Vann's filing Chapter 11 bankruptcy

[Matt34]

Didn't see this coming.

Vann’s to File Chapter 11 Bankruptcy - CE Pro Article from CE Pro

 

[fuzz092888]

I'm not surprised, mainly because they're a B&M store first and an internet retailer second. If major retail locations like best buy are closing stores and struggling then small chain stores like Vann's have to be suffering as well. Like the CEO says himself, the generations of consumers that are coming up are more and more heavily dependent on internet only sales. Free shipping, more choices, lower prices, convenience, good return policies, NO SALES TAX, the list goes on and on for many young people as to why it makes more sense to buy online.

I'm not saying B&M stores don't offer a lot, being able to see, hear and touch something before you buy it is a powerful incentive to go to a store. Not to mention with B&M stores you meet an employee face to face who (depending on where you go) is knowledgeable and can give you personal attention and take care of any issues you may run into.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Damn, okay I know I said I wouldn't buy anything else after the 802D2, but if you guys see anything @75% off please let me know.

Who's next? Onecall, Electronics Expo, Crutchfield?

Damn economy.

 

[fuzz092888]

Damn, okay I know I said I wouldn't buy anything else after the 802D2, but if you guys see anything @75% off please let me know.

Who's next? Onecall, Electronics Expo, Crutchfield?

Damn economy.

I think it has less to do with the economy and more to do with a fundamental change in how consumers are shopping these days. I mean the economy definitely influences things since people are more likely to head online now for lower prices, no sales tax, better online customer service (online chats, quick email responses etc) and I think that more generous return policies really get people over the hump when it comes to not being able to interact with something before they buy.

Besides, young people are lazy and cheap. Voila, internet shopping cheaper prices and you never have to leave the couch

I mean, I haven't gone into an actual store to buy something (other than something I needed that day) in like 3 years. Why would I pay more for something I already decided I want and can be at my door a day or two after I click MINE (which is the order button for everyone else)?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think it has less to do with the economy and more to do with a fundamental change in how consumers are shopping these days. I mean the economy definitely influences things since people are more likely to head online now for lower prices, no sales tax, better online customer service (online chats, quick email responses etc) and I think that more generous return policies really get people over the hump when it comes to not being able to interact with something before they buy.

Besides, young people are lazy and cheap. Voila, internet shopping cheaper prices and you never have to leave the couch

I mean, I haven't gone into an actual store to buy something (other than something I needed that day) in like 3 years. Why would I pay more for something I already decided I want and can be at my door a day or two after I click MINE (which is the order button for everyone else)?

Damn the taxes.

 

[fuzz092888]

Very true, but I've also noticed that because of all the internet business that's going on now, I see more small businesses becoming authorized FEDEX and UPS shipping stations.

While this may not be true for bigger heavier items, slapping a prepaid shipping label on the box and dropping it off on my way to do other errands is just as easy, sometimes easier than returning to the store. YMMV, but as a member of this younger generation I see fewer reasons to go to the store every time I need to shop. No hustle and bustle, no getting there and them be out of stock, stuff like that.

If tax laws change than other considerations need to be made. Like when NY instituted their Amazon tax law. That seriously curbed my amazon purchases. I still buy a ton of crap from Amazon, but I knew look elsewhere first and only default to amazon if I can't find it or if the other place's shipping timeframe doesn't fit when I need the item by (I still maintain my prime membership).

So if the tax laws change, then maybe I'll start lugging myself to stores, but I still don't see B&M stores being able to keep up with internet direct in terms of everyday pricing. Without a physical structure to maintain as the interface between retailer and customer operating costs are much lower. Yes sometimes it's helpful to get personal attention, or in your case have someone to yell at face to face when something goes awry, but online chats suffice for my purposes

 

[Adam]

Besides, [STRIKE]young[/STRIKE] people are lazy and cheap.

Fixed for ya.

I think that everyone just wants the best value. That's not always the lowest price, though, as I think we all recognize. Value can be represented by total cost, convenience, time invested, level of confidence in the transaction...and for most of us, it's a combination of those and other things.

For example, I value my time at home with Niki. So, I'd rather do my "window" shopping online and have someone bring a product to my door than go somewhere. I'll also pay more at Amazon because I know that they'll take care of any problems that arise, if any. That said, I learned a lesson when buying my TV that buying from Best Buy might have been the better choice - Amazon dropped my cost after the first one was delivered broken and the delivery crew made a bit of a mess, but I would have paid more to not have that stress.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Very true, but I've also noticed that because of all the internet business that's going on now, I see more small businesses becoming authorized FEDEX and UPS shipping stations.

