Need Advice, new HT 15k budget

S

Senact

Audioholic Intern
First time poster, reader for a while. I've finally reached a point in life where I can get serious about my HT. I've always had "decent" equipment (5k for entire package), which impresses most of my friends, but I'd like to take it to the next level.

Our tenants have moved out and I finally have access to the basement again. The room I'd like to use is 22x14x7.5'. I've got a budget of roughly 15k, this can fluctuate a bit if needed for the best deal. I'd like to go with a projector (Pana AE8000 or Epson6020) with 120" screen (haven't picked that out yet).
The area I need advice on is the speaker set. I'd like to go 7.1 or 7.2 and I nearly settled on the Epic 80 600 Axiom speakers, which was handy as I live in Canada, but after countless hours of forum searching, it seems they might not provide the best bang for my buck.

I have an OK ear for Audio, but basically I just want to mimic the movie theatre experience as much as possible. I can easily tell that my KEF 5.1 speaker set just can't produce the quality I'm after. Basically I'm looking for advice from the pros on which set would give me overall the best sound for the price. I'm not really interested in building my own speakers or mixing different brands together, I like to stick with one brand. (Unless this severly limits the quality I could have). Thanks in advance.
 
T

templemaners

Senior Audioholic
I'm not really interested in building my own speakers or mixing different brands together, I like to stick with one brand. (Unless this severly limits the quality I could have).
Yes, this will limit the quality you could have because the list of companies that make great speakers and great subs is pretty short. I think mixing brands between subs and speakers is definitely worth doing. Funk Audio would be my choice in Canadian based sub makers.

Depending on how far you sit back from the screen and the SPL levels you listen at, you should consider speakers with higher efficiency.

Also, are you planning to use an acoustically transparent screen? That would affect your selection for your L/C/R's - with an AT screen, you should try and get identical speakers for the front 3.
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
forum searching, it seems they might not provide the best bang for my buck.

I have an OK ear for Audio, but basically I just want to mimic the movie theatre experience as much as possible. .
This has JTR written all over it.

JTR Speakers | Professional Audio Speakers

I would get in touch with RMK

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/pros-joes-systems-gallery/36461-new-ht-room-85.html

Or MidnightSensi2 and jostenmeat on the speakers and BMXTRIX on the screen and PJ.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Canada with a healthy budget? I would take a close look at Funk Audio, especially for the subs, but also their speakers too.
 
S

Senact

Audioholic Intern
Depending on how far you sit back from the screen and the SPL levels you listen at, you should consider speakers with higher efficiency.

Also, are you planning to use an acoustically transparent screen? That would affect your selection for your L/C/R's - with an AT screen, you should try and get identical speakers for the front 3.
I have to decide if I want 2 rows of seating or one, which would effect the distance, but I imagine I'll be about 12' from the screen, I'm still in the planning/learning stage of this whole thing, I thought I knew quite a bit about HT's but going beyond your basic receiver/5.1 set at Bestbuy, there is a whole new level to learn about. I'm still researching differences between receivers and pre/pro/amps, acoustic treatments, even things like wiring. I plan to redo the whole room down to the framing, so I want to learn as much as I can before I rush into anything.

As for the screen, I haven't done my research on that yet, I would like to acoustically treat the room with some panels that I've seen in some people's HT's, but as of now, I was just going to put the screen on the back wall and have the speakers underneath and to the sides.

I'll do some research on Funk Audio's subs.
Thanks for the advice :D
 
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J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
SVS is also available in CA, AFAIK. Do not choose screen size until you have figured out viewing distance. Try 38% of room length, front or back, as your starting point, or barely less than that. Then use a viewing angle calculator to start at 36 deg or so. Personally, I recommend you get the PJ first, fire it at the wall with everything you watch. Huge factors are also brightness of PJ, and even more so, the room conditions. I like 42 deg. Which is bigger than most. But I only watch BDs pretty much, and nice ones at that usually.

Seymour CenterStage XD is about $1700 prebuilt at 120" 1.78. If you don't want to build speakers, you prolly don't want to build a screen either, but if you did, you could save close to 1.5k using their fabric. An in between pricing could be a Jamestown frame with said material.

You should look towards JVC RS series, do not settle for LCD at your budget. OTOH, some warning about JVC is that 3D may not be bright enough depending on your final size, and particular models of past may have really given it up with brightness (like the RS60). Look up Feierman's reviews, particularly looking for lumens measurements; never ever ever trust mftr given lumens specs. Take that figure, divide by square ft of screen, you have your foot lamberts. Long standing SMPTE standard is 16 ft lamberts for a theater . . . which leads me to the real thing I want to say:

Don't settle for mimicking the theater experience. Your goal at your budget should be to blow it away entirely. You can do that if willing to make the theater very dark. Commercial theaters have rope lighting everywhere, lit exit signs, etc. Usually older bulbs, etc.

