Looking for a short but brutal reality check

[Savage40]

I made a previous post about my building of a Home Theater room and was going to buy all Boston Acoustics since I can get wholesale, however, someone here mentioned to look at the Aperion Verus speakers. Well, after much reading on the Verus Forte and Grand Towers, I must say I am impressed with the love these speakers seem to receive from all over.

I am leaning to changing my build to:

Staying with same AVR - Denon AVR3212
As for speakers I am considering:

Front Speakers: 2 Verus Forte Tower Speaker
Center Channel: 1 Verus Forte Center Channel Speaker
Surrounds: 2 Verus Surround Dipole/Bipole Speaker
Rear Surrounds: 2 Verus Forte Satellite Speaker
Sub: FV15 Direct Servo subwoofer from Rythmik. Rythmik Audio • 15" servo subwoofer FV15

This would give me a good receiver with the above listed speakers for $4,406.00

Now, with that said, I am coming from my last system being an Onkyo 7.1 HTIB that I bought about 1.5 years ago for like $500.00

What I am trying to determine is will I be blown away enough with the above specced out gear or should I scrimp and scrape and come up with an additional $1,100 for the Verus Grand Tower package, again replacing their sub for the Rythmik.

Will the first system fill my 16' x 24' media room and do justice to the Epson 6010 projector and 120" screen I am going to be using for that ultimate movie theater experience?

 

[lsiberian]

Bouston Acoustics tend to be good speakers in my experience certainly a big upgrade from Onkyo's. I'd not buy there subs though.

 

[davidtwotrees]

If you are coming from a HTIB, I think you will be blown away by the Verus Forte.
With that said............I firmly believe that the two front speakers make the system.
Perhaps you could skip the Aperion surround speakers and use your Boston Acoustics discount on those 4 speakers. Do the math and see if that savings could be put towards the Verus Grand front towers upgrade. Frankly, I think 5.1 is just fine and 7.1 is just more speakers to buy...................
In closing, YOU CANNOT SPEND ENOUGH MONEY ON FRONT SPEAKERS!

 

[Guinness6]

IWhat I am trying to determine is will I be blown away enough with the above specced out gear or should I scrimp and scrape and come up with an additional $1,100 for the Verus Grand Tower package, again replacing their sub for the Rythmik.

Any way you can compare the two first?

I'm not familiar with either, but my inclanation would always be to save up for the best product you can afford - much better option than going for it now, regretting your purchase & having to start saving from scratch for the Gold Towers...

 

[slipperybidness]

If you are coming from a HTIB, I think you will be blown away by the Verus Forte.
With that said............I firmly believe that the two front speakers make the system.
Perhaps you could skip the Aperion surround speakers and use your Boston Acoustics discount on those 4 speakers. Do the math and see if that savings could be put towards the Verus Grand front towers upgrade. Frankly, I think 5.1 is just fine and 7.1 is just more speakers to buy...................
In closing, YOU CANNOT SPEND ENOUGH MONEY ON FRONT SPEAKERS!

I agree that the front 2 speakers make the system (maybe front 3 for movies, but that's debatable).

More importantly though, I agree with the 7.1 vs 5.1 argument. I suggest to really consider your needs and room size and see if there is any real advantage of 7.1. I had a 7.1 setup for a while, but guess what, true 7.1 mixed sources are few and far between. Most of the time you will probably be using the reciever to make the extra 2 channels from existing 5.1 tracks. From my experience, 5.1 is the way to go. My advice is to take the extra $ from the SBs and put it to the towers.

 

[Savage40]

If you are coming from a HTIB, I think you will be blown away by the Verus Forte.
With that said............I firmly believe that the two front speakers make the system.
Perhaps you could skip the Aperion surround speakers and use your Boston Acoustics discount on those 4 speakers. Do the math and see if that savings could be put towards the Verus Grand front towers upgrade. Frankly, I think 5.1 is just fine and 7.1 is just more speakers to buy...................
In closing, YOU CANNOT SPEND ENOUGH MONEY ON FRONT SPEAKERS!