While this may not be true for bigger heavier items, slapping a prepaid shipping label on the box and dropping it off on my way to do other errands is just as easy, sometimes easier than returning to the store. YMMV, but as a member of this younger generation I see fewer reasons to go to the store every time I need to shop. No hustle and bustle, no getting there and them be out of stock, stuff like that.

If tax laws change than other considerations need to be made. Like when NY instituted their Amazon tax law. That seriously curbed my amazon purchases. I still buy a ton of crap from Amazon, but I knew look elsewhere first and only default to amazon if I can't find it or if the other place's shipping timeframe doesn't fit when I need the item by (I still maintain my prime membership).

So if the tax laws change, then maybe I'll start lugging myself to stores, but I still don't see B&M stores being able to keep up with internet direct in terms of everyday pricing. Without a physical structure to maintain as the interface between retailer and customer operating costs are much lower. Yes sometimes it's helpful to get personal attention, or in your case have someone to yell at face to face when something goes awry, but online chats suffice for my purposes

Yeah, for small components, there's no need for local stores. Even big components if the savings is big enough. The lowest price my local REVEL would sell the Salon2 for is $18K plus tax. So I got it from another authorized dealer online for $14K and no tax or shipping fees.

I bought all my speakers and components online (web or phone) except for 802D2, AVP-A1HDCI, 4010UD, and 2 Mitsubishi DLP because the local dealers were willing to price match online prices including tax.

To me it's all about prices, availability, and customer service. If the local stores could match all online prices including tax and have items available, there would be no reason for me to ever shop online.

One time I went to Best Buy to get a price match from Amazon on a BD movie. They said, "We don't price match online". I didn't buy the movie. So I have not gone back to a stupid BB store since then. If they are that stupid, I'll spend my money online.

 

[fuzz092888]

Fixed for ya.

I think that everyone just wants the best value. That's not always the lowest price, though, as I think we all recognize. Value can be represented by total cost, convenience, time invested, level of confidence in the transaction...and for most of us, it's a combination of those and other things.

For example, I value my time at home with Niki. So, I'd rather do my "window" shopping online and have someone bring a product to my door than go somewhere. I'll also pay more at Amazon because I know that they'll take care of any problems that arise, if any. That said, I learned a lesson when buying my TV that buying from Best Buy might have been the better choice - Amazon dropped my cost after the first one was delivered broken and the delivery crew made a bit of a mess, but I would have paid more to not have that stress.

Haha agreed on the fix and the bit about value. I definitely would rather be doing many other things than wandering through a store, fighting off the crazies for the very last something or other that's in stock.

Yea, stuff like that can be a real hassle. I don't how much beer I have to buy in order to entice a friend or stranger to help, but delivery people to not enter my place of dwelling, because of the mess they could make or the potential to break something. At least if it's someone I know or a homeless person I can beat them with a stick if they break anything

The broken thing is something that's always frustrating. I just had a fan controller for the entertainment stand come that had a broken display and I had to ship it back. While not exactly the same as having a huge tv come broken, it's still a hassle that instead of the 2 day shipping I paid for, I now have to wait a week and a half for replacement, because like an idiot I didn't just send it back for refund and buy another. Enter hassle of buying online.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I took a look at the Vann's site. The spot check I did on a few prices revealed higher prices than I've seen elsewhere, including for the Apple computer I'm typing on right now.

Universal internet sales tax seems inevitable. Even the GOP governors are caving in. And well they should, IMO. Giving one group of merchants an unfair tax-based advantage over another group is dumb. I agree with fuzz though, there's no way B&M stores can compete with pricing in the long run, sales taxes or no sales taxes.

 

[fuzz092888]

Yeah, for small components, there's no need for local stores. Even big components if the savings is big enough. The lowest price my local REVEL would sell the Salon2 for is $18K plus tax. So I got it from another authorized dealer online for $14K and no tax or shipping fees.

I bought all my speakers and components online (web or phone) except for 802D2, AVP-A1HDCI, 4010UD, and 2 Mitsubishi DLP because the local dealers were willing to price match online prices including tax.

To me it's all about prices, availability, and customer service. If the local stores could match all online prices including tax and have items available, there would be no reason for me to ever shop online.

One time I went to Best Buy to get a price match from Amazon on a BD movie. They said, "We don't price match online". I didn't buy the movie. So I have not gone back to a stupid BB store since then. If they are that stupid, I'll spend my money online.

I feel the same way. For certain items, if stores would price match including tax I'd go to the store, but they often won't.

 

[Adam]

Giving one group of merchants an unfair tax-based advantage over another group is dumb.