I've gone to one movie a year, during '08, '09, '10, I think. I've given up. BTW, I was paying top dollar tix for the highest end DLP theaters and/or IMAX each time. IMO they all totally suck compared to mine, and yours should turn out even better.

A side note about super efficient speakers like JTR is that if you get a decent receiver, you may not need an amp, depending on volume you want, and distance.

edit: I see your latest post. Be very wary of center below screen. Especially with low ceiling. And super especially if considering two rows with low ceiling coupled to larger screen. If you know how to frame, then you know how to make a false wall, and probably could do that DIY Seymour. A fellow Canadian of yours did just that.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
For subs & speakers, I second the Funk Audio rec. I would get dual unpowered F18.0 subs & 5 or 7 identical unpowered Funk High efficiency monitors. :D
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
For subs & speakers, I second the Funk Audio rec. I would get dual unpowered F18.0 subs & 5 or 7 identical unpowered Funk High efficiency monitors. :D
Do you have a HT (5.1 or better)?

It looks like it's all 2 or 2.1 to me.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I'd start off with a 5.1 or 5.2 set up first.
Then expand on it later if necessary.
 
manwithnocape

manwithnocape

Audioholic
ill third the funk audio choice for both subs and loudspeakers/monitors, center (5.4P), def. dual 18.0's or 18.3's if you want serious rumble.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I have an OK ear for Audio, but basically I just want to mimic the movie theatre experience as much as possible. I can easily tell that my KEF 5.1 speaker set just can't produce the quality I'm after. Basically I'm looking for advice from the pros on which set would give me overall the best sound for the price. I'm not really interested in building my own speakers or mixing different brands together, I like to stick with one brand. (Unless this severly limits the quality I could have). Thanks in advance.
Assuming your KEF 5.1s are not of the R series, have you considered them? They seem to be getting some good reviews and I am sure even the smaller R300s plus a couple of good subs can fill your room nicely. I wouldn't recommend their subs though as there are better ones for less.
 
S

Senact

Audioholic Intern
Assuming your KEF 5.1s are not of the R series, have you considered them? They seem to be getting some good reviews and I am sure even the smaller R300s plus a couple of good subs can fill your room nicely. I wouldn't recommend their subs though as there are better ones for less.
I'm currently using the KEF2005.3 and I've been happy with them until I started becoming more...particular. I'm not sure how to describe what they lack but they just sound so plain... they don't have the deep enveloping sound that a movie theater has, and if you push them too hard then you really notice, even with the sub, it seems to lack base.

@Jostenmeat - Awesome info, I never really considered a false wall, I do have the option to extend the room another 8' in length if needed, I'll have to investigate that further. As for seating, I wasn't keen on two rows, I should be able to comfortably seat 4 people in one row and that should be sufficient for 95% of our viewing. The ceiling height has been a big limiting factor in the design.

I was going to paint the room (walls/ceiling) "black bean", I saw it in someone's home theater and it looked great, it's a warm neutral brown color. I've got one small window that I'll cover up, so the room will have no ambient light. I'll check out the JVC models you listed as well.

Sounds like Funk is getting a lot of good feedback, looks like they are updating their product line atm.
 
J

jcl

Senior Audioholic
Paradigm and PSB are Canadian speaker brands sold in brick and mortar stores that you should be able to find and listen to.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Do you have a HT (5.1 or better)?

It looks like it's all 2 or 2.1 to me.
For HT, I have six identical KEF Reference 201/2 monitors (but one 201/2 is in the closet because I'm too lazy to set up a 6.1, so I'm doing just 5.1 now).

I use an Adcom GFS-600 speaker selector, so the 802D2, Salon2, 201/2, & TAD 2201 all share the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, ATI AT3005, & dual Funk 18.0 subs.

I think using identical speakers all around is a fine, fine idea. :D
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
@Jostenmeat - Awesome info, I never really considered a false wall, I do have the option to extend the room another 8' in length if needed, I'll have to investigate that further. As for seating, I wasn't keen on two rows, I should be able to comfortably seat 4 people in one row and that should be sufficient for 95% of our viewing. The ceiling height has been a big limiting factor in the design.

I was going to paint the room (walls/ceiling) "black bean", I saw it in someone's home theater and it looked great, it's a warm neutral brown color. I've got one small window that I'll cover up, so the room will have no ambient light. I'll check out the JVC models you listed as well.

Sounds like Funk is getting a lot of good feedback, looks like they are updating their product line atm.
This post has to be a quick one, and I may not be able to get back to you again until the end of the weekend or something. Addressing thoughts in order: Make sure that dims aren't double (like 28'x14', worse is equal, and even worse is when ceiling is half or equal too); hopefully someone here can figure out some ideal dims for you, with what you have. Remember that a false wall "isn't really there" when it's just acoustics.

