult enough with detailed plans.

 

[cpp]

I could not imagine being an economist and every-time I go to do something I enjoy, thinking: Am I better off paying someone else to do this. How does one go about explaining this to the wife (if you know what I mean ). If I make $1000/hour do I just get her a 'pool boy' and take myself out of the loop.

This is what you are at a foundational level advocating.

If people throughout the world just gave up and paid somebody else to do anything/everything for them, well we would all be working for someone else... or one could describe it would as one big economic loop with no thought process or initiative to do anything yourself or be constructive in your daily life.

 

[Nuance AH]

Thanks to those who replied to my question already. I think the differing opinions on what DIY is is what is causing so much confusion and some bickering. Some folks think it is anything that doesn't arrive to you complete, while others think it is something that is designed and built completely from the ground up. Now that we realize we don't all have the same definition of DIY we should be able to get along easier.

 

[Chu Gai]

I could not imagine being an economist and every-time I go to do something I enjoy, thinking: Am I better off paying someone else to do this. How does one go about explaining this to the wife (if you know what I mean ). If I make $1000/hour do I just get her a 'pool boy' and take myself out of the loop.

This is what you are at a foundational level advocating.

But maybe without realizing it, you are an economist and consciously or subconsciously do this every day of your life. You decide to eat out rather than in. Or if you decide to eat in, do you do it all from scratch or do you buy some stuff (maybe a cheesecake) ready made. Let's say you enjoy making those speakers. On one of the days that you would normally work on it, maybe the wife says she'd like everyone to go and visit her relatives, or your kids ask if you'd go to their ball game. We make decisions all day based on trade-offs. It can sometimes see that it seems to come down to who we'll disappoint. Or let's say you enjoy fishing and you'd like to have cod on Friday. You could go fishing, maybe there's a cod charterboat, maybe you'll get lucky. Maybe you just grab a few pieces at the store or maybe there's a fish market but you've got to drive 80 miles round trip to get there. In your mind you're weighing various options to figure out which one is worth it.

 

[Chu Gai]

If people throughout the world just gave up and paid somebody else to do anything/everything for them, well we would all be working for someone else... or one could describe it would as one big economic loop with no thought process or initiative to do anything yourself or be constructive in your daily life.

Maybe not everything, but that's the way virtually all societies work. There are areas of specialization. It may involve payment in currency or even bartering. Gee, I'd really like a pair of shoes and I'll give you a hand by painting your fence in exchange.

Consider this brief article from the Freakonomics blog. Freakonomics » The Opportunity Cost of Water