Maybe, maybe not. The government gives tax incentives to businesses all of the time - for example, to encourage them to build and operate in certain locations. There are tax incentives for things that the government wants to encourage (e.g. having kids), and higher taxes for things that the government wants to discourage (e.g. smoking...although, I wonder if they aren't just grabbing more money because they know folks will pay it anyway). Internet shops used to have to overcome the added costs of shipping, and most likely the added cost of initially buying products in smaller quantities than established B&M stores, so customers not having to pay sales tax gave them a way to be competitive. As time went on, though, some internet shops have grown large and automated, allowing them to reduce labor and material costs - add in greater availability because they can deliver almost anywhere in the country, and I think that the internet business model has several fundamental advantages over individual stores built in specific locations.

Online ordering is what mail ordering used to be, just much faster and easier due to the greatly enhanced communication speeds of the internet. I can get more information faster by researching online versus going to a store. I can also quickly get detailed images, as well as customer feedback, on most products that interest me.

Pretty soon, the government might start taxing online sales and not local sales. Oh, wait...they almost never get rid of taxes.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The government gives tax incentives to businesses all of the time - for example, to encourage them to build and operate in certain locations. There are tax incentives for things that the government wants to encourage (e.g. having kids), and higher taxes for things that the government wants to discourage (e.g. smoking...although, I wonder if they aren't just grabbing more money because they know folks will pay it anyway).

Oh yeah? Name another consumer-visible tax that varies within a state, based on which source you acquire a product or service from. Can't? Either can I. (The one exception might be considered progressive income taxes, but let's put that one aside.)

 

[Adam]

Oh yeah? Name another consumer-visible tax that varies within a state, based on which source you acquire a product or service from. Can't? Either can I. (The one exception might be considered progressive income taxes, but let's put that one aside.)

I'm not following. Tax incentives are pretty well known.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm not following. Tax incentives are pretty well known.

Alright, to use one of your examples, a tax break for a business locating in a certain vicinity is not consumer visible. A consumer does not pay for that tax break individually. If online sales have no sales tax and local sales have a sales tax that is consumer visible - the consumer pays different final prices. What other situation is comparable?

 

[Irvrobinson]

And variances in local property taxes don't count. You're paying to live in a specific location, or for a specific set of government services, or whatever. The online sales tax issue is the about identical products just purchased from different sources. There's no utility difference to the consumer.

 

[Adam]

Alright, to use one of your examples, a tax break for a business locating in a certain vicinity is not consumer visible. A consumer does not pay for that tax break individually. If online sales have no sales tax and local sales have a sales tax that is consumer visible - the consumer pays different final prices. What other situation is comparable?

Fair enough. When you said "unfair tax-based advantage," I took that a different way. For me, a tax advantage isn't just sales tax. It's the total package. For example, if a merchant gets several million dollars in tax incentives to build a shopping center (for example, the one located two miles from me that got ~$22M in incentives), then they can conceivably sell products for lower profit for some period of time in order to get people to shop there. So, while sales tax is visible to the consumer, a lower total price is also visible to them. I've purchased items locally that have a lower total price, even though I had to pay sales tax.

Granted, that doesn't mean that tax incentives are unfair. Small businesses get tax incentives to help them compete against larger businesses - perhaps unfair, perhaps not. I guess I was getting at the fact that the government does levy different taxes on different businesses already, and sales tax is just one of those.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Granted, that doesn't mean that tax incentives are unfair. Small businesses get tax incentives to help them compete against larger businesses - perhaps unfair, perhaps not. I guess I was getting at the fact that the government does levy different taxes on different businesses already, and sales tax is just one of those.

Agreed, even on sales tax. Various governments exempt products from sales taxes, like food products and houses, but I'm still unaware of any examples that vary by merchant. The only argument for no internet sales tax has been the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, which was intended to keep states from regulating interstate commerce. Mail order has always been exempted from sales tax, but limited choices, high shipping costs, long latency, and limited selection (and, IMO, historically lower sales taxes) kept the question out of the mainstream political arguments. The internet has pretty much changed everything, so sooner or later it seems like this loophole is going to get closed at the federal level.

 

[Adam]

Various governments exempt products from sales taxes, like food products and houses, but I'm still unaware of any examples that vary by merchant.

I'm also not aware of any sales tax variation based solely on merchant.

Basing whether or not sales tax should be charged on where the online merchant is located, which is already done based on where they have physical stores, is a reasonable approach, IMO. Merchants already do have different sales tax requirments based on their location, as you stated. For example, I can buy products without paying sales tax on the local reservations, even though stores right next door that are in Arizona have to charge it. Folks that live right by New Hampshire (like my brother) can drive a very short distance to buy stuff without sales tax, even though nearby stores in Massachusetts have to charge it.

I certainly haven't thought through all of the variables and ramifications of not charging sales tax for online purchases, though.

 

[fuzz092888]

Basing whether or not sales tax should be charged on where the online merchant is located, which is already done based on where they have physical stores,

Except in NY where the incompetence of the state government means that they have to go money grabbing at every turn to try and balance out their sheer greed and stupidity