You can do two rows, but 120" will be around the max you can figure with that, this is assuming AT screen, rather close to ceiling (but not too close), with a rather high riser, which is also placed about as snugly to front row as you'd want (which is still a bigger amount of space than you will originally guess). My usual advice is that minimum seat pitch is 6', if not more. (Seat pitch I believe is the term to describe distance between identical spots of seats in different rows.)

Calculators for you.
Viewing Distance Calculator

Hm, I can't find the old one, I wondered what they did with it. I haven't seen this one before, and it sure isn't as easy to use by first glance. Anyway, this is utter minimum (if it even works right), because the person in front may prefer not to recline (whereas you do in the back), and happens to prefer hair-dos from the 80s with lots of hairspray.
Home Theater Calculators - Riser Height; Determining the Optimal Home Theater Riser Height for Seating

You can easily find sq ft to do your ft lamberts calcs. You can do 4 screens at a time, and then do a unique save to share with other members.
TV Calculator

I don't have time to look up your black bean paint, but look up its grade for flatness/matte quality, and/or paint your candidates on a board and play with it under a direct light source.

Funk most definitely seems to have an excellent reputation. There are some neat finishes out there too. Bear in mind please that potentially you can hide 3 speakers and 2 subs behind your false wall AT screen, where you can pay for pure performance, hideous ugliness be damned. Do not place subs directly behind screen unless you don't mind a pulsating screen at extreme volumes.

The tidbit about starting with 5.1 to later upgrade to 7.1: I will say that I would position my side surrounds differently with the two scenarios. In the former I would have them at a larger angle to help straddle side and rear areas, and in the latter I would have them directly to the side, at right angles. That's me. If you have two rows, there is some trickiness. I changed to bipoles after a particular AH article talking about this extra coverage, but TBH, the effect wasn't nearly as great as I was hoping. Rear speakers, I definitely vote yes, a great portion of the latest blockbusters are being recorded in 7.1, at least the ones that I buy or watch. That said, I think the front 3 is where it's almost all at. Identical/tower center speaker aligned in the middle, many benefits, lemme go copy/paste a portion of a recent post of mine at a different forum, talking about the "pros/cons of AT".

It's entirely about the audio. Well, one way it could incidentally help out with video is by increasing the available space for a larger screen, depending on room dims/setup. Otherwise, entirely about the audio. Off the top of my head, in no specific order: 1. Audio/dialogue truly locked on to the screen. 2. Using identical speakers allows the best possible match. 3. All identical drivers being on the same plane allows for best possible panning effects. 4. (Typically) larger choice of (all important) center speaker usually allows for greater power handling. 5. (Typically) moving the speaker away from being to close to a boundary (ceiling or floor) reduces SBIR, and helps clarify audio. 5 (Typical) avoidance of horiz MTM center speaker configuration gives clearer dialogue intelligibility at the extremes of seating. I haven't talked about this stuff in close to a couple of years, so I'm probably forgetting something.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm currently using the KEF2005.3 and I've been happy with them until I started becoming more...particular. I'm not sure how to describe what they lack but they just sound so plain... they don't have the deep enveloping sound that a movie theater has, and if you push them too hard then you really notice, even with the sub, it seems to lack base.
Then you may want to audition the R series KEF. They should sound much better than the 2005.3.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
Since you were looking at the Axiom Epic 80-600, I'm assuming a $5,000 budget for speakers and sub(s).

Under budget:
Ascend Audio CM Family: CMT 340 for LCR, CMB170 for surrounds and rears.
2x Hsu Research VTF15H


On budget:
Aperion Audio Verus Family: Grand Towers, Center and Bookshelf speakers for surrounds and rears.
2x Rythmik Audio FV15HP with H550PEQ3 version amplifiers


Misc. recommendations:

Acoustical Treatments:
Do not ignore this aspect of your home theater. The Under budget options in a properly sorted room treatments will sound better than the Over Budget setup in a room with issues. Look at articles on Gik Acoustics and Real Traps.

Receiver:
Denon 3313, Amazon, open box.

Amp:
Emotiva XPA-3
 
manwithnocape

manwithnocape

Audioholic
For HT, I have six identical KEF Reference 201/2 monitors (but one 201/2 is in the closet because I'm too lazy to set up a 6.1, so I'm doing just 5.1 now).

I use an Adcom GFS-600 speaker selector, so the 802D2, Salon2, 201/2, & TAD 2201 all share the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, ATI AT3005, & dual Funk 18.0 subs.

I think using identical speakers all around is a fine, fine idea. :D
i've been toying with getting into surround sound... what benefits do you see with having this kind of set up?? i like the idea because it sounds awesome, but what do you think about the performance?
 
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