Well, that is a very good point, if I went with the Verus Grand front towers and the Verus Grand Center and just 1 pair of the Verus Surround Dipole/Bipoles, I would be sitting at a total price with the Denon AR of $4,868.00. Not much more by just cutting out the 7.1 and end up with much better front towers?

Honestly though, I DO NOT HAVE a clue what to expect from any of these. I do know that the money I am spending now is insurance money and I would rather over buy than under buy.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I personally highly approve the redesigned list, Rythimic make some kick *** subs and FV15 is no exception, but FV15HP is even better !

.... to save up for the best product you can afford -

If both product cost same, how one goes on determinate on which one is best other than side by side comparability.

Aperion Verus line received highest praises in many pro reviews including AH one, Boston speaker (technical) reviews are few and between and not very detailed.

Aperion offers 30 day home trial, Boston does not as far as I know, I don't know if OP could possibly return the bostons without heavy penalties...

I agree with fact - OP needs to build a better 5.1 than more and add more speakers later - these would not drastically change the sound, but very mildly improve directional recognition and ambiance .

 

[gotchaforce]

Heres a brutal reality check: verus are really weak for home theater, you cant draw blood from a stone and you cant draw spl and dynamics from a speaker thats designed to be a lifestyle speaker. I'll also weep for your receiver if you buy all verus, because it will be crapping itself whenever you turn up the volume because 90db sensitivity really isnt much

I dont own any elemental design products but if you want to make your theater actually sound like a theater you need to buy high sensitivity speakers with waveguides. Besides the CHT SHO-10 edesign is the only company really offering these

Elemental Designs: Car Stereo, Home Speakers, Electronics

front: ed[c]12 pair
center: ed[c]12
rear: ed[c]6 pair
surround: ed[c]6 pair

Your Package Price
$2290.75

Then i would recommend buying two passive VS18.1 and their amp and running one in each front corner
http://www.chasehometheater.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&category_id=29&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=668&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=135

or maybe just one FV15HP

Seriously, ive had a home theater for about 8 years now and ive heard high efficiency systems, there is no comparison.

 

[sholling]

The revised list looks excellent! That said speakers are highly subjective and no one here can tell you if you will like the Bostons or the Aperions better - some people like Coke best and others will tell you Pepsi rules. I suspect that you'll be happy with either. As for the surrounds I'd try to stay with the same brand but as others have suggested I'd go 5.1 for now and direct that money into bumping up the front three. There isn't much 7.1 material out there and you can always go back and add two more surrounds later. It's the front three plus the subwoofer that are going to be carrying 90% of the load.

As for 90db sensitivity that's actually pretty good. There are really two schools of thought. The school of loud and dynamic vs the school of musical fidelity and detail and the followers of each tend to be fanatical in their opinions. You have to decide what your priorities are. I personally prefer a good music speaker.

 

[gotchaforce]

Wayne parham and gedlee would strongly disagree with you, as would i. Have you heard high efficiency compression driver waveguide speakers? or are you buying into the myth that those cannot provide "musicality"? If you would, please define musical fidelity and why speakers like the verus can provide it and ed cinema cannot

 

[sholling]

Wayne parham and gedlee would strongly disagree with you, as would i. Have you heard high efficiency compression driver waveguide speakers? or are you buying into the myth that those cannot provide "musicality"? If you would, please define musical fidelity and why speakers like the verus can provide it and ed cinema cannot

If hypersensitivity and musical fidelity were were doable on a consumer budget everyone would be making nothing but 100db@1w speakers. Personally I have lived with Klipsch La Scalas and have yet to hear an ultra high sensitivity speaker in the same price class that I like nearly as well as my moderately sensitive speakers. Different strokes. But as I pointed out there are two schools of thought and as you have demonstrated with your response the followers are fanatical and will brook no heresy from their faith in LOUD.

BTW I'm not seeing a sensitivity rating on the eDs.

 

[gotchaforce]

Weird how im being labeled a "fanatic" for merely asking why a high efficiency speaker cant provide "musical fidelity" (your statement)

One way you could define musical fidelity is how a waveguide can help control directivity between a woofer and compression driver.. doh, your speakers dont have that

There are more benefits than just high sensitivity when dealing with wave guides.

Youre correct that drivers like the d220ti made of titanium can be harsh, and that a $50 silk dome tweeter wouldnt be so "harsh", so i guess entry level stuff is cheaper.

Doesnt matter though, hes driving this off a 3xxx denon receiver... the amp will be pushing out SO MUCH distortion when trying to power 7 verus speakers it will be sad

edit: and i have speakers with high end aurum cantus ribbon tweeter (G2) that i use for music sometimes, its nice, but if i had to choose between one speaker to do it all id go for high efficiency waveguides. If the OP tends to listen to a lot of music, then go for whatever, but if he wants speakers to compliment a 120" screen with epson 6010 he is barking up the wrong tree by looking at verus. PERIOD

 

[sholling]

Weird how im being labeled a "fanatic" for merely asking why a high efficiency speaker cant provide "musical fidelity" (your statement)

I never said that a high sensitivity speaker can't provide musical fidelity I just haven't heard one that did or at least one that I liked. If the technology were there everybody would be making them. Then again I haven't heard every speaker either and listening to a Gedlee and a JTR Triple 8 are definitely on my bucket list. My point was that there are differing expectations and tastes ("different strokes"). If you'll recall what I actually said I said that that there are two schools of thought and the followers of each tend to be fanatical. My response to your second post was simply an amused reaction to the way you pounced.

As for driving a 7.1 system with a 125w Denon receiver it shouldn't have any problem reaching levels that most people listen at. Again different strokes but the number of times that Blu-Ray is going to ask the receiver to send more than a fraction of its potential output to all speakers at once is pretty low and something that was covered here. Now if he were trying to blast stereo music at full tilt volume out of 7 channels at once your point might be valid.

As I said there are two schools of thought and one fits your expectations and makes you happy and that's really all that matters. The other fits my expectations and makes me happy. Both are valid because our tastes and expectations are different.

 

[timoteo]

The Verus are made for home theater use. Hence the tower/center/bookshelf combo. 90dB is normal. My B&Ws range between 89-91dB & even my old Denon-889(2309) did great with grtting them loud without distorting. That matching up of the 3322 & Verus are totally good to go. Now if you get them all hooked up & find that you want the volume higher than the 3312 can cleanly go then just add an Emotiva XPA3 or 5. Your 3312 has preouts so you can do that.

The FV-15 is a great choice!! I own its competition (VTF-15h) & its amazing. The FV-15 & VTF-15h were compared & reviewed on AVS "Shootout" & both got similar reviews. Both were raved about.

To decide between the FV-15 or FV-15HP youd need to measure your room & any space its open to (ie hallways, closets, other rooms). Then call Rythmik. They'll tell you which model you need. When i was looking for a sub i called them & they said i wouldnt need the HP version. You may though depending on space.

Ive heard a couple peoples different Onkyo HTIB systems before, this system your putting together WILL blow it out into space! Serious!!

Not trying to change your mind on that great sub but have you considered the VTf-15H? Its a bit cheaper & yet in the shootout, the Rythmik bottomed out & the 15h couldnt (in max output mode), the sound quality was equally great & the 15h had more tactile effect. Just thought id let you know. Either way they are both wonderful subs!!

My opinion on waveguided speakers is that most ive heard have too much of an in your face, screamy sound. Not saying all do, thats just my personal experience. Im not against a modest waveguide but a full on horn doesnt interest me.

+1 about not going 7.1 right now. Concentrate on 5.1 or even 3.1 for now!

If i were you id get a pair of Salk Songtowers & the Salk matching center. Pair those with a VTf-15h or FV-15 & you will be beyond blown away IMHO. You can always add surrounds later if the buget wont allow them now. The Verus are really good speakers from what ive read but i drool over the Salks ...

 

[gotchaforce]

two 90db verus = 93db at 1w at 1m, lets assume his listening position is 4meters away (120" screen remember)... now for 1 watt you have the verus pair producing a 93db - 6db - 6db -6db = 75db!!!

2w = 78
4w = 81
8w = 84
16w = 87
32w = 90
64w = 93
128w = 96

Ill just suspend disbelief and say the denon can do 128w into two channels at once without clipping or SUPER distorting... Problem is wheres your headroom? Optimus prime just dropped a car on some guy, you needed 10db of headroom and your amp huffed and puffed and only got you 100db... weak.

 

[sholling]

I just broke out my handy dandy SPL meter and confirmed what I already knew - watching a movie much past 80db is unpleasantly loud - at least for me, but loud isn't my thing. I generally prefer movie dialog around 75db at my seating position and TV dialog below 70db. Again different strokes. If volume levels are the priority then you have a point. I just don't listen that loud.

 

[timoteo]

I have never sat with my SPL meter in hand & measured during a movie to see what volume i actually enjoy (in dBs). I can say that when i run YPAO it sets my mains at 0dB, surrounds & center at -1dB. I turn each trim down by 3dB effectively making my master volume of 0dB actually down at -3dB from reference. When i sit & listen to most movies i have the master set between -3&-6dB. Actual REFERENCE to me is very loud. Unless im a 6pack of Bud deep i typically dont listen that loud.

Remeber too that those numbers that were listed in the previous post (watts=dB) are not including room gain. Those are numbers bases on chamber tests.

Most modern receivers can power the typical 90dB rated speaker to levels higher than most listen. Yes that is a pretty vague statement so take it for what it is but its true.

 

[GranteedEV]

I made a previous post about my building of a Home Theater room and was going to buy all Boston Acoustics since I can get wholesale, however, someone here mentioned to look at the Aperion Verus speakers. Well, after much reading on the Verus Forte and Grand Towers, I must say I am impressed with the love these speakers seem to receive from all over.

TO be honest, i've yet to see any polar response graphs of these (off-axis frequency response to +/-60 degrees horizontally and +/-15 degrees vertically). You'd be better off getting speakers from brands like Harman, Genelec, KEF, and Pioneer, that focus on smooth off-axis response rather than just flat on axis.

Put some serious thought into something like the KEF Q900s or JBL LSR 6332. Speakers that interact with the room in a predictably and controlled manner aren't a bad idea, at least. Especially if you find yourself sitting well into the far field where reflected sound will dominate what you hear!

I don't mean to knock aperion mind you. They might be fine speakers - I just don't pay a world of attention to subjective opinions because people like what they own. Don't overspend on surrounds BTW. I think you could spend a total of $500 on four decent surrounds and be VERY happy!

 

[Savage40]

TO be honest, i've yet to see any polar response graphs of these (off-axis frequency response to +/-60 degrees horizontally and +/-15 degrees vertically). You'd be better off getting speakers from brands like Harman, Genelec, KEF, and Pioneer, that focus on smooth off-axis response rather than just flat on axis.

Put some serious thought into something like the KEF Q900s or JBL LSR 6332. Speakers that interact with the room in a predictably and controlled manner aren't a bad idea, at least. Especially if you find yourself sitting well into the far field where reflected sound will dominate what you hear!

I don't mean to knock aperion mind you. They might be fine speakers - I just don't pay a world of attention to subjective opinions because people like what they own. Don't overspend on surrounds BTW. I think you could spend a total of $500 on four decent surrounds and be VERY happy!

Thanks for the response, however, I am going to have to do some Googling and reading just to understand half of what you said. lol Not that you weren't clear and know what you are talking, but I am that much of a noon to all of this to understand what polar response graphs are etc.

Also, I am so glad I found these forums. I used to think that the surrounds were one of the most important things for surround sound. I did not realize how much emphasis needs to be placed on the front mains.

With what I have learned so far here, I have now committed myself to spending about $2000 on the front mains, I just have not decided which ones yet.

 

[lsiberian]

The JBL LSRs are certainly amazing speakers. I think JTRs are also worth a look if you need headroom. Get an SPL meter and see what level you prefer then make selections based on that. Often times 90db is plenty 105db is the reference target.